Lending Boa out for breeding was a mistake I guess

delivered it seems.
I lent her a light cream colored Male Circle backed BCI from December 2001 through April 2002 [ When i had to send someone to her home to "collect" my male boa back as he had not been returned as promised by that point] for the purpose of breeding with her female boas she has.

This is a pic of two boas that were placed together for mating taken by her in her home. The lighter one is my male and the other one of her females.

Pic taken in March i believe.

This is a copy of a post made by her on www.redtailboa.net

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Posted: Mar 24, 2002 - 10:52 AM By Boababe : I DO NOT have a huge breeding project going on. I have one gravid almost completely circlebacked BCI that was mated with a circleback I borrowed from Lori for the purpose of breeding. This is the only rescue I have or ever intend on breeding. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
That post is in this looong thread... HERE somewhere.

I recently received some info that Rachel has had a clutch of baby boas and there are circle backs in the clutch also as well. Upon further looking into the matter, it was found that there had indeed actually been two clutches born of her female boas , One in June, 17 babies, and the other On September 6 , 25 babies, of this year of course hehe.

I sent her email regarding what has taken place in regards to the oputcome of the breeding done by my male boa. She did not respond to it at all until I placed a post on a forum and let her know that I had found out about the clutches. [ Yeah, there were multiple posts made by multiple people on that forum under alias' in order to get the info related to the clutches Rachel had had. A lot of people did not think that she would be forthcoming with the info if it was known exactly who was asking for the info, including myself. That's why it was done like that.].
I also posted for her on MOI asking about clutches from the breedings. That got deleted of course as she is a moderator on there it is believed is the reasoning for such deletion. I also sent Joe Brant an email asking him to pass the inquiry on to Rachel too.
This is the email that I sent Joe Brant and the inquiry I had made of her both in email and in forums..

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Could you please pas this message on to Rachel. I posted it on quite a
> few different forums ol to make sure she gets it. it also has been posted
> on your forums on your site as well. For some reason or other it is
> believed that she may just ignore what's being aksed and delete the post.
> I am hoping that your moderator has more "ethics" than doing such a thing
> without responding to the question at hand at this time though. No matter
> what has transpired between her and I , she does and should have a moral
> level of ethics to folow through on the agreement which had been made
> between us in relation to this breeding of her female baos. TYIA....
>
> LORI KEHOE

Here's the message...
>
> there is no longer a forum on this site for "general" talk so i am
> placing this here where you will see it. I already sent you an email in
> regards to the "issue" but here's what it is basically....
>
> Must have had baby boas by now...
> From one of your females , at least, that you mated with my male that you
> borrowed from me. Been long enough for that 1 female that was gravid from
> him to have to have clutched out even already. Soo how many babies were
> there and when and how ya wanna handle getting them to me ? Billy will
> pick them up np for me even. Would prefer that to shipping them anyways.
> We agreed on 50/50 on the babies but never discussed the shipping of them
> or just how I was going to get the 50% that are coming to me.
>
> this is directly from you in regards to at least one gravid female from
> the breeding with my male : [ Taken from one of your RTB posts]
>
> </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Posted: Mar 24, 2002 - 10:52 AM By Boababe : I DO NOT have a huge
> breeding project going on. I have one gravid almost completely
> circlebacked BCI that was mated with a circleback I borrowed from Lori
> for the purpose of breeding. This is the only rescue I have or ever
> intend on breeding. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

this is the reply I got from Joe Brant on that email...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Lori,
You will not post this type of garbage on my site. Please
inform me of what other sites that you have posted these libelous remarks
on, as I would like to have these other sites that you have spread these
vicious and malicious
remarks on, for Rachel to give to her attorney, should she follow my
recommendation that she follows through with a law suit against you. The
term is "liable," and you will be known as the "Defendant." Save this for a
court of law, if you have enough money to hire an attorney. Believe me, if
you continue to slander her name, you'll need plenty of money.
As for my site. You are banned forever. I don't need your business.
Should you persist, then I will black list you with many suppliers, and you
will have difficulty buying rodents at other than retail prices. That is all
I'll write. Forget this vendetta you have waged against Rachel. You can
not afford the consequences. Rachel has done an outstanding job for me.
Sincerely,
Joe Brant
Mice on Ice</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>


OH and did I mention that Rachel had stated that one of her females was gravid from my male boa at all yet ?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have one gravid almost completely circlebacked BCI that was mated with a circleback I borrowed from Lori for the purpose of breeding. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'> That was on Posted: Mar 24, 2002 - 10:52 AM By Boababe [ Boababe aka Rachel Rodgers fyi]

MANY people knew of what the agreement was in regards to the lending of my male to her.

