Crooks who can't be nailed.

... Yet.

It really irks me when I see a situation, or am informed of a situation where it's obvious that someone got ripped off and ripped off hard by a real scumbucket... But because I wasn't involved in the transaction, it's not my place to throw a BOI post up about it.

It's worse of course when it's someone I personally know who gets ripped off and then doesn't want to talk about it because they've been flim-flammed into silence by a fast talking dirtball, but it's irritating even when it's someone I have never met in person.

I've seen it more than a few times, especially online, where there seem to be a great many people who are just innocently naive and like to send their money/animals to the criminals in the hobby... They enter a chatroom or an internet forum later and describe their transaction but seem unwilling to take real action against the person who ripped them off, if they even realize they were taken.

The most reccent example of this, and the one that got me kinda ticked off this morning, happened when a dealer traded a kid... a KID, a normally smart kid, but still limited experience... His crappy, non-feeding, blister diseased, scale rotting, massively underweight Candoia for the kid's immaculate PET cornsnake... Sure, the kid was willing to trade and thought he was getting rarer snakes for his common one, but the dealer gave him animals which are about 95% likely to die within the next month and a half.

Once again, I can't make it my business to the point of starting a BOI thread but I was hoping that if a few responses were posted here with the thoughts of other dealers, breeders and hobbiests, it might convince the ripee to let it be known who took him.

In the following picture, there are three points circled which are of particular interest, a second picture will be added in a reply post so that people can see the snakes without the red circles covering parts.

Area 1- A large spot of puckered and raised scales, one of many but a particularly distinct one. Without seeing the animal in person, an exact cause is unknown, but it certainly LOOKS like the snake has been sitting in a substrate which is both too wet and potentially containing feces... probably the feces of another snake, neither of these look like they've had a meal in their life.

Area 2- Like area one, just another more distinct patch of the puckered scales which seem to cover the entire snake.

Area 3- The second snake, specifically illustrating a point where the snake's girth can be seen. Yes, neonate candoia can be tough to get feeding and they grow out a bit before they become the fat, pissy little guys we all enjoy but this snake has clearly LOST weight since it was dropped, since brand new hatchlings are not even that skinny.

A second picture, a bit further out and without the circles I added...

Pay close attention to the size of the snake's body in relation to the heads. Once again, I've owned and seen many neonate Candoia and had a few drop myself... While their proportions are nowhere near those of adult animals, and paulsoni can be a bit thinner than say... aspera... the animal's head should not look like it makes up one third of the total weight.

Obviously the specifics are going to be a bit hazy, since I'm in a somewhat tied position or trying to get some information out while keeping it... not exactly unbiased, but without naming names.

If anyone has some opinions of the transaction and the condition of those snakes, which were traded for a healthy, feeding, quality cornsnake, agreeing with me or not... Please post them. My hope really is that the individual involved with the purchase can be shown exactly what happened to him and perhaps prompt a BOI post.

As a small note... I didn't get permission to post the pictures here. I don't think the owner will have any problems with their use BUT... if he does, I may have to ask Rich to scrap the thread.

Thanks in advance to anyone who responds.

I cant even imagine what he's gonna feed them IF he can get them on the road to any kind of recovery...the smallest of small frogs/lizards/skinks? Just a disclaimer I have no experience with Candoia but they dont look like they have a weeks worth of life left in them; they do not look good in those pics. Seamus, maybe a phone call by you directly to the breeder to appeal to his (if he has one) sense of decency to just give the kid a break and reverse that trade...What a bummer, especially being the season it is. Hope y'all get that squared away...if you don't i'd love to donate a pair of corns to him if he'd like...thats a suck@ss move there :*(

Seamus.... the ONLY chance this kid has of keeping them alive is to make a lizard/pinkie/frog STEW (fortified with vitamins and calcium), and squirt it down their throats with an eye-dropper.... they will NOT eat on their own at this point....
You really SHOULD tell him to post on the BOI....

Neil

I agree fully Seamus, he should really post what happened.
That dealer had no morals at all sending those snakes out, and in my opinion your month and a half of life is being very optimistic.

Neil is right as well, there's no way those snakes, especially the thinnest one will ever eat on it's own. I don't know the kid involved, but I'd be willing to bet he doesn't have the knowledge and skill to save either of them. I would seriously doubt my own ability to save them.
The dealer knew exactly what he was doing, and he blantantly ripped him off. If he'd traded those two snakes for a single fresh caught green anole he would have still been ripping him off.
It sickens me that there are those in the hobby who are totally void of decency and without care take advantage of someone like that.

That kid was TOTALLY taken advantage of Seamus. Those babies are knocking on deaths door, hard.

It's not the kids fault he got taken, at least I don't think it is as Seamus has backed this kid up. The person who made the trade is obviously just trying to make a quick buck and dump some animals that he KNEW were going to die soon. That sucks.

I hope your friend sees this Seamus and comes on the BOI and exposes this lowlife to those who read here. People like that shoud be brought before public scrutiny as soon as the crawl out from under their rocks, no insult to legitamite under-rock dwellers intended.

