A question of legallity...turtle sizes

[Darin Chappell]

I was under the impression that it is illegal to sell turtles with shells under 4". Is that not correct? Does it not apply to internet sales?

TIA for your help --

 

[jenn_jeffery]

From what I've always heard/understood, it is illegal to sell them under 4 inches. I've worked at a couple of petshops and we've always been told to tell customers that we can't sell them under that because of the risk of salmonella---kids can put them in their mouths and such. I don't know if that's the right reason or not, but it is illegal to sell them that small.

The ONE execption I am aware of is they can be sold smaller than that for Educational purposes, and you have to send permits/proof to the person you're buying from to get them that small.

 

[Darin Chappell]

That's been my basic understand, as well. However, I have seen a barage of advertisements for hatchling RES turtles the size of a quarter or so, with no such disclaimer about them being for sale only for educational purposes. There certainly are no paperwork requirements mentioned. Just "Send us the money, and we'll send you the turtles!" type lines.

I was just wondering if I was wrong about the legalities of such practices. Does any one else have any ideas in relation to internet sales in particular?

 

[jenn_jeffery]

http://www.tortoise.org/general/4inch.html

That's the first link that popped up on google, and seems to cover the topic nicely...

 

[sschind]

Here is the way I understand thw law. There are legal ways to sell turtles under 4 inches. One way is the educational or research purposes that many others have mentioned. There is also a provision where you can sell baby turtles as a hobbyist breeder to other hobbyists. You can not sell them as part of a business. So, the question I have is what % of the baby turtle sold fall in the above categories. I can't say for sure but my guess is less than 5% that means (IMHO) that 95% of the baby turtle sold are done so illegally. If you breed every single one of the babies you sell and you don't claim any expenses on your income taxes, you might be able to convince me that you are a hobbyist. But once you start buying turtles and reselling them, and deducting expenses etc. it becomes a business in my eyes.

People do it because the benefits outweigh the risks. They are taking a chance that no one will call them on it, or that whatever particular ways they are using to get around the law will be enough to keep them from being prosecuted. Others think that the law just plain sucks so they say the heck with it and do what they want.

Steve Schindler

 

[jefjen]

turtles

Darin,,
This is what I have discovered,,as i sometimes deal in baby turtles.. It is NOT illegal to possess them,,,but if they are sold,,,they are "supposed" to be sold to Teachers,Education Programs,etc... This has been told to me personally by someone in the "U.S. Fish and Wildlife"..
Now,,some states or counties MAY have individual laws against turtles under 4 inches.. I know that Duvall County ((Jacksonville,Fl.)) has an ordinance stating that each turtle under 4 inches must have a Salmonella Certificate...
Also,,I do believe there are some states in which they are totally illegal.....

Here is how alot of people get away with selling baby turtles... U.S. Fish and Wildlife DO NOT have any laws against turtles under 4 inches...What people do is argue that since the U.S.F and W. have no restrictions,,and since they CAN overide local DNR,,people argue that they can sell them... Now,,U.S.F.W. generally dont overide them,,but you would be surprised at the number of local officer's that really have no clue at what is what...

Now,,all this stuff that i have said is what I have experienced and heard from people...
I welcome any feedback on this...
Jeff

 

[sschind]

I should have read the link before I made my post.

Contrary to popular belief, although they may have been inspired by consequences of the trade in hatchling red-eared sliders, the regulations cover all chelonians with a carapace less than 4 inches in length. This includes tortoises and box turtles, not just water turtles. The only exceptions are the sea turtles. These are covered by different laws.

I amazed at pet store owners who do not know this. They will argue until they are blue in the face that the baby sulcatas they are selling are not covered by the law. I asked one sales person how they can sell baby sulacats and her reply was "we buy them from a wholesaler, put a higher price on them and then put them out for sale" When I explained to her that I meant how can they legally sell them she replied that the law only applied to water turtles.