50/50 on any / all clutches that came of such.

In a nutshell here's the reply that Rachel has made in regards to any clutches from this breeding of my male with her females. [ I told her she could breed him with up to 4 females only while she had him ] ...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This clutch is NOT (I hope you can hear this)
NOT FROM YOUR BOA. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

NOTE : She had 2 clutches that I found out about , YET only has referneced one of them in what she said there as not being from my male.

She also denies any agreement in the area of 50/50 on the babies resulting from the breeding of my male to her females too..

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Show me a post, e-mail, or ANYTHING that shows I agreed to a 50/50 split
of the babies. ......Who is their right mind would take a male boa from
anyone for 5 months, house it, feed it, along with the gravid boa, house
and feed all the babies, and then agree to a 50/50 split? </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Of course I trusted her at the time of lending her the male in regards to the agreement of 50/50 which MANY others knew about also even. [ Ritchie Luna for one knew of it also and even noted such is this thread HERE. in relation to this matter.
Sorry..looong thread on that one and a lot of BS mixed into it as well.

Hmm.. Who in their right mind would think that they wouldn't need to house and feed a boa they were borrowing for breeding for the length of time which they had it ??

House and feed all the babies ? Hmm.. When agreements such as this one are followed through with , I would generally take my 50% and feed them myself once they clutch. After all, it's not like I need the "mom" boa to keep the babies like I would if it were a dog or such and needed her in order to nurse the babies....


Soo.. Rachel by her own claim has had at least one female that was bred and gravid by my male, YET she claims that she owes me nothing.....OH and IF that clutch from June of 17 was from my male, then from my understanding, she has already sold them at whole sale too. AND she never contacted me to say that they had been clutched either at all.

Note : There's a lot of history involved here between Rachel and I that didn't go well for her at all. But that doesn't nullify her responsibility any in regards to following through on any agreement in regards to any clutches produced as a result of her females breeding with my male. OR am I missing something here and it does <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>?

This is in resoponse to Rahcel's question
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Who is their right mind would take a male boa from
anyone for 5 months, house it, feed it, along with the gravid boa, house and feed all the babies, and then agree to a 50/50 split? </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Maybe it is just me...but
I am getting an albino male boa on breeding loan.
I agreed to a 50/50 split.  I am gonna feed it. I am gonna house it. AND If it needs vet care I would take care of the vet bills.  I am also taking care of all shipping of the male and his babies.  And if it perishes in my care....I owe him an albino male.

I also have granite burms on loan.  I am responsible for their care.  The babies we will have are also 50/50 split.  And I am also fully responsible for this pair.


and to Joe Brant of Mice on Ice
I do not think you know the meaning of the words libel and slander.  Telling the truth is not libel and slander.  Lori is telling the truth.  However Rachel sure is not...you can tell by the quotes.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Posted: Mar 24, 2002 - 10:52 AM By Boababe : I DO NOT have a huge breeding project going on. I have one gravid almost completely circlebacked BCI that was mated with a circleback I borrowed from Lori for the purpose of breeding. This is the only rescue I have or ever intend on breeding. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This clutch is NOT (I hope you can hear this)
NOT FROM YOUR BOA. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>


Joe Brant of Mice on Ice get your head out of your @SS.  Your webpage says you do not tolerate anyone adopting animals and turning around and selling them to make a quick buck.   I witnessed your moderator Rachel do this.  She deleted all evidence.  And you are still taking her side in this matter.........Can we say HYPOCRITE?

I do not know about Rachael, but JOE BRANT sounds like a class A jerk! A blacklist so she has to pay retail for mice? What a power trip!

Lori,

All I can say is THAT SUCKS!  I can't believe the nerve of some people.  All this over half of 2 litters? Thats small thinking on behalf of the borrower.

And as far as Mr. Brant, thats just plain ignorance.  I have many friends that I would consider near and dear to me.  However, I would never blindly defend someone because they do "an outstanding job for me".  Rachael clearly stated in her own words that she had the male on loan.  Worst case scenario is that she should return the borrowed animal at her cost.

