A quote from a PETCO supporter

[Manhattan Herps]

there are some good petcos them there are some really bad ones..i notified one of their animal care and leopard gecko care..this is a quote from an email from one of the petco supporters

"Our care standard for our Leopard Geckos is world-class. We use UVB lighting (ReptiSun 5.0), we mandate that stores keep a steady supply of mealworms in the habitat, we allow timely photoperiods to reduce stress and we provide a hiding place that allows an environment where the animal can both hide and be viewed by our customers at the same time."


WORLD CLASS!??!?! you've got to be kidding me!!!!

 

[gmherps]

HAHA!!!LMAO
They have the worst care for animals.
But, when you pay $5.15 an hour, what the hell do you expect?
Good post.

 

[Manhattan Herps]

Tell me about it, the frealking animals know more than some of the employees....

 

[riverjop]

we provide a hiding place that allows an environment where the animal can both hide and be viewed by our customers at the same time."

Is this even possible?
sounds like an oximoron to me!

 

[progeckos]

Great post.

What does using UVB lighting have to do with having healthy geckos? They don’t even need UVB lighting! Amazing………….

 

[Manhattan Herps]

Overton LOL, i spent 10 minuts trying to find out what the hell that meant this morning

Cody, thats exactlly what i said in my last email to him

 

[Manhattan Herps]

Another one

"I assure you that a veterinarian reviews every component and practice regarding the care and well-being of the animals in our stores. In fact, our Director of Veterinary Medicine specializes in the treatment of reptiles. "

Then why is there always sick and emacitaed geckos and other reptiles..i think if they really did have a certified vet this would never be an issue...

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I AM NOT A PETA SUPPORTER! (disclaimer)

I am reluctant to post anything regarding Petco because the last time I did, I got called a "rabid PETA supporter" as well as many other things that cannot be posted without warning points, and I had to put up with hate mail for several weeks. (If you take a look at all of Seamus Haley's points, you will see that nearly half of them were from calling me names on that thread. LOL!)

I refer to the stores as 'PetCrap' and the upper management 'PetCorp', and I went nose-to-nose with PetCorp several years ago... all the way up to the National Companion Pet Director and got absolutely NOWHERE! I went as far as getting my foot in the door on a corporate level and actually conducted reptile husbandry training in the Bay Area's PetCrap stores. It didn't do any good, and I was thrown out of one store for taking photographs of a tank full of about 30 emaciated babies and juvies (on sand) swimming in green mucous-laden feces, where a cricket was eating the eye out of a dead baby. All of the sudden, a sand skink came up out of the sand and ate one of them! I went ballistic.

Anyway, I used to do a lot of Petco rescues... but I cannot even bring myself to go into any of those PetCrap stores anymore. It is just too heartbreaking for me. Obviously, humane treatment and care of reptiles has been an issue with the PetCorp in California for a long time. Nothing seems to get through to them because here are just a few 'news makers' in my area:

San Francisco Brings Charges Against Petco

San Francisco's DA Office Sues Petco

Petco to Pay $900,000 to Settle Suits

 

[Manhattan Herps]

Those PETA people are loons...and im sorry you had to go through that maricia, people can be such D!cks

i dont support PETA in any way..but i do think PetCo should start shaping up, there are some really bad ones out there...even though i'd like to see it changed...im not going to go throw a hissy fit and firebomb every PetCo i see..

 

[Seamus Haley]

(If you take a look at all of Seamus Haley's points, you will see that nearly half of them were from calling me names on that thread. LOL!)

That thread was a bit more than you're representing it to be... you were outspoken in your support of legislative attempts to further restrict the sale of herptiles for ALL vendors, not just Petco.

The problem is that the chain has something like eight hundred plus stores, some of which are exceptional, some of which are utter garbage and the vast overwhelming majority of which are mediocrity personified. As a chain they aren't really any better or worse than Petsmart or the bulk of mom and pop or localized regional chains all across the country and really don't deserve the scrutiny that has been leveled against them. The Petno campaign is directly overseen by PETA (the logo is plastered over every page on the website) and supported by a good cross section of antipet activists. It's goals are NOT better petco stores, it's goals are to have us all wearing hemp clothing eating lettuce and dying at an early age due to lack of medical advances.