In keeping with their public health orientation, the regulations basically cover the mass marketing of turtles to the general public. Because the regulations specifically exclude sales not in connection with a business, most private party sales of surplus stock by hobbyists are unaffected by this law

I think this is where most vendors get away with it. It is a rather vague part of the law with no real definitions of mass marketing or private party sales. Granted, the sale of one turtle from one person to another may be construed as a private party sale, but if someone has a booth set up at a local swap and is handing out deli cups with baby sliders, that he bought for a buck, to anyone who hands him $5.00, that is not a private party transaction. But that is what happens all the time (again, IMHO)

Steve Schindler

 

[jefjen]

Steve,,,
Where did you get those laws???

 

[Glenn Bartley]

Jeff and everyone,

The reason that the US Fish & Wildlife Service does not enforce any federal laws relating to the sales of turtles under 4 inches is because they are not the agency that has jurisdiction in this matter. That agency is the Food & Drug Administration (FDA). Now if you go to the FDA web site and do a search on salmonella you will find it is most prevalent in chicken and eggs. Is it not a wonder that the FDA does not forbid the sales of chicken at your local market but instead prohibits the sale of a type of animal that is not normally on the culinary top ten list of most Americans! Yes they enacted this law because of a salmonella scare in which they believed children could place small turtles into their mouths and get sick. Wouldn't it be lots easier for them to get a piece of infected chicken or egg into their mouths. Oh boy I tell ya - regulation by panic.

Best regards,
Glenn B

 

[jefjen]

FDA

Glenn,,
I have heard the same thing,,but you know what,,as long as i have been dealing in reptiles,,never once have I seen or heard of the FDA busting someone for selling turtles under 4 inch..

Another little trick that people do at shows is sell a turtle set-up,(tank,lights,etc.),,and "give" them a free baby turtle...

 

[Glenn Bartley]

I seem to remember hearing of some people getting busted for doing just that tank sales thing a year or two ago. I think it may have been discussed on this site. I don't know where it was, but it sure sounds familiar. I do believe it was FDA agents, and think it was in the midwest somewhere. They must have better things to do, but I am also a fed agent and can tell you some of the stupid things I have had to do would make your head spin.

Best regards,
Glenn B

 

[Audrina Head]

Around here in central FL I've seen -trucks- selling 'Baby Turtles' on the side of the road. They either set up stands or sell them out of the back of vans with things like 'Baby Turtles' and 'Great Gift!' printed on the sides. All the turtles are around an inch. Does anyone know how this is legal? Sure doesn't seem like it would fall under the private hobbiest exemption (or the educational one, for that matter). It just bugs me because I can't see turtles bought at a roadside stand on a whim getting the best of care.

 

[Darin Chappell]

Well, how 'bout this ad???

"HI,

WE HAVE BABY RED EAR SLIDER TURTLES IN LOTS OF

100 FOR ONLY $2.00 EACH PLUS SHIPPING .

250 FOR ONLY $1.90 EACH PLUS SHIPPING .

500 FOR ONLY $1.45 EACH PLUS SHIPPING .

1000 FOR ONLY $1.25 EACH PLUS SHIPPING .

2000 AND UP ONLY $1.15 EACH PLUS SHIPPING .

SHIPPING IS NEXT DAY TO YOUR DOOR BY AIR BORNE , FED EX , OR UPS. OR NEXT DAY VIA AIR LINES CARGO.

SHIPPING IS RUNNING RIGHT AROUND $39.00 TO $69.00 DEPENDING ON HOW MANY YOU ARE GETTING SHIPPED.

THESE TURTLES ARE ALL BORN THIS YEAR AND VERY ACTIVE!

WE HAVE BEEN SELLING TURTLES WHOLESALE FOR OVER 20 YEARS

SHOP AROUND AND YOU WILL SEE

WE HAVE THE BEST PRICE ON THE WEB PERIOD..............

