A customers concern...I need your input on this.

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Ok here is the deal.  I posted a 20 lot of baby Veiled chameleons (produced by me) on Kingsnakel.com for sale for $350 shipped (which equates to $17.50ea.  Mike from Chameleon Condo called and wanted to purchase them.  We talked on the phone about the chameleons and I answered all questions he addressed with me.  I sent pictures via e-mail to him of the father of the animals. and He knew the price was a one night only deal.  He said he owuld talk it over with his wife and let me know by the end of the night.  Well by the end of the night he said "I'll take them." then the next morning he e-mailed and wanted me to call him after he was supposed to make the payment the night before or first thing in the morning.  From this call,Forst he wanted me to give him for free some of my BLUE Bloodline veileds and I told him NO I wholesale them at $35ea in 10 lots.  He then wanted to substitute 1.1 of the Blues for 1.1 of the normals.  I agreed to do so if he paid an additional $15ea for a total of $30extra for the substitutions. He agreed to this and paypaled the money a short while later.  Then he called me saying he contacted another breeder that would sell him baby Veileds in a 20 lot for $15ea.  I told him well you should get them, that is a great price.  He wanted to know if I would sell him my remaining 10 for that price.  I told him NO, but I did decide I would sell him the remaining 10 for $165.00 ($16.50ea) He agreed and paypaled for those as well.  I also included 1.1 (basically a $70+value) of my BLUE Bloodline veileds extra for no charge at all.  Just in case any perished in shipping.
Third My terms were clearly stated that I Guarantee live arrival except for errors by carriers.  He asked me on the phone if I gave any other guarantee and I told him no I guarantee live arrival.  I shipped them on Monday June 3 2002 for a tuesday June 4 2002 delivery.  This is what he said when he received them on Tuesday.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> "I'm very happy with the chams, they all made it just fine. The F1's are beautiful. If you ever need a reference just email me or call and I will be happy to tell anyone the quality of the chams you sell."</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

He then e-mailed me:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"From: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 23<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>6<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>3 EDT
Subject: (no subject)
To: [email protected]
X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10568
X-RCPT-TO: <[email protected]>

I just want to give you an update on the chams. When we got them 3 looked week compared to the rest of them, and 1 died today. Also when we counted them the 1st night we were short 1 of the normals. On a good note all the other ones look strong and are eating great. We are very happy with them. Like I said before, if you ever need a reference let me know.

Thanks,

Mike
Chameleon Condo "</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

And regarding the shortage after I wrote him stateing that my wife and I counted them and they were all there. He wrote this:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 11:14:21 EDT
Subject: Re: Chameleons
To: [email protected]
X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10568
X-RCPT-TO: <[email protected]>

We counted them 3 times, it took us about 1.5 hours. It's O K, don't worry about it. All the other ones are doing great.

Mike
Chameleon Condo "</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Then on the 8th he writes me questioning my ethics and honesty by stateing


</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"I found 3 more dead chams. In the last 2 days I've been to 2 reptile stores. Both of them had Veileds that were 3 weeks old and they are a lot bigger then the ones I got from you. They had some that were only 3-4 days old that are the same size as the ones I got. I'm misting the cage twice a day. They are getting plenty of UVB rays, and are eating 1/4 inch crickets. Are you sure they were 3-4 weeks old when you sent them, and why are the dying. The f1's are doing fine, it's the normals that I'm having trouble with."</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

I wrote him telling him YES I am sure.  I do not ship veileds until they are at least 2 weeks old and these were at least 3 weeks old.

Then on the 9th he writes me:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"After I wrote you last, I went to watch the Tyson fight. When I got back there was another dead cham at the bottom of the cage. I have separated them into 2 cages. They have plenty to eat, they shouldn't be drooping off like flies. If I pay shipping can you replace some of the ones we lost. We have lost 5 out of 31 in 4 days."
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

I told him I would not replace the animals as I guaranteed live arrival and that I fullfilled that guarantee and went above and beyond by giveing him an extra 1.1 BLUE Veileds at NO CHARGE.  Now that I will not replace the animals that have perished he stated:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Since you wont work with me on resolving this matter and seem to be blaming me for them dying I am going to post my personal experience with you, and how you do business.( I think the problem started when you shipped 19 of them in the same bag. The ones that are dying have all been female)"
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

SO I put this to all of you out there, please give me your input on this situation. Personally I believe I did everything that could or should be asked of me.  I guaranteed live arrival, fulfilled that Guarantee, Gave him an extra 1.1 ($70+ value) for free and now He wants me to replace the animals that are dying for an unknown reason.  They were all doing great and I had not lost any of them myself before shipping them to him.

 

[hanoverherps]

Rob,
 IMO,  I think you have done no wrong.  If he read your terms, then he got what he paid for.  If he didn't like your terms, he should have gone elsewhere.  Has he offered you pics on the enclosures, dead ones, or anything?  I personally give a bit better of a gaurantee, but I don't do cham's, I do mainly dragons and shipp them alot older, so they are hardier.  I think with your prices, they are wholesale, correct?   Then that is the risk you take when buying them young at wholesale prices, right?  Again,  if they were perfectly healthy when you had them, which you said they were, then you havce done nothing wrong, not to mention the free ones you already gave him!
 Good Luck!
 Bob

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Rob...as SOON as this line came out of his mouth....Red Flags should have gone up all over the place!!