Beyond which people seem to be too quick to blame the immediate source. You who are complaining claim to see only crappy animals in a Petco store... If every animal there is in poor condition, then the store isn't the source of the problem, as each store sells and reccieves animals constantly and poor husbandry would take some duration of time to cause visible problems... Look to their suppliers to identify about 75% of the trouble in stores which are unable to cope. Yes, they hire a lot of highschool kids... every retail store does, it's just not practical or financially possible to hire a team of experienced biologists for every store and some of their employees are probably deserving of a good swift kick in the ass... But the remainder are dealing with animals from bulk suppliers that arrive with parasite loads, communicable diseases, injuries and stressed out beyond belief. If you ask the management in a local store, they'll probably happily inform you of the day their herp shipments arrive and allow you to look at the animals coming out of the boxes. I've done it a few times myself and will say right now that these stores are getting animals that arrive in questionable condition much of the time.

What's the solution?

The regional Companion Animal Coordinator is authorized to purchase animals, they act as a corporate buyer for their area and they will happily buy animals you produce... at the prices that the massive jobbers offer them. So when you have leopard geckos you want to unload for a dollar fifty each, by all means contact the regional petco management and offer them enough to actually fill a few stores on a regular basis. Until you've hit that level of production though and until you're willing to accept the financial reality which has been imposed on the industry and have some means of fixing THIS situation... Then I'd suggest you stop trying to fight the big corporations. They 1)have better lawyers than you can afford if you want to take them on as an individual and 2)are not distinguished from any other petstore, breeder, dealer or wholesaler in the eyes of legislators. You ask for laws to get Petco into shape and the end result is that their local competition (with a much thinner profit margin because they don't get price breaks from their suppliers) goes under, bueiness becomes harder for everyone else and the corporate giants with the deep pockets and huge profits can RIDE OUT such legislative efforts to curb the reptile trade and will be left as the only avaliable sources for animals.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I don't think so...

That thread was a bit more than you're representing it to be... you were outspoken in your support of legislative attempts to further restrict the sale of herptiles for ALL vendors, not just Petco.

Seamus, I am NOT going to start this with you again!!! Your comment is the EXACT reason I was reluctant to post on this subject, and you are very well-known for your antagonistic blathering! I did not, and do not support ANY legislature that attempts to restrict the sale of reptiles in any way! That would put me out of business, now wouldn't it?

What I DID do, was support a PetCrap employee that was terminated for going public about the abuse of reptiles in her store, as a witness in court. I was served a subpoena by the District Attorney's Office to serve as a witness in that case, which led to the temporary restriction of reptile sales in that store.

PERIOD.

 

[riverjop]

Seamus!....but is it right?

 

[Seamus Haley]

Seamus!....but is it right?

From what kind of standpoint?

Ethically? Gray area, the animals being purchased are crappy rather than quality in some cases in some areas. The individual stores may or may not have the capability to clean them up and make them presentable for sale- those that do, I can find no fault with. Those that don't generally have numbers within what would be considered acceptable loss numbers, the few that don't even meet that... there are methods of correcting the problem beyond widespread calls for legislation or damning an entire corporation because a given loacl store is less than spectacular.

Financially? Yes, it's very right. From a business standpoint, the corporation as a whole has no other choices. They have enough stores and enough customers that they need to have large volumes of any species they choose to carry, they need to carry leopard geckos in order to remain competitive and stay in business, especially given the cut-throat battle between petco and Petsmart. Neither can afford not to offer something of signifigance that the other does. If presented with better quality animals at competitive prices in substantial numbers, they'd probably switch as soon as they fufilled whatever existing contractual obligations they may have with their current suppliers. Unfortunately the alternative source isn't there right now. Current breeders focusing on high quality could never match the prices of the volume producers, volume producers hit a sort of quality plateau that they can't get past.