ALL ORDERS COME WITH A ARRIVE ALIVE GUARANTY !!!!!

WE ACCEPT PAY PAL , VISA , MASTER CARD , AMERICAN EXPRESS , MONEY ORDERS , AND PERSONNAL CHECKS."

I don't know . . .sure SOUNDS like one hobbyist selling to another, HUH?

uke:

 

[sschind]

Jeff,

the items I quoted were from the comentary part of the link you provided and as such are not spelled out verbatim in the laws, but if you read a little further down you will see in the definitions part of the regulation you will se it spelled out. The hobbyist part comes a little further down, and again the word hobyist is not spelled out but apparently that is what it is accepted as refering to.

Also, if I am not mistaken, the federal health department (not sure of the exact name of the agency) has a similar law on the books. I am not certain of this I will try to find it. Maybe I should call Tommy and see what he has to say. After all he was my governor for umpteen million years.

For those of you not offended by certain other reptile related websites you can go on turtle forums and find all kinds of discussion as to this. You may have to search the old forums because since the new format has been intoduced there hasn't been much on the subject. I do know that there is at least on thread going on now.

Steve Schindler

 

[sschind]

I do believe it was FDA agents, and think it was in the midwest somewhere. They must have better things to do,

Better things to do than enforce the law? That's an interesting concept.

Steve Schindler

 

[BrianB]

Better things to do than enforce the law? That's an interesting concept.

Steve Schindler

Economics. They have better laws to enforce. Like the ones pertaining to food and drugs, maybe. No law enforcement agency (and I don't know that FDA qualifies as such in the strict sense of the word, I'd bet they have a LE branch) has unlimited resources. Heck, where I used to live, I couldn't get the police to come out with my upstairs neighbors openly smoking pot. They basically didn't care about possession/use. The only way they'd do anything is if it was incidental to an arrest for something else. Too busy dealing with more serious stuff, I guess. (Or just lazy, who knows?)

 

[Glenn Bartley]

Now Steve I am surprised at that comeback, you know that is not what I meant. While I figure you were kidding, just in case you were serious, let me explain what I meant.

Yes they do have better things to do, such as enforce laws that would be of more import in the lives of the everyday tax paying American. I am a federal agent myself (another agency) and I can say for a fact that many agents are assigned to duties that are ridiculous when instead they could be out enforcing laws that are much more important than the size of a turtle. While my viewpoint may seem subjective, it is not if you simply base the importance of the crime investigated on the penalty that is appropriate for violation of the relative law, or when you look at the financial damage done by the criminal, or when you look at the social damage done by the criminal. The Food and Drug Administration criminal investigative division is tasked with investigating such things as: manufacture and distribution of counterfeit prescription drugs, food stamp fraud (which involves millions each year) among other things. I don't know about you, but these would certainly seem crimes that would require more immediate attention than would illegal sales of sub 4 inch turtles. It would be nice if this law was enforced simply because it is the law, but when enforcement of this, in my opinion, ridiculous statute takes priority over investigations of crimes that steal tens of millions from tax payers each year, then yes I think they had something better to do.

With regard to the merits of this particular statute, I think we should all be writing our congressional representatives to have it repealed. The fact is that it would be much easier to pick up salmonella from infected poultry, eggs, or even milk products. Heck 75% of infection caused by one particular species of salmonella is from contaminated chickens eggs - but has the FDA outlawed chicken eggs or required waning labels about the possibility of contracting salmonella from eggs. No they have not. Salmonella is a commonly encountered bacterium. It is on or in a lot of the stuff we eat. I don't know of anyone who commonly eats sub 4 inch turtles but somehow the FDA decided they caused a major threat to young children who could place them into their mouths. That same child could almost as easily get part of a larger turtle into his/her mouth or even lick the turtle - yet larger turtles were not banned. That same child could pick up and egg and then suck his/her own thumb and contract salmonella (which is known to be found on the outside of chicken egg shells as well as on the inside of the egg). That same kids mom could cut up a chicken, then wipe off the knife on her apron and cut up the salad for that nights dinner thereby infecting the salad with enough salmonella to pass it on to someone who eats the salad. I hope that kid is still on formula and not eating whole foods - whoops then how would he/she be old enough to get the turtle out of the tanks to put it into his/her mouth??????

