Sorry about the delay in addressing this, but for a couple of reasons it wasn't one that I could tackle immediately after being posted. But let's dive into this issue now.
SteveHiss said:
First of all, this is Kelli posting under Steve's account. I am unable to post under the KelliH account, as that account has been banned. Secondly, to those of you that were not active members of Fauna back in the summer of 2005, and are not aware of the tragedy that befell on my family, please save yourself some time and hit the back button on your browser.
I will make this as short as I can. Most of you that have been active on Fauna for awhile know that the root cause behind my banning was the death of my son Hayden. The night of his death a few of my friends were in chat and came up with the idea of setting up a fund and/or auction of some sort to help out with the medical and funeral expenses. The idea was submitted to Rich and initially he was unsure if he wanted to do that here on Fauna, and probably wasn't really sure if it was the right thing to do in any event. So I guess it took him a day or so to make a decision. In the interim, Chris Johnson of TSE offered to host the auctions on his forum based website. Then apparantly Rich decided it would be ok to host the auctions here on Fauna. This is where the confusion and ugliness began.
You must understand that I was in no shape mentally to comprehend anything at that time, as my beautiful son, the light of my life, had suddenly been yanked out of my life forever. I barely even remember the weeks following his death, I just know it was the most horrible and the worst pain I have ever felt in my life and to say it was hard to cope with it would be an understatement to say the least.
Well that sounds kind of accusatory to me. Saying the "root" cause of this issue was the death of your son, while maybe accurate, would be just as accurately portrayed as saying the "root" cause was your being born. The wording you used certainly gives the impression that you were banned BECAUSE of Hayden's death, which would have many people scratching their heads and thinking me some ogre because of it. The
REAL cause of your being banned not once, but twice, will be fully explained shortly.
Bear in mind that I do not have all the correspondence that took place, nor would I say that my memory of the exact sequence of events could be relied upon to be 100 percent accurate. From what I can recall, Lucille did come to me with the request to convert the currently running auction forum to benefit this site, to something that would benefit Kelli and family following the untimely death of Hayden. Honestly, I had gotten my toes smashed soundly with another "do good" situation I embarked on, and as well I just felt that I had too much on my plate already without getting involved in something else at that time of year. As such, I told Lucille, that I would rather not get this site involved. Later, Wendy Collins then contacted me (not sure of the timeframe) and made the same request and basically promised to take over (along with Lucille) everything needed to run the auction to benefit Kelli and family. At that point, I gave the OK, and made the changes necessary for that to take place. At that time, I had no idea of anything else going on concerning anyone else about this whole situation. From what I can recall, I had been out of town for several days just prior to this happening, and my time and focus was getting back to normal with my animals. As terrible as this incident was, quite frankly it just was not top on my priority list, to be frank about it.
As for Chris Johson, the first I knew about him setting up his own auction on his own site was when I saw the banner ad(s), text ads, and solicitations within one or more of the forums that were brought to my attention.
SteveHiss said:
To continue, there was some sort of conflict between Chris and Rich about the fund/auctions. Honestly, I still don't understand what the problem was, but I know they had some conflict about it. I had no idea any of that was going on behind the scenes of course. Until one night I got a call from Chris Johnson and he informed me that Rich had not wanted Chris to run any of the auctions on the TSE site because Rich was concerned that it would pull traffic away from Fauna. I was shocked and very, very hurt by this. And worst of all, I believed it. There are some threads about all of this matter here on Fauna.
Yes there was a conflict. I believe it is adequately documented elsewhere on this site, but in a nutshell what had happened was that I had been contacted by a couple of people who were upset at Chris for apparently beating his own drum and in their opinion, trying to use this sad event as a catalyst to promote traffic to his own website. When I looked at all the facts presented, I had to agree that whether or not this was actually the intent behind Chris's motives, the image presented certainly could be interpretted that way. Accordingly, I contacted Chris and let him know about the perceptions people were getting about his actions. Chris, which shouldn't surprise anyone who has had run-ins with him before, blew up over it. Instead of keeping this a private discussion between us to be resolved privately, he decided to run with the ball and use it as a rallying cry to try (in my opinion) portray what I said as something dirty and ugly. At that point, motives had to come into question, at least in my mind, as to why someone would want to do such a thing. Personally, I believed Chris Johnson was not doing the original auction for completely 100 percent altruistic reasons. I believe he was sharp enough, and quite astute enough, to recognize an opportunity to promote his own website while trying to give the appearance of a good samaritan gesture. Quite frankly anyone who then failed to see this side of Chris, and especially after later events proved just how correct this insight HAD to have been, is being terminally naive about him.