I think what it really comes down to though is perspective. Some of the animals in the poorer stores will not make it. Some small percentage of animals even in the highest quality breeding or retail establishments in the world won't make it. As a whole, the losses are a minority. Might be a majority for an individual store, but for the industry and for any given chain, it's the minority. By pushing the issue too hard, even in cases where you *think* it's only a local store being effected, it sets a dangerous precident for the entire industry, especially given the highly subjective nature of determining appropriate levels of care and knowing that there ARE groups and individuals who want the entire business stopped completely that will jump on any victory and ride it as far as they can. There are appropriate and quiet channels one can take which WILL effect positive changes in the true murderholes but some of the statements I have seen people make are the equivilent of shouting "Fire" in a crowded theater THAT YOU OWN STOCK IN. Yeah, you might get Petco to change a bit but you'll take a lot of your own interests out along with them... And as I mentioned earlier, Petco can afford a lot more legal fights or slow periods in the industry than your local shops, small volume but full time breeders and startup wholesalers can. There is a vested interest for everyone who makes any money in this industry or even just enjoys reptiles in their home to find appropriate measures to correct what we see as wrong within our business... To police ourselves independantly without handing loaded guns to those enemies of the hobby.

 

[riverjop]

So....as a business standpoint It makes it right! (at least in there eyes) But Ethically
It is precieved as wrong! (at least in the vast majority of the people who actually look thru the glass at the end result)

By the way, our local Petco doesn't even carry dogs or cats! Why do they feel it neccesarry to carry reptiles? Is it just a feather in their cap to have "exotic things" for people to "stare thru the glass" at?
If they can make it as a "real" pet shop while not carrying the most basic petshop commodities IE: dogs & cats, than certainly they could remain a dominate factor in the "Petshop world" by not carrying reptiles and amphibians! I mean come on! it has to rank down at the bottom of there prof ability list!
How often does a bag of feed die, or someone sues them cause a dog collar fell off the rack and hit the floor?

 

[Seamus Haley]

If they can make it as a "real" pet shop while not carrying the most basic petshop commodities IE: dogs & cats, than certainly they could remain a dominate factor in the "Petshop world" by not carrying reptiles and amphibians! I mean come on! it has to rank down at the bottom of there prof ability list!

Not so much actually...

Neither of the big chain stores carries dogs or cats (or rabbits) because one of them at one point made a "Stand" and decided not to sell the species with so many awaiting adoption. The other then followed suit, but the motivation wasn't ethical... it was financial. It had become a popular enough image after all those 20-20 and Nightline puppy mill stories that they generated MORE revenue by dropping a specific species from their potential sales. Beyond which the majority of income in any pet store comes from supplies and food rather than the direct sale of animals... pets are only sold in petstores so that people will have something to buy food for every week.

Reptiles are gaining in popularity as household pets. It's a steady constant gain and they continued to become more widespread even during the economic tough times following 9-11 which killed a good portion of pet industry growth and really curbed what must be called luxury purchases. Leopard geckos and bearded dragons were the big boom species and between the two corporate giants it's all about customer attraction. Their prices are close enough to one another that most people won't feel any signifigant chain loyalty apart from that which may be attached to individual local employees so they need to compete by offering variety and services. It can seem somewhat insignifigant too but given two local stores from each company, the one with more fishtanks, or a bigger grooming department or an extra eight foot shelving section of dog toys WILL come out ontop. If one of them has the potential to carry herps and herp food and the other wasn't, then the one which does would get ALL the customers who own herps. Not just for their cricket purchases (Gah, ten cents each on three weekers!) but for the dogfood, catfood, bird seed, fish food, lightbulb, water dish and so on purchases too. While this site has some really hardcore herpers who visit it, most reptile owners these days are not. They have one, maybe two or a small handful of herps which were probably purchased from whatever their local retail place was and they generally own other pets. So not carrying reptiles at all isn't feasable for either of the big companies to turn into policy.

