About the BOI and it's future here...

[WebSlave]

Lets not forget just because someone wins a lawsuit doesnt mean they get the money
There are alot of deadbeats that dont pay up,There for rich would still be out the money he put up Unless he went to a collection place that would charge 50% of what they can get back so Rich would still be out money
lets not forget most states have it to where you can get a case continued numerus times and in small claims court, Lawyers cant go so he would have to spend money on flying to each court date to be there in person or forfeit and lose the case by default
Not to mention there are caps on small claims which wouldnt even cover his air fares
and everything he will have to put up
So even if he does win and could get some money he would still be out of pocket
Just my 2 cents worth

That is true, in a sense. But those expenses would all be damages cited in the countersuit that will soon follow. Just because the case takes place in small claims court doesn't mean that the countersuit has to do so as well. I will have an attorney in that locale and I will have countersuit papers all prepared by that attorney to be served to the plaintiff (who will then become the defendant) when I win that small claims court case. Quite honestly, anyone who uses small claims court for something like this will be showing me pretty obviously that they don't have the funds for a protracted legal battle. So before they grab that tiger by the tail, they better know what they are getting into.

 

[dreck37]

Then i guess the Boi's can stay and you dont really need the money for Lawsuits because no one can beat you in any court cases so why are you trying to get money from us for what you say you WILL win all those cases?

 

[WebSlave]

Then i guess the Boi's can stay and you dont really need the money for Lawsuits because no one can beat you in any court cases so why are you trying to get money from us for what you say you WILL win all those cases?

Because the question is WHY SHOULD I DO THIS FOR YOU IF YOU AREN'T WILLING TO HELP ME FIGHT FOR YOU?

 

[dreck37]

But in these times money is better spent elsewhere and the economy is going to get worse

 

[Lucille]

But in these times money is better spent elsewhere and the economy is going to get worse

Each person spends his money where he thinks it should be spent. (Well, maybe taxes are an exception). Many people choose to support this site.

 

[wstphal]

I am not a breeder yet, and don't expect to ever breed more than 1-2 clutches of cornsnakes a year. But if I am going to drop $ on this hobby, and I am, then paying to support the BOI was money well-spent, so I did it.

I understand the "money is tight" argument, but if I can afford herps as a hobby, I can skip a pizza night out & use that money to keep a resource available to me for the future.

Other people's mileage may vary. I've put my $ where I think it belongs.

 

[Shadera]

I'm sorry but I keep hearing "I want something for free". Rich should do all this for nothing and if a problem arises an attorney should help for nothing so that the rest can have this site. I do not see how that is fair. If Rich should put his time and money into this why shouldn't every one else?

And the classifieds should be completely free, including all access to privileges others PAY for.. I mean goodness, why on earth should anyone have to pay for anything, right?

I'm just sorry I couldn't renew at my previous level ($100), but I gave what I could.

 

[hhmoore]

Steve,
As you, yourself, pointed out - winning the case doesn't necessarily mean getting paid. If a lawsuit happens, money has to be spent in defense. Getting a big IOU without real dollars stapled to it doesn't do much to replace the funds spent on that defense.
You are also correct that, for many, money is tight...BUT, if they are continuing to spend money on herps, is it really THAT tight? For those that use the BOI as a source of entertainment or diversion - like tuning in to a soap opera, or reading the morning paper - the money may be better spent elsewhere. A single bad transaction avoided is well worth the $25 dollars, though.
Unfortunately, the BOI can't rule out having that bad transaction - heck, I recently had one even after checking here - but it can help break the chain by warning others.

 

[DAND]

I just keep seeing those who have the excuses not to donate as the same person who is always bumming a smoke, comes to the party without any beer, always needing a ride somewhere but doesn't have any gas money, or the neighbor who is always borrowing something. The whole "I want / expect something for nothing" attitude just doesn't sit well with me. For crying out loud, the $25 contributor level is less than .50¢ a week.

 

[WebSlave]

I for one will be glad when the boi are gone since they arent watched enough I can now understand why people will sue you for allowing the boi bashing
Im sure if the boi's are kept the lawsuit's will come alot faster since it doesnt cost much to fill a lawsuit, But it does cost alot for a Lawyer you will be losing your behind.
Take some time and let the Boi's go for awhile and maybe the bashers will get the message
Steve Hodge
newly bashed by a pro boi basher

But in these times money is better spent elsewhere and the economy is going to get worse

Obviously your concern in this topic is not really centered around your budget.

 

[rbchesapeakeball]

Hey Rich,

If the BOI was made "pay to play", would the person/business in question be able to defend themselves without contributing?