I would have to say that had Chris kept this between myself and him, I would have been first in line saying that the impression myself and others had gotten about his actions might have been completely wrong. But as things unfolded, and especially when Chris went to Kelli directly and laid all this on her shoulders, then motives became less muddled. At least in my opinion. The disturbing thing, to me, was that Chris's claims were accepted not only by Kelli, but several other of Kelli's friends, basically at face value. And quite honestly, I believe to this day they still are taking Chris's word over mine about intents and motives of both parties. Regardless of the fact that Chris Johnson has proven to have quite less than stellar history for truthfullness and honesty in his dealings. For someone to think "I believe Chris Johnson was lying to everyone BUT me", is pretty darn naive, in my opinon.
SteveHiss said:
So as time went on, I tried to get past it, but I couldn't seem to do it. Occassionally there would be comments made that I interpreted as being negative regarding The Hayden Fund. Each time I read one of these comments it brought it all back "to the top" so to speak.
Yes, this simmered for about a year I guess. All the while I knew Kelli harbored some resentment towards me and towards this site. And there were others who expressed barely concealed hostility as well. Some concealed it less than others, and got banned in the process as they did their best to be a thorn in my side on this site. Others were not quite so overt, but the undercurrent was there, nonetheless. In those instances, I believe that self interest was holding their tongue in that they just did not want to sever ties with this site for promotional purposes, for their own businesses. In other cases, I mistakenly took their covert nature as being evidence that the wounds were finally beginning to heal.
And yes, Kelli did take some things I have said way out of context, which in turn caused minor conflicts to erupt now and again within that year. One noteworthy quote was when something was brought up about me taking up the banner for some "do good" situation, and I commented about the "fiasco" I went through with two events, one of them this Chris Johnson conflict. I believe Kelli interpretted that as meaning that I thought the auctions themselves were the fiasco, which certainly was not what I was thinking at all. Regardless, her misinterpretation of my words not only instigated another round of conflict but also was the catalyst for her to launch her own website, which no matter how you slice it, was done out of spite. The fact that a thread was started on that site with many of the people fully expressing their open antagonism towards me, this site, and several other members here, along with Kelli contributing her own invective, fully supports my conclusion, I believe. At that time, Kelli was a moderator of the Leopard Gecko forum on this site, and as is documented in a separate thread on this site (
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81309), the obvious conflict I saw from her own written words, and what I consider as being prudent for a moderator on this site to have as an attitude towards the owner and admin of the site, I not only removed her from that position, but also banned her while I sorted out the potential damages that could result from a rogue moderator. At this point, it was obvious to me that the latent resentment Kelli harbored towards myself and this site had finally broken through to the surface, as it had with several other people contributing to that infamous thread on Kelli's site.
SteveHiss said:
I have had a lot of time to reflect on all of this, a lot of time to really think hard about the situation. I have come to the conclusion that I was wrong, and that Rich was not trying to make sure all the traffic stayed on Fauna rather than other sites like the TSE forum site. Rich and I had spoken on the phone last June about this. It was just a day or two before the first anniversary of Hayden's death, and I was very emotional. I had agreed to post an apology here in the feedback forum if he would delete all the ugly threads about the Hayden Fund. I wanted them deleted because when a Google search is done using my son's name, all these horrible, negative threads on Fauna would come up in the search. I did not want Hayden's friends, teachers, and grandparents being hurt by all that, and wanted Rich to just delete them forever. I never made that apology publically here (although I have numerous times privately) because this is painful for me, and I know how these threads can escalate into ugliness. I just didn't want to do that at that time. I was not ready to put it all out here like this, and that is why I was banned from Fauna.