This law was a panic law enacted by anti herp bias that exists in most people. Remember we are small (but ever growing) minority, we are the weirdoes who like reptiles. I think the law needs to be repealed and I will again be writing a letter to my senators and congresswoman about it - probably my 4 or 5 th such letter in the past 4-5 years. Sooner or later, if they get enough feedback, they will react. Until that time we have to keep on writing. If the politicians ever come to realize the tax revenues that selling these turtles could generate, they would likely repeal the law. Tax revenues would be generated by licensing fees, sales tax, excise taxes, taxes on turtle food, taxes on aquariums and supplies and so forth.

Best regards,
Glenn B

 

[jefjen]

turtle laws

Let me say this... I do sometimes deal in baby turtles,,,and to be completely honest,,,I personally think the laws are uncalled for...
I mean,,as I understand the law,,(and please correct me if i am wrong guys),,the "main"reason this law is in effect is because of the risk of people ingesting them,,and therefore increasing the risk of salmonella...
Unless I am wrong,,,the turtles dont lose the ability to carry salmonella when they reach four inches..
But who enforces the "law"? I mean,,every pet store i have ever been in has had baby tortoises...

 

[Darin Chappell]

Jeff I understand what you're saying, and I think you have a valid point. But let's CHANGE the law . . .not just BREAK it!!!

I'm sorry . . .I'm sure you're a great guy, and I have no quarrel with you personally, but this kind of attitude toward the law is part of what is wrong with our industry. Too many people think that we all have no regard for the laws of the land already. That's why (in a jump of reasoning I shall never understand) so many people want to put even more regulations upon us than we now labor under. "Those reptile keepers are lawless . . .let's pass more laws to stop them!" Uhh, yeah.

All I'm saying is that there has to be a better way to make a change in the system than by simple rejection of the laws of the land. Civil disobedience works, but only if you're public about it. It does no good at all to slink around the edges of legality trying not to get caught.

 

[jefjen]

Darin,,
Let me clarify how i am doing things.. I am in constant contact with my DOA officer,,and the U.S.Fish and Wildlife main office for my state is 25 minutes from my home.. And i stay in contact with them about certain issue's.. Also,,my local DNR agent is working on a few things for me... I deal IN ALOT of exotic venomous,,which are illegal in my state.. I DO NOT DEAL IN HOTS WHATSOEVER WITHIN MY STATE... Just wanted to clarify that... I am licensed for all classes of Crocadillians and Venomous in the state of Florida,,which is where these animals stay...
Georgia has some very funny laws on certain things... It is possible to obtain a permit to have these animals,.,,WHICH I AM IN THE PROCESS OF GETTING...

My point is this Darin,,,I will be the THIRD person in the state of Ga. to have this license...
HOW MANY PEOPLE DO YOU THINK KEEP EXOTIC VENOMOUS IN GA.????
I believe there are certain laws that are rightfully in place,,however,,i also feel there are laws that need to be abolished...
My point is I do pretty much everything above board.. I DO NOT take hundreds of turtles and sell them for 5.00 at a show... When I do sell them in the U.S.A...(I export several hundred to other countries,,which by the way is perfectly legal)),,I explain to EVERY PERSON that this couple dollar turtle needs about 100.00 in supplies.. I do the exact same thing with every animal i sell,,especially IGGY'S...

Just wanted to clarify a few things so no one would think that I just break an animal law,,and dont anything else to try and rectify the law...
Darin,,,No offense taken whatsoever buddy... I am open to all conversations...