Too bad all the evidence was posted from the horses mouth before she decided to play like this.....

There is quite a lot of evidence from Rachel herself and quite enough to nail her in a court of law.

Afterall, the most damning would be from the expert witnesses that I'm sure of, when they see all the posts in relation would be able to say that Rachel Rodgers is in fact lying.

That really sucks, Lori.  I've read a number of the dealings with Rachel on RTB and can't say that I am surprised by her actions.  I am surprised though by Joe's reaction.  I have dealt with him in the past as my rodent supplier and he was always prompt and coureous with service and delivered quality feeders.  I personally don't care for the MOI adoption forum, however, because of my own experiences with trying to get an animal that was up for adoption.  Anyway, hopefully you will get your portion of the litter or the monetary equivilant.  For your sake, I hope you are able to collect, but it seems that is unlikely given Rachel's attitude and commentary.  This is one of the many reasons I don't loan my animals out to someone I'm not close to both in physical location as well as being a personal friend.

On a side note, I had decided long ago from reading about Rachel to never do business with her or adopt any animals from her site because of her apparent like of ethics and lack of ability to provide proper care for some of the animals in her charge.  This is just another example of why to avoid the woman.  After reading Joe's comments, I don't believe I will be doing any further business with him nor recommending his company to any of my herping friends.  His comments show a lack of restraint and obviously he is unable to remain professional if he chooses to threaten someone in the manner he did regarding the supply of feeders or a lawsuit.  Lori, if you've been using him as your supplier, I would strongly suggest you switch to rodentpro or another provider (personally I believe rodentpro is AWESOME to deal with and quality to match).

Best of luck,

Dianne

I agree about Rodentpro, I was very impressed.

As far as Joe Brant is concerned, what a dickweed.  He was simply asked to relay a message to Rachel since she refused to answer Lori directly and deleted any of the posts she made to get her attention.  He was very rude and his response served no purpose and he had no place to make it.  If he wasn't comfortable or just didn't want to relay the message, he should have said so and been done with it.  However, now I know ONE company I will NOT send any business to, Mice On Ice.  And please, blacklist Lori from buying wholesale rodents, yeah right.  Is Joe short with a pointy hat?  Because that makes me think Napoleon syndrome, but maybe it's just me

As for Rachel, are you nuts or just dumb?  You have already admitted to having a female that was gravid by Lori's male.  And NOW when it is time for Lori to collect her half of the babies, "oh no, that isn't from your male."  I highly doubt that Lori would lend you her nice circleback male without expecting some sort of compensation for it.  You wouldn't have ANY babies if it weren't for her lending you that male.  And not only are you not giving her any of the babies/moneys due to her, it sounds like you attempted to keep her male for yourself as well.  That is pretty crass.  

Lori, good luck in getting what you are owed.  Even if you don't get instant satisfaction, just remember, karma baby

Lori,

Heres a hint for you:

   Only do breeding loans with close personal friends.
   If you dont you take the chance of reintrocduceing lovely new diseases into your collection. How can you verify how clean they keep their cahes, how well they feed them and how well they quarantine them, if you cant even go over their house to check on it? Yes, we buy snakes all the time under these auspsicous conditons, but if it is ALLREADY in your house, then why take the chances, to produce some regular colombians? Even good ones? Next time just pick up a female or male and do it yourself. Trust no one.

Fred
(Aztec Reptiles)

I mailed Joe as well and he threatened me with the 'slander' thing.
He also has a habit of sending out emails with off color jokes and porn pics.

He sent me two dirty pics just today in reply to my mail.

Joe Brant better acquire a taste for frozen mice.  

If that is the level of his interest shown toward doing "the right thing" in a situation, he may well have to blacklist us all.  Then, no money is coming in for him, and it's mouse burgers for Joe!

I can't believe someone would be stupid enough to post that their babies WERE produced by a male on loan and then post later that they WERE NOT produced by that male.  The picture alone shows that the animals were together in Rachel's house!  How lame!

Lori, keep your chin up.  Even if you don't get anything out of this loan, at least you have your male back.  Also, you did us all a great service by posting the matter here, showing us not one, but two people to stay away from.  Thanks!