First off, as for my being worried about Chris Johson stealing traffic from this site, offhand I would have to say it is ridiculous. I have seen LOTS of new sites start up all of the time, many of which have had free reign to advertise their sites (as did Chris) directly on this site. People have their websites posted in their signature areas, avatars, and member titles ALL of the time, and it doesn't bother me in the least. My private message to Chris Johnson about his actions was solely based on what I perceived as his USING Hayden's death to his own advantage, and this was transparent to some people enough to contact me about it. People will come and go all of the time on websites of this nature. To think that it is even possible to lock in those members by putting blinders on them is patently ridiculous, and proven fruitless time and time again. Please, give me enough credit to have the smarts enough to understand the reality of the situation.
In my opinion, it appeared that Kelli must have come to the conclusion well before admitting it here and now. In the thread concerning the "Our favorite Fauna Members" thread on Kelli's site (
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81309), Dr. Jay Owens plainly stated that in a long talk with Kelli, he was convinced that she had finally come to understand this mistaken opinion she had been holding.
Unfortunately, some of the conversations with Kelli took place via phone, so I do not have a handy reference to check how things really went within the conversations. But from what I can recall, in one of the conversations Kelli mentioned that ONE (1) thread kept on coming up in Google searches concerning Hayden and she would like to have it removed for that reason. From what I remember, I simply told Kelli to send me the link to that thread, and if possible I will delete it. The reason for my taking care to state "if possible" is simple: Too many people would just love an excuse to claim I delete things to sweep stuff under the carpet rather than leaving it as a readily accessible record of what goes on here. And anyone who even thinks this could not possibly happen just has not been here for any length of time. So I tend to be very cautious about what I do in order NOT to give the wrong impression. In any event, I never received the requested link, and promply just forgot about it. As for the suggestion about MULTIPLE threads, sorry, I just don't remember it that way at all. If it had been put that way, I would have plainly told Kelli that it was unlikely I could delete ALL the threads for the above mentioned reason.
Recently Kelli did send me links to two threads that she requested to be deleted, and I did review them to see what the content was. To be perfectly honest, both of those threads (
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69977 &
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69969) were pretty ugly. But they were not ugly towards Hayden nor Kelli at all. Actually they painted a pretty ugly picture that basically stemmed from what Kelli is apologizing for in this thread. As such, I declined to delete those threads, because as I stated to Kelli as my reason, those threads paint a pretty accurate picture explaining MY attitude lately and why things have become the way they now are on this site. In a nutshell, that whole episode in the Fauna Evolution has knocked the feet out from under me in the way I look upon what I wanted this site to accomplish and who I wanted it to accomplish such things for. Seeing no need to expand on that thought further, I will leave it to you to surmise what I am talking about.
SteveHiss said:
Rich, I am saying it here, for anyone and everyone to read. I am very sorry, and I was wrong. I am not saying this because I want to be unbanned, I do not care about that. I am saying it because I want and need to, and because it is the truth, and I am saying it because I think both Rich and myself need some closure on all of this.
Ah closure..... Yeah, that would be nice. But how big do the sutures have to be to do that? What has your being wrong about me cost me and this site, Kelli? So let's back up a bit so I can explain some of my thought process during the bans I felt prudent to subject you to. Perhaps getting this purged from MY system can help with that closure thing.
Firstly, when I was pointed to that thread on your site, Kelli, it was pretty eye opening (to say the least!) to see some people being pretty candid about their animosity towards me and other members here. If anyone is not familiar with this thread, a copy of it is posted within a thread on this site ->
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81309. Yeah, I expected to have bad guys hating my guts because of what I had created here, but it was quite a shock to see such words coming from people I considered as "good guys" in this trade. Not to mention that some were moderators here as well. I had recently had some cases of moderators going off the deep end over some issues and in a case of blatant spite, delete posts and threads under their control. Obviously there was every bit as much spite evidently showing in that thread from persons who had moderator rights in forums on this site. For me to ignore the danger and not do something about it IMMEDIATELY would have been pure folly and irresponsible on my part. So Kelli was banned to try to limit any POTENTIAL damages, as were a few other participants within that thread. For some of them, I have no excuse other than I was just angry at what they had written. Perhaps not the best excuse to use, but I suspect many people in my shoes probably would have felt the same exact way.
