about siklback and their husbandry

[Denisebme]

Please understand that it's not that I don't have the patience but I really don't have the time to decifer the first few posts in this thread. I am also having some health issues and it really hurts my brain trying to figure out what's what.
I would like to know, in plain english, in such a way that I can understand if there was any inbreeding taking place to create the silks. Yes or No.
If you don't have first hand knowledge but happens to be a much better person then myself and read this entire thread AND understands it, I would appreciate your input as I seem to be lost.

Thank you.

The answer to your question is yes.
Hope you feel better soon.

 

[puppytoes72]

denise,i know who you are talking about and it makes me cringe too

 

[Wolfy-hound]

Could we please keep the thread to the subject and debate the adeno virus in the other threads about it?
The inbreeding has been explained several times.
Technically you could say they were somewhat line bred.
Technically it's not inbreeding.
He said he took the clutch, divided it and OUTCROSSED them to other unrelated dragons. Then he took babies and bred them to unrelated. THEN he took babies and bred them to babies from the OTHER babies descended from the other half.
It's a co-dom trait. Therefor extensive outcrossing is available, and that negates some of the genetic closeness. It's not brother to sister. It's more like 3rd or 4th cousins. Technically it's a form of inbreeding called line breeding and line crossing.
I personally wouldn't worry about the genes in this situation, rather I'd only worry about the traits that haven't been studied closely enough.
So far Alessendro said that the skin is tough enough to not tear up. He said they bask in the same temputures as his other normal dragons, which is a lower temp than U.S. dragons are generally kept. So far no abnormal health issues have been observed in them.
So... until it's shown that there is some sort of health issue inherant in this particular co-dom gene, the silkbacks seem okay health wise, if odd in appreance.
SO FAR.
Any observations I missed? I'm trying to summarize here.
Wolfy

 

[puppytoes72]

Could we please keep the thread to the subject and debate the adeno virus in the other threads about it?
The inbreeding has been explained several times.
Technically you could say they were somewhat line bred.
Technically it's not inbreeding.
He said he took the clutch, divided it and OUTCROSSED them to other unrelated dragons. Then he took babies and bred them to unrelated. THEN he took babies and bred them to babies from the OTHER babies descended from the other half.
It's a co-dom trait. Therefor extensive outcrossing is available, and that negates some of the genetic closeness. It's not brother to sister. It's more like 3rd or 4th cousins. Technically it's a form of inbreeding called line breeding and line crossing.
I personally wouldn't worry about the genes in this situation, rather I'd only worry about the traits that haven't been studied closely enough.
So far Alessendro said that the skin is tough enough to not tear up. He said they bask in the same temputures as his other normal dragons, which is a lower temp than U.S. dragons are generally kept. So far no abnormal health issues have been observed in them.
So... until it's shown that there is some sort of health issue inherant in this particular co-dom gene, the silkbacks seem okay health wise, if odd in appreance.
SO FAR.
Any observations I missed? I'm trying to summarize here.
Wolfy

so that would be a "yes"?

 

[Tere Salazar]

denise,i know who you are talking about and it makes me cringe too

He was probably the lucky recipient of one brainwashing phone call from the Dachius telling him how it was okay to do this...the sad thing is he believed them.

 

[whiskersmom]

Thank you Denise. That's what I thougt.
One more question.....how do they know what problems this mutation will encounter in the future as a direct result of this inbreeding?

 

[Denisebme]

Thank you Denise. That's what I thougt.
One more question.....how do they know what problems this mutation will encounter in the future as a direct result of this inbreeding?

At this point, its not the inbreeding, or line breeding, that is the biggest issue, at least not in my opinion. Its the inability of these critters to process Keratin, an issue it appears that they would like to see just go away.
There are very few of these little mutants around right now, they were just created, and I use that word intentionally, in the last year. My understanding is that none of them have been bred yet, so they haven't had to deal with the damage that a full grown bearded dragons teeth and nails can do during the breeding process.