<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

Rachel is a pathological liar.  I have quite a collection of her lies documented and this is only a sample of what she is about.  Many of us have butted heads with her and have had bad dealings and are quite frankly fed up with her on many levels.

Joe?  LOL...what do you call wholesale anyway?  You are the highest priced rodent dealer on the net.  Rodentpro and Cajunmice have you beat hands down.  Blacklist me all you want.  I can't afford your inflated prices anyway.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I will black list you with many suppliers, and you
will have difficulty buying rodents at other than retail prices</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

JOE BRANT of MiceOnIce.com
I can't believe those words cam out of you.
You have just lost tons of business.
Your mice are one of the most expensive out there.
I personally currently recommend RodentPro.com.
They are much nicer.  And if there is a problem they correct it.
I DO NOT RECOMMEND your company MiceOnIce.com simply because of your BAD ATTITUDE

With you if there is a problem you seem to bring up lawsuits and you also seem to bring up the only two "law" words you know, libel and slander.

JOE BRANT of MiceOnIce.com What you said is BAD

p.s.  Little hint Joe.  You will have a hard time black listing someone from your competitors.


To everyone...If you e-mail Joe...you will automatically be added to his e-mail junk list.  You will start receiving Junk Mail from him.

Joe get me off your list.  I do not like your Junk Mail.  And if your Junk e-mails are a reflection of your business.....fill in the blank

Make no mistake about it, Rachel did indeed screw Lori on this mattter- her own words provide the "smoking gun". The odds are that Lori will never get the neonates that she's owed, but we now know that there's two more people in this business that should be avoided:

1) Rachel Rodgers, who- like so many others, was ensnared by her own words. Also, let's examine a little something that Rachel said:
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Who is their right mind would take a male boa from
anyone for 5 months, house it, feed it, along with the gravid boa, house and feed all the babies, and then agree to a 50/50 split? </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
    a) The only reason that the male was in your care for five months is because you failed to return it on time.
    b) Animals are often out on breeding loan for many months at a time- sometimes even years. During that time, it's up to the person or institution housing the pair to provide for their care. Offspring are nearly always split 50/50. In the event of an odd number of offspring, the extra one generally goes to the owner of the female.

Joe Brant- who really needs to get over himself. Banned from your site Joe? You may want to go ahead and ban me as well, because, after reading those emails, I'm left with the impression that you actively condone theft by deception.

Also, let's consider your comment about "having difficulty buying rodents at other than retail prices". Isn't that pretty much close to what your customers pay anyways? Your rodents are consistently more expensive (up to twice as much) than others, such as Rodentpro and The Mouse Factory- both of whom I'd recommend over you.

Finally, I'd recommend adding one more "rule" to your Adoption Connection forum...
7. Any factual posts that call a moderator's integrity into question will be deleted by that moderator. Our moderators are angelic, and would never scam someone, despite evidence to the contrary.

Cheers,
Ken Harbart

Wow, this guy must be pretty powerful to blacklist someone from the whole hobby.  Ill make sure i dont anger him.  

I use rodent pro and i have had no problems at all and have nothing but good to say about them.

It seems shady when someone deletes posts from an open forum (as long as the post does not conflict with the forum rules).

Justin Wilson

Fred..

Yeah I know that ! I thought I had known her well, guess i was mistaken on that one a bit for awhile. Once I found out/ figured out what was going on in regards to other stuff. I had to "bite my tongue" for quite a long time even in fact in order to assure that I got my male boa back in fact. Until that time I didn't say much and was getting emails, pms, ims and the like from many people asking "why haven't you put your two-cents in on what's going on in regards to Rachel and what she has been up to?" Once I got my male back, I did ! AND It was with the facts, which can NOT be termed as libel and or slander [ ALL backed up with fact ]. I'd want the same thing of anything someone else had to say in regards to me. Ya got no facts?? Then keep your mouth shut is all ! Isn't that what anyone would want or expect even ? It's not asking for much at all IMO.

As far as MOI goes...

Like I said elsewhere...
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">LMAO Ted!!  I doubt he could even do such a thing hehe. But for the record.. I do NOT get my rodentia from Rodentpro even though I fully endorse them 110% for feeders. Only reason being ..I have a GREAt supplier that fullfills my rodentis needs that is basically local to where I live..and their price can NOT be beat hehe. [ They do me a favor on pricing due to the rescue that I do with reptiles is it actually hehe]

I used MOI awhile back.. AND ONLY once at that. AND Here's ALL I am saying in regards to that even...