..."Then he called me saying he contacted another breeder that would sell him baby Veileds in a 20 lot for $15ea."

He had already PayPal'd you, and agreed to your deal, then he goes around with "buyer's remorse" until he finds someone that sells them less expensively! The only problem with that is...I KNOW the quality that Rob BREEDS HIMSELF!! They are FAR from your "average" baby Veil....I've bought quite a few off Rob and I have NEVER had a baby die on me...EVER!!
There are a cornucopia of reasons why they could have died...i.e., too small of an enclosure for 31 babies and some of them were being dominated....whereas the Blue line ones were kept in another enclosure so they weren't so cramped??? (I'm only guessing), Maybe they were the "runts" of the litter and they just couldn't handle the stress of the shipping, but held on long enough to be an iffy situation??? (still guessing)....Personally, Rob....KNOWING YOU...I think you did everything that could have been done....it's very obvious to me that he was looking for a way out from jump street....this is probably just a continuation of that....I don't think you owe him a dime! You just can't please everybody...as I can WELL attest! lol ....Neil

 

[dwedeking]

1) Rob, I purchased either from the same batch or one right before it. We did lose one that was not doing well when we got it (the box had been hit slightly with a piece of equipment (a small gash in the outside [did not go through] of the box)) and I attributed this to his stress. All the others are doing well. Eating well and cruising around the cage no problem.

2) Care of very young veileds is a challenge.

3) Your guarantees are printed on your website and the ads you post on Kingsnake. You even clarified them for him.

4) He states that he is seperating them into 2 cages. Seems to me that 19 chams at that age would be a tight fit for one cage and cause them stress in the competition for food and basking lights. That could the cause of his problems. Maybe I play it too safe (but then all the ones I got are alive <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>  )

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Thanks Guys for the input.  I bet I will get alot more input on this post.  Daniel they were from the same clutches as the ones you bought from me.  2 other customers bought them from me as well and have had none perish.  I can't stand that I try like hell to keep all my customers happy, but sometimes no matter what I do I am accused of doing something wrong. I am sad that the babies have perished for him but I don't have a clue why they are perishing.  I had not lost even one from the last 3 clutches I have hatched.  To be honest the only ones I have lost lately have been a few from the BLUE Lines.  They were the runts and I had separated them out because I knew they would not make it.  I do not sell animals that I even have the slightest idea that they won't make it.  Again thanks Neil and Daniel and thanks to the rest that might post.

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Another Note I think Mike and Chameleon Condo is a nice guy, sells a nice wall-less chameleon cage,  and have not ill feelings toward him and would like to continue a business relationship with him in the future.  But I could not replace animals that I do not feel I should have to.

 

[ChameleonCondo]

Basicly what Rob said is true. I don't think he was trying to cheat me, but when he shipped them he had 19 females in one small paper bag. Some of the chams couldn't even hold there heads up. He didn't have any moisture or a cool pack and I told him before he shipped that we were in the middle of a heat wave over 100 F . I ask him if I pay for shipping if he could send out some to replace the dead ones ( I thought that was fair). The 1st three died less than 24 hrs after I had them. If he wanted pics of the dead ones or if he wanted me to ship them to him I would have. To loose 5 out of 31 in 4 days seems a little strange. He said live arrival garuanteed. Thats what I got. I should of asked for live and healthy arrival.

Mike,
CHAMELEONCONDO.NET

 

[LORI KEHOE]

First you state when you received them...
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote  
"I'm very happy with the chams, they all made it just fine. The F1's are beautiful. If you ever need a reference just email me or call and I will be happy to tell anyone the quality of the chams you sell."

</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Then you come on here and state...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Some of the chams couldn't even hold there heads up.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

The two. allthough not of the same wording, are indeed opposite in context. First you state that they arrived fine...then you state here that basically they are unhealthy.

When I ship out any live stock. I go by what I am told from the receiver UPON RECEIPT. If it is stated that they arrived healthy/fine.. then that is what I go by. If there is any concern in regards to the animals then it should be noted ASAP...NOT 2 days after receipt that there is a problem with any of the animals that were shipped out.
I do not deal with chams myself, BUT am aware of their "fragile" nature, especially in the area of "stressing". Which if the following was indeed done...was most likely a major part in the "falling" out of some of the chams....

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">4) He states that he is seperating them into 2 cages. Seems to me that 19 chams at that age would be a tight fit for one cage and cause them stress in the competition for food and basking lights. That could the cause of his problems. Maybe I play it too safe (but then all the ones I got are alive </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Rob... Ya did ALL that you represented you would. IMHO you even went a bit further in some areas ....