 

[puppytoes72]

At this point, its not the inbreeding, or line breeding, that is the biggest issue, at least not in my opinion. Its the inability of these critters to process Keratin, an issue it appears that they would like to see just go away.
There are very few of these little mutants around right now, they were just created, and I use that word intentionally, in the last year. My understanding is that none of them have been bred yet, so they haven't had to deal with the damage that a full grown bearded dragons teeth and nails can do during the breeding process.

denise,you never got your question about the keratin answered yet,did you?

 

[Denisebme]

denise,you never got your question about the keratin answered yet,did you?

Not by either of the parties involved here.

 

[whiskersmom]

Should experiments such as this be performed by just breeders? By anyone?

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Question copied from the other thread
Thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to discuss the genetics Alessandro.
My concern is pretty simple. The primary physical trait in these beardies that appears to be affected is how their bodies process Keratin, which is why they lack the typical scales seem in a beardie. They appear to be missing the upper two levels of the epidermis, the middle layer where scale development occurs and the upper layer which is normally made up of the heavy scales and spikes we are used to seeing.
I have a couple of related questions;
First, if you've had any skin breaks, have you noticed if the healing time is comparable to that of a "normal" bearded dragon?
Second, is the development of any other normal characteristic affected? In other words, are the nails and joints normal or are they more brittle? Are the growth patterns normal?
Third, and this may have already been answered, I've been gone a few days, are you tracking for any other issues that may arise? Unlike color specific breeding, this is a new genetic mutation and it may take a bit of time to see if any other issues come up from their bodies seeming inability to correctly process keratin.
Thanks.

denise,you never got your question about the keratin answered yet,did you?

Not by either of the parties involved here.

These are the questions you asked.

First, if you've had any skin breaks, have you noticed if the healing time is comparable to that of a "normal" bearded dragon?

We have not bred her and therefore cannot comment on how the skin has held up through a breeding season. But she was caged with another animal when younger - and received a bite on her tail. The bite was a good one and broke her skin - but she healed just fine and the bite mark is barely noticeable. There were no infections involved. Based on this incident, one would assume that physical breeding could cause harm - especially if the male is aggressive. ((There are other ways of fertilizing a female that offer no direct contact - this has been proven by many. Plus, a Silk does not need to be bred to create another Silk.))

Second question you asked.

Second, is the development of any other normal characteristic affected? In other words, are the nails and joints normal or are they more brittle? Are the growth patterns normal?[/B]

It seems to me that Ruby’s skin does not complete the folding process… nor I suppose, does the keratinization process finish - Whatever it is exactly that happened, it has not effected anything else that we have noticed. She is now 17 inches, has nails and teeth and her skin is not overly sensitive to touch when handling. She is a happy, outwardly healthy bearded dragon - minus scales.

I took a different approach on the Adeno threads and Denise's on the BOI because it was right. I believed Denise was wronged. This issue specifically about inbreeding being lead by someone who has never bred a reptile and someone else who couldn't even feed their dragon six months ago is ridiculous. It weakens the argument about the legitimate concerns others may have with this mutation.

Also just an outside take, the more adeno and other off topic subjects concerning the way some feel about Dachiu keep intruding on this topic the more it takes away from the positions of some.

 

[Denisebme]

Should experiments such as this be performed by just breeders? By anyone?

Intentionally? I sure don't think so. Would we think it ok to intentionally breed children with Downs Syndrome? After all, its just the bodies way of expressing a genetic error.
Remember, unlike some of the parallels, this is not a simple color morph. Its not harmless linebreeding, which is a politically correct term for breeding animals that ARE closely genetically linked that in NORMAL husbandry is normally done to get rid of undesirable traits and genetic imperfections. I grew up on a ranch, and on top of 16000 chickens, we also bred dogs and horses.
This is breeding to exploit a genetic abnormality, not color, but an actual absence of a couple layers of epidermis.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Also just an outside take, the more adeno and other off topic subjects concerning the way some feel about Dachiu keep intruding on this topic the more it takes away from the positions of some.