Once I removed the moderator status from members who partook of that bashing, and then modified the permission set to restrict their ability to edit and delete older messages, then I could sit back and evaluate the situation more objectively. Honestly I don't remember the timeframe, but it is probably in that thread mentioned above, where I finally lifted the ban on Kelli and others. One thought I do recall thinking at the time, after some phone conversations with Kelli, was that perhaps her vocalizing the realization of her error in judgement, it would help straighten out all of the other people who evidently share this opinion cultivated by Chris Johnson and supported by Kelli's acceptance of it at face value. Obviously it would have been a self defeating situation if Kelli and some of those others, were banned from here at that time to attempt to mend this situation.
So time passed. I think another phone call or two and perhaps some emails passed between Kelli and myself during this time while I was waiting for the apology she had offered to publicly admit what she was telling me privately. I think a bit over a month passed. And all the while, I watched the participation of the Leopard Gecko Discussion forum drain down to nothing. Members who were obviously seriously engaged with leopard geckos in business and hobby were still frequenting this site, but apparently were studiously avoiding posting in that forum. It became pretty obvious to me that not only was there a concerted effort at boycotting that Leopard Gecko forum, but equally obviously that anyone participating there was apparently being recruited to Kelli's site and in my opinion quite likely being given substantial reasons why they should avoid THIS site in deference to Kelli's site. So the thought that came uppermost to my mind was, "Is Kelli telling me the truth about that apology and all that it means behind it, or is this just a stalling process while she gets the building blocks and participation well under way to her own site?"
Ordinarily, I really don't care that someone sets up another website, even being pretty much a carbon copy of this site. More power to you. But this was quite different. Was the reason that leopard gecko enthusiasts were dropping this site like a hot potato because of a continuation of the "misunderstanding" still being propagated? Or was it just that somehow through some psychic means that ALL of those members found Kelli's site and migrated en masse, following Kelli and others simply because they were THERE?
Well, it should be pretty obvious what I thought was going on. And to be honest, it made me feel the fool for believing yet again what someone had told me. Probably because I really wanted to believe that finally the motives were made clear and a healing of this rift caused by a purposely (in my opinion) crafted ploy by Chris Johnson to cause such a rift. Let me back up just a bit, while I am thinking of it. Many of you may not remember but at the time Chris was doing this, he had his own message board system running that was pretty much a carbon copy of this one. And it was floundering for lack of members. Chris was smart enough to realize that he had nothing to offer anyone to pull them away from this site unless he could make this site appear bad enough that people would WANT to leave and go elsewhere. And that, I believe, was his game. And necessarily, it required Kelli and a few others to buy into that plan in order for it to have any chance at all to succeed. Personally I could not have cared less about Chris's site. Matter of fact, I didn't have a problem with him running banner ads here as well as a sponsorship link to his site. Even suspecting his role in what he was doing, I STILL had no problem with him making the attempt. What bothered me, was that Kelli and others swallowed that all, hook, line and sinker.
But why? Was Chris Johnson all that persuasive or was it because there were seeds of discontent and animosity already planted that his claims helped bring to full bloom? Was there already some sort of resentment towards me and this site that his claims were seeds thrown onto fertile ground? Was Chris believable because people WANTED to think the worst about myself and this site? Well, that certainly is a puzzle, and probably one that will never be solved.
So anyway, back to the situation with Kelli. Here I was feeling foolish and played the sucker while watching an obvious boycott and draining of the members from the Leopard Gecko Discussion forum. Yeah, people can come and go as they wish within any forum, and certainly no one is REQUIRED to post or visit any of them. But it was an apparent and blatant slap to the face. And if there is any cardinal rule that everyone should follow in their dealings with other people it would have to be
Believe what they DO, not what they SAY. And what I saw being DONE was not mixing well with what I was being TOLD.