Rodent Pro is the way to go !</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

RODENT PRO

Allthough I most likely will not see any of those babies from clutching or monies for such from Rachel..I still have faith in most of humanity involved in the reptile world as to their honesty etc. Experience, learn and move on I guess....

Joe Brant.. You can also take me OFF your junk mail list for that crap you are sending out too ! I don't need it at all either !

BTW.. Julius... You need to place your full name when posting on this board here. His full Name is Brett Gardner. Was first post and am sure he "missed" that note regarding such or forgot. I'll let him know about it though.

hehe OK...sorry...My name is Brett Gardin actually.  I do not tend gardens.  Gardin is a french name meaning Studmuffin I think.

I wrote to Rachel, trying to get her to respond in someway.  I just received this email from Rachel.  It reads:

>Rachel, I do not know you, but if there is some way that Lori is wrong about this, why not show it to everyone?  

Simply because I don't have the energy or time to sit on my computer all day digging up old posts and e-mails. I've got better things to do with my time.

>Why delete messages she posted without answering them?  

Because she posted this message on a board where it breaks the rules. I'm not going to further break the rules just to make her happy. I replied to her in e-mail.

>Why not just give her half the clutch her male sired?  If she's a liar, you need to out her for it.  If she's not, you need to do theright thing.

I asked her for a post or an e-mail where I made that agreement. She won't have one because that agreement was never made. Who in their right mind would house and feed both parent boas and all the babies and then agree to half???!! All she did was have one less snake to feed for 4 months, I did all the work and put out all the $$ to make it happen. BTW, that pic that's being tossed around of "her" boa and mine breeding is 2 of my FEMALE snakes...lol! Check out other pics of Sidney and Aprodite in my photo album <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>


Thanks,
Rachel Rodgers

_

Now, in case anyone missed it, she said,

"BTW, that pic that's being tossed around of "her" boa and mine breeding is 2 of my FEMALE snakes...lol! Check out other pics of Sidney and Aprodite in my photo album <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>"  

She didn't say where her photo album could be found.  I checked printroom.com and didn't find anything there.  I have no reason to believe Rachel on this, but I thought you all might like to know that this is what she's putting out now!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Who in their right mind would house and feed both parent boas and all the babies and then agree to half???!! </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Umm Rachelle I have said it before.
Someone else has said it before...
That is the going rate.  50/50
Ask anyone who has breeding loans going.

I have a breeding loan going with Kim...Well I did until I decided to sell my male to her...But it was for 50/50

I have two breeding loans with Mark.  The deal is 50/50

I am getting an albino male boa on breeding loan from a gentlemen in Kentucky. The deal is 50/50

I am also borrowing this albino male boa from my friend who lives down a couple blocks....the deal is 50/50.

Ask anyone else here with breeding loans from other people.
I bet the deal is 50/50.  If not then it is close

Lori,

I know it will be difficult, because the male is covered up by the female in that first pic you posted, but could you post another picture of your male?  That way, maybe we could see clearly enough to determine that it IS your snake in there with one of Rachel's females?  Then, she would have to take back what she wrote to me or be branded an absolute liar.

Is this possible for you do for us all?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Simply because I don't have the energy or time to sit on my computer all day digging up old posts and e-mails. I've got better things to do with my time.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Devising more scams? Or trying to sell/adopt out animals and give improper care info?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Because she posted this message on a board where it breaks the rules. I'm not going to further break the rules just to make her happy. I replied to her in e-mail.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Ah yes, it broke the unwritten rule that I listed in my earlier reply.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I asked her for a post or an e-mail where I made that agreement. She won't have one because that agreement was never made. Who in their right mind would house and feed both parent boas and all the babies and then agree to half???!! </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
The ignorance and lack of integrity keep shining through.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">All she did was have one less snake to feed for 4 months, I did all the work and put out all the $$ to make it happen.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
In your own mind, I'm sure that's rationale enough for screwing other people- but this is reality. Also, note that you still can't seem to keep your lies straight. That sentence of yours sounds like an admission that Lori's male did breed at least one of your females.

Yes Rachel, I know you're trying to weasel out of it any way you can, but the fact still ramains that you're a thief and a liar.