I agree, i have not entirely liked the idea that people keep mentioning Dachiu in the thread, and is probably another reason why Allesandro is not posting anymore.

This thread was not here for Attacks against somone, it is for the information ABOUT silkbacks. and now, the one person who can say anything about them, other than Dachiu, is gone.

Lets lay off the personal attacks and keep to the information in the thread eh? whatever you guys are saying may very well be true or not (and im at fault for going off topic a bit too) but it dosnt really belong in the thread. *shrug*

 

[whiskersmom]

I have no knowledge of what has caused you to loose respect for Vicki and Rob. They both have been nothing but helpful to me in every aspect of learning about dragons. From my observations of their dragons, physical plant, and their personalities and charactor it does not seem they would intentionally harm anyone or act in anyway that would not be honorable and respectful. I hope you have contacted them personally to discuss your specific issues. IT would appear this should be taken care of on a personal level not in the public forum. They have been terrific with me. I can only go by my observations.... Wishing you the best....

It wasn't an attack on Dachiu, it was answering to this post. I'm sure it was not intended for you to read this as an attack, just an answer.

 

[whiskersmom]

This issue specifically about inbreeding being lead by someone who has never bred a reptile and someone else who couldn't even feed their dragon six months ago is ridiculous. It's weaken the argument about the legitimate concerns others may have with this mutation

So what you are saying is only breeders are allowed to have concerns whether this practice should be done? And who was it that couldn't feed their dragons six months ago? What does any of that have to do with this thread?

And by the way, buddy, all concerns are legitimate, no matter what your lord and highness thinks.

 

[puppytoes72]

It wasn't an attack on Dachiu, it was answering to this post. I'm sure it was not intended for you to read this as an attack, just an answer.

exactly what i was going to say!

 

[whiskersmom]

Intentionally? I sure don't think so. Would we think it ok to intentionally breed children with Downs Syndrome? After all, its just the bodies way of expressing a genetic error.
Remember, unlike some of the parallels, this is not a simple color morph. Its not harmless linebreeding, which is a politically correct term for breeding animals that ARE closely genetically linked that in NORMAL husbandry is normally done to get rid of undesirable traits and genetic imperfections. I grew up on a ranch, and on top of 16000 chickens, we also bred dogs and horses.
This is breeding to exploit a genetic abnormality, not color, but an actual absence of a couple layers of epidermis.

Thanks again Denise. So the plan is then to exploit an abnormality? Kind of like if we sprouted a second head and then were made to mate to create children with two heads, right?

 

[puppytoes72]

dennis,speaking of attacks..who were you referring to when you said "someone that couldnt feed their dragons 6 months ago"??

 

[Dennis Hultman]

So what you are saying is only breeders are allowed to have concerns whether this practice should be done?

No, what I find hard to understand is that you and Michele have pressed so hard that they respond about this mutation that when they do the only question you could muster up after their responses is if Vicki was lying about how many silkies she received or rehashing the inbreeding question that has been answered on three threads now.Which brings us right back to why the other thread was closed.
That is where this was one is heading too.

 

[whiskersmom]

So what you are saying is only breeders are allowed to have concerns whether this practice should be done? And who was it that couldn't feed their dragons six months ago? What does any of that have to do with this thread?

And by the way, buddy, all concerns are legitimate, no matter what your lord and highness thinks.

Your little jabs are ineffectual and childish. If you think you can run some people away from this topic, you are SADLY mistaken. You do not corner the market on this subject nor do you get to decide who participates in it.
For you to say one person wasn't able to feed their dragons was low, very low and just shows your caliber.
We will stay and post our opinions for as long as humanely possible.

I bet as a child you didn't play fairly.