So really, my face stinging from the slaps, and pretty aggravated at being played the fool, I decided to refund any monies due to Kelli Hammack and Marcia McGuiness and ban them from the site. Not that I expected it would fix anything. Not because I felt it would stop the hemorrhage of people from the Leopard Gecko Discussion forum, but solely because I did not want them to USE this site any longer to promote themselves, their business, nor their animals. I felt that I was being used as a doormat, and the time had just come to end that abuse.
So, that was then, and this is now.
Here we have Kelli making an apparent sincere apology. So what am I to make of it? Both Kelli and Marcia have blatantly violated the rules here by creating a new identity (using their husband's name) in order to bypass the banning. This has been dealt with harshly in the past by banning the new identity and also banning their IP address (if possible). Kelli, at least, did not flagrantly flaunt this by trying to promote her business unduly in the new registration. Although certainly some people might argue that
SteveHiss is most certainly doing that. Possible true, but for argument's sake (or lack thereof) I choose to ignore that. Marcia, on the other hand, continually replaced the member title field with something like "Mr. Golden Gate Gecko" even after I warned her to NOT use that new identity to promote herself, her business, nor her animals. As such, that new ID was banned and her IP address blocked. It was obvious to me that she was just being spiteful and thumbing her nose at me via that method. So obviously I had no choice but to do what I did.
Anyway back to Kelli......... Quite honestly, I have lost a lot of steam over my desire for this site to go in any particular direction. Mostly because of this particular episode on this site. It has just worn away my will to really care about this site or whether or not it helps anyone at all. It just is not worth the effort I have had to expend, and for me to put up with all the turf wars, battle of wits, and the petty and spiteful things people will do just because they want to be that way. So is Kelli sincere with her apology? Has she truly come to accept my word over Chris Johnson's word? What would be accomplished by my not accepting Kelli's word at face value? What would be the drawbacks of my accepting the apology simply based on nothing else more than I just WANT it to be sincere?
Honestly, in both cases, I don't see much changing around here at all. I've had my feet crapped on by all those people who abandoned the leopard gecko forum here, and to be quite honest, I really don't care one way or the other if they ever come back. I have already accepted the fact that the discussion forums here are only padding around the BOI and I am content with that situation. I will likely merge several of the discussion forums together anyway and quite possibly there won't BE a dedicated leopard gecko forum here any longer.
So, for anyone not dozing off by now, I need to just wrap this up. Personally, I want to believe Kelli. Personally, I have learned to not really trust many people at all. And personally, although I seriously doubt that the rift can actually be healed, nothing much will be served by my continuing the ban against her. What damage that could be done, has already been done. I actually don't have a clue about WHY she would want to come back here. I've been banned from a site, which as since been lifted, and I have absolutely NO desire to ever go back there again. So with that in mind, I seriously doubt that even lifting the ban, that Kelli would have much incentive to come back here anyway. So what would be the harm in lifting the ban? Actually continuing to keep the ban in place probably just makes me look spiteful and petty and really serves no purpose anyway. I mean, she already HAS bypassed the ban anyway. And the world didn't come to an end.............. Certainly MANY people fully realized Stevehiss was in reality Kelli anyway.
Yeah, I know there was a lot posted here, but I needed to get this off my chest and be done with it. I'm sure some people are going to attack what I have written here with scalpel and bludgeon, but go ahead. Right now I think the main criteria I need to use for banning is to utilize it solely for people who just piss me off. And no, right now, I am NOT pissed off at Kelli Hammack. I hope her apology is sincere, because I sincerely did NOT do things in the manner portrayed by Chris Johnson. She did go through a major traumatic experience, and yes, I can fully understand how something like that could warp a person's perceptions. It has nothing at all to do with being the "bigger man" or any of that crap. I just can't hold a grudge against someone who WAS wrong. Even if it is not truly sincere now, eventually I hope Kelli will understand the truth.
So, for the record, yes, I have lifted the ban on Kelli. And as some have probably noticed by now, I have also lifted bans on nearly everyone else who was banned here in the past. It's time to just move on........