I like the "pay to play" idea, but whatever you decide to do has to be what's best for you, it's your retirement, enjoy it!

Last week my wife was on the phone with one of her crested gecko friends that is just getting into ball pythons, she told me that her friend just ordered a morph for a very good price. When she told me who she ordered it from I asked if she had ever heard of the BOI, she hadn't. Long story short, she checked out the many threads on this scum, canceled her order and became a contributing member of Fauna.

I hope the BOI can stay in some form, it's the only tool we have to police the hobby/industry, but like I said, it's your retirement, enjoy yourself!

Rich Baker

 

[Justin Mitcham]

Rich your Banner on the side says 6000 people visit this site everyday to buy reptiles..

Thats a huge number of individuals visiting... but when I looked up the sites traffic statistics they seem nowhere close to that range..(I don't understand the discrepancy, perhaps I am looking at the data wrong, I am no expert). Seems to me if that many people are visiting everyday to buy something then that's a huge source of revenue... Perhaps charge each person $20 per year to use the classifieds. 6000 individual peeps in one day.. thats 120k based on them alone.. not counting the other potential sources of revenue this site could generate with that much traffic...

 

[hhmoore]

Charging for the classifieds was tried (only contributing members could post ads), and had a pretty bad impact on the site as a whole...I'm not sure Rich has quite gotten that taste of out his mouth yet.

As for the numbers, just looking at the index page, I see the following info:

Number of Members Online In The Past 24 Hours: 1687

Currently Active Users: 503 (231 members and 272 guests)

I don't generally pay much attention to those numbers, but I have noticed that the number of guests is just about always higher...often significantly so (as in 2:1). I wouldn't begin to guess how many unique visits the site gets daily, and I can't seem to find the banner you referred to; but, if we accept that 2 guests visit for every registered member that shows up, that's 5061 people (based on the current number posted). It wouldn't be that much of a stretch to get to 6000 from there.

 

[Justin Mitcham]

LOL

So people will pay for the Gossip column but not to Advertise..

So most of the traffic that comes here is to look at BOI threads? If that many people were looking at the classifieds you would think there would be more people posting and buying there..
When you divide the hit counter by the days this sites been up you get over 27,000 hits daily...but that could be 1000 peeps making 27 clicks each or 27000 peeps making one click each or just one person making 27,000 clicks LOL
Just seems like a lot of hits and people "on paper" but where are they???

 

[Justin Mitcham]

Maybe the banner should read:

"6000 people visit this site everyday to read and post stuff about there fellow herpers...."

perhaps that would be a bit more accurate..then claiming there all here for the purpose of buying reptiles.. which it's obvious they are not!

LOL sorry in advance for the smarta$$ remarks..

 

[WebSlave]

Rich your Banner on the side says 6000 people visit this site everyday to buy reptiles..

Thats a huge number of individuals visiting... but when I looked up the sites traffic statistics they seem nowhere close to that range..(I don't understand the discrepancy, perhaps I am looking at the data wrong, I am no expert). Seems to me if that many people are visiting everyday to buy something then that's a huge source of revenue... Perhaps charge each person $20 per year to use the classifieds. 6000 individual peeps in one day.. thats 120k based on them alone.. not counting the other potential sources of revenue this site could generate with that much traffic...

Actually, that ad was create several years ago when I was using a different script for FaunaTopSites that was much better at determining unique IPs visiting the sites. This latest script seems to drop a lot of them, but it's much better than that older script as far as spam blocking is concerned. I used to have to manually delete all the spammers, which got to be old pretty quickly. But based on the number of members and visitors this site has at any given time, I believe that 6,000 visitors is actually a very conservative estimate. Heck, according to the FaunaAds statistics I have on one of my static banners, this site got 70,719 views yesterday. I don't think it's much of a stretch to think there were at least 6,000 unique viewers involved in that number.

As for charging them for the classifieds, nope, that won't work. Especially if you mean charging people just for visiting the classifieds. Talk about a suicidal move for me to make..... Heck, I tried charging for only posting classifieds for a year and it just about sunk this site. So regardless of how good of an idea that some will think this is, it just will NOT work here.

So with that in mind, why isn't EVERYONE using this free vehicle to sell their animals, products, and services? A large increase in participation that way might just get a small percentage of them willing to pay for a paid membership and help with this problem as a side effect.

So spread the word and help things out here. They've really got nothing to lose to try it. Traffic has been climbing steadily, which means more and more people all the time looking at their ads.