Wes Pollock

Im the one with the candoias, thanks Seamus allot for doing this, really, it had to take allot of time to edit the picture and write this post. Thanks and thanks for giving a care.

Any how, it was a bad move, I was stuped to have done it, but I had been with this guy all day and have read his posts for the past year or so, and seemed like a real nice decent guy that could be trusted. So I took his word for it when he said they were eating pinkey parts, and figured I could get them to eat and safe them. But I was stuped, luckly I dident give him any money, one of my CBB 2003 corn babies, which I put a heck of time into this progect, and got them to a whopping 24 grams inless then 4 months old. Any how, if you all would like more pictures or any thing, let me know. Also thanks allot for this! What would you recomend doing next? My first goal is to try and to safe the snakes, and I have some experence, not allot, but some with working with my first ATB litter which I took bad care of being my first snake to breed, and they all had RI and stuck sheds which I had to work out. Any how, I take much better care of my herps and do daily cage cleanings and very close records.
Any how
Thanks!
Philip

Post the whole thing including the guys contact information over on the BOI. Tell him what you would like him to do and then see if he does.

Be sure to include his name, business name and phone number as well as any email address you have.

If you could copy and paste anything to document what he was supposed to send you and what you were supposed to send him that would be helpful as well.

Wes Pollock

Philip,
I really do hope you post this on the BOI. Those snakes are in horrible shape and should never have been traded to you. You would be helping others out for the future by posting there.
You seem to have a good friend in Seamus, trust him to help you out with this.
And most of all, good luck in your efforts to try to save those snakes!

Just a up date.... Both snakes have died..... No parasites, no treatments, every meal has been turned down, Seamus has given me great advice on force feeding them and was about to, but to late. I am now trying to contact this guy, he had untill the 15 to respond, if he doesent resond by then I will send him a e-mail stating he has till the 20th to respond or I will take it to the BOI. Im hoping to work this out in peace, but I might have to take it over. Im asking for a refund now, im safeing all e-mails and PMS. Also im taking allot of pictures, and have the times each one died, and have them in the freazer.
THanks for reading.

Hey Phillip,

Sorry to hear about your snakes, that really sucks. Can't say it was unexpected though.

If this guy you got them from was quick to respond before you made the trade, pm'ing and emailing you in a timely fashion then I don't see much reason to wait until the 20th. The 15th seems to be plenty of time for him to decide whether or not to do the right thing.

Besides, I'm curious and don't want to wait that long. Unless there is some reason why he should have so long to get his story together I think you should forge ahead.

Wes Pollock

I bought them at the show, but the guy is well known there and well known on line. He has all ways been slow to post and respond to e-mails or PMs. Usally takes him a few days, he has till the 15 till I will try calling him or e-mailing "threats" to put it up on the BOI by the 20th.
Thanks for your time and help!

I can't wait to see what that losers excuses are for letting snakes go in that condition, and I would also like to know how they came to look that wretched in the first place.

Good luck Phillip.

Phillip,

I was filled in a little more recently by a "troll" over at the Reptile Room, and thanks by the way "troll" which is rich considering who that is coming from.

I seriously doubt that you will hear anything but excuses from this guy. I'm sorry to see that you had anything to do with him at all.

Good luck and I would post by the 15th were I you.

Wes Pollock

Philip
1st thing bud , Your not stupid !!!
Even smart people get taken so do not cut yourself short.
As far as your situation goes, the person that traded you these animals KNEW what he was doing, and that was taking advantage of you and your limited years. It's just that simple.
Giving him till the 15th to do or say whatever puts you years ahead of him in compassion and humanity.
Personally I would throw this guy to the dirty dozen and the dogs of the BOI because he flat out wrong.
Gotta wonder how many of those candoia went to other people, having bred them before they birth many.

Definitely in agreement with John on this one...I think someone who area of expertise was Candoia would not have had much of a chance saving those guys, so don't think your stupid for not being able to keep them alive...Giving him til Monday is very lenient (jmho)...Hope he makes it right.



"Cry havoc...and let loose the dogs of the BOI..."

I've produced and seen literally hundreds of neonate Candoia. Generally, Carinata/Paulsoni are proportionately longer in body size than those pictured. These may have come from a females first clutch and therefore, smaller and not as well formed or....they may have been some of the "runts' from the litter. No Candoia should be sold until they are on rodents or sold only to experienced persons. We have always had to scent them over with small frogs or geckos. Some don't ever seem to "go over" to feeding on rodents well. Either way the specimens pictured have some serious problems. JMHO

Phillip, please pos this guys infor on the BOI.

I'm not sure if he's going to be back or not to post the conclusion of his transaction...

The snakes died, as predicted.

The other party was contacted, a refund was issued.

How much the refund was for, if it consisted of the animals which had otherwise changed hands and how much of it was due solely to avoid an all out bad guy thread I don't know... Just know that there was a post on another forum about this issue stating that it had been resolved.