There are some differences... Petsmart won't carry green iguanas, which I think is a good step... but they also won't carry snakes or terrestrial invertebrets- which in and of itself is signifigant in realizing that it really is the leopard geckos and bearded dragons which have made reptiles acceptable to the general pet owning public and that other species are still not seeing the public reaction we might like...

If "we" want to find a solution to the problem... Although frankly I do not believe the problem is as widespread as some here seem to believe with the chain in general, we need to look at reasonable and acceptable solutions that help the animals, that the companies involved will jump on because it's advantageous for THEM and that doesn't lead to dangerous precident being set that could be turned against anyone or everyone else dealing with live animals.

 

[riverjop]

because one of them at one point made a "Stand"

And a stand can be made again!!!


I'll bet you that leopard geckos will follow the same fate as green iguanas have, with -in a few years!

They'll be the new "Martha" of super petshops history!


FYI
[size=-5](for those of you who don't know "Martha" was the last passenger pigeon alive)[/size]

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

disposable pets

I feel that by allowing pet stores like the 'bad' PetCraps to continue to buy, keep, and sell Leopard Geckos that are sick and dying (or any other reptile for that matter..) simply reinforces to the pet-buying public that they are disposable pets. Pet stores like PetCrap and PetSmart see these creatures as inventory items, and therefore do not warrant the same level of care as warm, fuzzy, or feathery animals.

We must realize that these places and these people do not consider that some of us actually become emotionally bonded to a reptile as a pet. If an animal isn't warm and fuzzy/feathery, and doen't come when you call it or do tricks, then we cannot form an emotional attachment to it. In their eyes, different rules apply for traditional pets than non-traditional pets.

Does this means that I think ALL PetCraps and PetSmarts should be disallowed for selling herps? NO! It means that until these corporations stop considering reptiles as throw-away animals, and the breeders (gecko mills) who supply these stores with mass-produced, weak and unhealthy lizards can relate to them as legitimate animals for the pet trade industry, the situation will remain the way it is now.

Like Seamus said, PetCrap and PetsMart do not sell puppies or kittens because "one of them at one point made a 'Stand' and decided not to sell the species with so many awaiting adoption. The other then followed suit, but the motivation wasn't ethical... it was financial," we will not see the humane treatment of reptiles in these retail stores.

In my opinion, the best way we can "take a stand" against the stores that continue to sell sick and dying Leopard Geckos, is to simply stop giving them our business. Going through the proper channels in dealing with PetCorp will do absolutely NOTHING. But, if you take a public stand against them, you will risk being associated with PETA and other radical animal rights groups, and become the enemy of the very species you are trying to help!

Just stop buying geckos from these places! Tell your friends to stop buying geckos from these places. Right now there are so many Leopard Geckos available on the market, there really is no reason to buy from anywhere but a privately owned retail pet store or a reputable breeder that actually cares about the well-being of their reptiles. If there is no demand for reptiles to be sold in retail stores, then the geckos mills will have to produce less of them. Supply and demand... if there is no demand, the stores will not see the point in supplying them, and the mills will have to stop producing them.

 

[riverjop]

Seamus?.....was that you behind the counter at petcrap the other day? I was the guy out side looking in....holding the bag of baked beans!

 

[Seamus Haley]

Seamus?.....was that you behind the counter at petcrap the other day?

Doubt it... The last Petco I entered was in Quincy Massachusetts and it was probably a good two months ago.

In my opinion, the best way we can "take a stand" against the stores that continue to sell sick and dying Leopard Geckos, is to simply stop giving them our business.

Noooooow you're gettin' it.

Going through the proper channels in dealing with PetCorp will do absolutely NOTHING.

It will, given the proper APPROACH and proper conduct on your part when going through said channels.

But, if you take a public stand against them, you will risk being associated with PETA and other radical animal rights groups, and become the enemy of the very species you are trying to help!

It's not even so much that you'll become associated with them as you will find yourself gathering information, support and money for them involuntarily. Your intentions obviously wouldn't be aligned with theirs but the direct actions one would take by being too outspoken about such an issue in a community would further THEIR goals more than OURS.