One question though. Did the receiver agree to the shipping in these conditions ?
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I told him before he shipped that we were in the middle of a heat wave over 100 F .</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Lori,

To answer your question, yes He agreed to the shipping in these conditions and even stated "don't use a heat pack, it is a heat wave right now".  Another note, I shipped them via Airborne express, and had them held at Airborne for their pickup.  I ship in this manner to ensure that the animals do NOT ride around in a vehicle in the heat.  The package arrived to the Airborne station he wanted them shipped to (closer to his wife's work) at the times listed below.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">11:18 am Picked Up at Airborne. Ontario, CA
 8<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>0 am Held for Pick Up at Airborne.  Ontario, CA
 7:36 am Arrived at Airborne.  Ontario, CA
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

So there was not a problem with them being overheated because of the Temperatures in that area.  I DO NOT ship with cool packs as there is no need as I do not ship to the persons house or business any longer. They go directly from a temperature controlled environment (airborne office, cargo hold, to airborne office) to a temperature controlled environment.

 

[Darin Chappell]

Rob,

You advertised a service and you fulfilled it exactly as advertised.  You even threw in a 1.1 pair of more expensive animals just in case something happened along the way.  I can't see where you have anything else to do for this guy.  If he's not happy, that's a shame.  

The fact is, if my math is right, he's lost 5 animals at $16.50 a piece (that's $82.50), and you gave him $70.00 worth of freebies to begin with.  He's only down $12.50.  For that much, I wouldn't have burned a bridge, even if it were completely your fault (which I don't think it is).

It's a shame also that the animals have died, but without knowing everything that is happening in their new home, you can't responsible for that (hence the live arrival guarantee only). Don't give it a second thought.  At least that's my opinion.

 

[Mike and Erica @ MotherGecko]

Rob, Like I told you yesterday at the show, your not responsible for anything other than helping the guy with some technical support to see why they died, and maybe help from any more dying.  Your policy is on every post you make for the world to see and you lived up to that.  Everyone who has ever kept Veileds, bred Veileds, and hatched out babies KNOWS they are fragile and not like baby leopards or anything.  Not that this is about a god guy post, but I'll turn it into one lol.  Rob and Kim at RK Reptiles have been an incredible friends to us since we've been in the business, helping anytime and all the time with great tech support.  Rob basically walked us through Breeding and hatching Veileds and not too mention that we have gotten great Chameleons of 2 different species that all were A++++ animals.  I have also had the pleasure of seeing many other species of Chameleons at his house and on his show tables that were all a picture of perfect health.  There is in my opinion, NO question of Rob and Kims ethics here.    Michael Beberman

 

[sexysnake]

Rob,

    It sounds like to me that he is trying to get free animals.  
Kept asking you to lower your price or throw in this or that, he probably has all the ones you sent him in great condition, just is greedy I think.  
    You guaranteed alive delivery, they arrived alive so your done in this matter.  Of course he will pay shipping he would be getting free animals, no one offers to pay shipping again right off, he only did so because deep down he knew if you agreed he felt maybe a little guilty <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>  
   Good luck in this matter but I do not think your business practices will suffer in any way.

Torie Miller

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

Rob,

I feel that you lived up to your end of the bargain on this one.  When you were e-mailed by Chameleon Condo that the chameleons arrived safely and that they all looked good, you were done.  You even gave him free animals AFTER he haggled you down on an already low wholesale price on the babies you sent him.  He was happy with them at first, but a couple of days later all of sudden he is not happy, but will still send you business.  You refused to send him free animals to replace the dead ones(is there any proof that they died?)  that died a couple days AFTER he said they were all fine.  Now it seems as if he is most definitely NOT happy with the animals(although when it mattered he WAS) and now they were poorly shipped and many were ailing on arrival.  
Personally, I think that his housing practices weren't quite par(with 19 in one cage???), and when they started dying he needed to blame someone.  

Please, don't take this as an attack on Chameleon Condo at all.  This is just how I view what could be happening here in this deal.

But bottom line Rob, I don't think you owe any more than what your guarantee states.

 

[bpc]

Unbelievable!  

Live arrival only guarantee.  AGREED

Animals all arrive alive.  AGREED

Extra animals in the box (unbelievable bonus). AGREED

Now after days in his care, and after he has agreed to your terms he starts to complain.  

 WHAT DOES WHOLESALE MEAN PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!
If you want to get the animals that cheap, you, the buyer, must assume the risk!  It's simple math.  $16.50 a baby for veiled w/ freebies included is a great price.  And he even said they looked great when they got there.  If you want/need a guarantee ask for it up front and expect to be charged for it.

Everytime I get ready to get myself an account on KS and start selling, I read one of these insane posts and it sends me screaming in the other direction.

 

[sexysnake]

Brian,
     How funny, screaming in the other direction, but I know that is how you feel sometimes.   <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>


Torie Miller

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

I want to make sure this thread is around the other thread that Mike is posting about me.  So everyone can see everything.

 

[LORI KEHOE]

All ya gotta do is post the link to it...
here it is btw...
other thread