 

[WebSlave]

Maybe the banner should read:

"6000 people visit this site everyday to read and post stuff about there fellow herpers...."

perhaps that would be a bit more accurate..then claiming there all here for the purpose of buying reptiles.. which it's obvious they are not!

LOL sorry in advance for the smarta$$ remarks..

Sorry Justin, but this thread was not an invitation for people to gripe about people coming to this site to read about THEM here. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that many of those people who come here for the BOI also take a look into the classifieds section, now does it?

 

[kensopher]

So with that in mind, why isn't EVERYONE using this free vehicle to sell their animals, products, and services? A large increase in participation that way might just get a small percentage of them willing to pay for a paid membership and help with this problem as a side effect.

I know that is a largely rhetorical question. But, I can give you one very insignificant individual's reasons for not posting ads.

First, I deal with turtles. You allow people to post clearly illegal ads in the turtle section of the classifieds. Even though I personally take drastic steps to comply with laws and regulations, and therefore would have little to worry about for myself, this fact puts a bad taste in my mouth. At this very moment, someone is offering domestic sales of alligator snapping turtles out of California. I know it can be tough to virtually impossible to police everything. But, I reported an ad where the individual was literally stating the fact that it was an illegal transaction...no response.

Secondly, the fact that you allow practically unchecked responses to the ads also turns me off.

Having made those comments relating to advertising, let me say that I have purchased countless animals from ads on this site. Checking the classifieds and the BOI are a regular part of my day. I just don't feel comfortable advertising. Who knows, I could be the only person that is bothered by these things.

I just thought you might appreciate the feedback.

Respectfully.

 

[Justin Mitcham]

Number of overall hits is meaningless.. 70,000 hits can be created by a simple program..and there has been many sites using programs like this to elevate there standing and draw more advertising etc..
6000 people daily is quite turnout... what sucks is there not really buying anything on fauna...so how do you know there shopping for reptiles and not just looking around at pics??
Rocket scientist or not...Personally I don't believe 6000 unique individuals visit Fauna everyday looking for animals to buy. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see there NOT BUYING MUCH STUFF HERE...or anywhere else for that matter!!

As one of the supposed 6000 clicks I look at the classifieds perhaps every other visit or less..there been times I visited probably 20+ times and never looked at the classifieds..speaking to many in the hobby over the last 8 years... most don't sell or buy regularly on the classifieds here..they read ,argue and post....so the statement of 6000 people coming here to buy reptiles daily seems a bit exaggerated.But I could be wrong.
I believe that if have that many people here to do business, then there's a way to make it work..perhaps redesign of the classifieds system is in order. In order for Fauna to work it needs a fundamental change... not just a change in policy,fee's etc..
Out with the old in with the new so to speak..
Perhaps let the 6000 visitors come up with some options..
Make up an email and Spam every member of this site..see what they have to say, what changes would they make if it were up to them..
Then discuss publically the options that comes up the most...
Perhaps you've done this.. maybe you havn't

A lot of people come here, but many are way too intimidated to post or get involved...and why should they..some are not as gifted at writing or speech and sometimes saying ones mind here can have severe repercussions for the business,personal and hobby life.. Rich your site has hurt some good people in this business...and no-one can say it hasn't 100%...how many are enemies here just because of difference in opinions. I recently was ripped off by a person on this site...but instead of posting..I kept it to myself..seems like the threads can become more traumatic than getting ripped..I am sure that wasn't your intention...but I am one of many who feel this way.
I myself can point out a dozen times I was right but wrong on here...to later be right again...LOL...that's a rollercoaster ride.. TSE , Gilbert Thompson, Corey Woods, David Dedrick etc..etc.. courts of public opinion are brutal..maybe this is the problem..the site is too harsh and quick to judge..Some of the biggest crooks our industry has seen used social networking here to advance there biz...for example TSE...always asking it's customers to post good experiences of them on the BOI..to what end??
Personally this site cuts both ways...it is incapable by design to be 100% right or fair...no court of public opinion is PERIOD...but it also gives those wronged a recourse they normally wouldn't have available to them..
How many close friends have you lost Rich...how many have you gained..and are the ones gained your friend because they like you or because there scared of you??
So unless the site addresses these issues how can it overcome the consequences it creates??
Regards,
Justin Mitcham
ExtremeHogs.com

 

[WebSlave]

I know that is a largely rhetorical question. But, I can give you one very insignificant individual's reasons for not posting ads.

First, I deal with turtles. You allow people to post clearly illegal ads in the turtle section of the classifieds. Even though I personally take drastic steps to comply with laws and regulations, and therefore would have little to worry about for myself, this fact puts a bad taste in my mouth. At this very moment, someone is offering domestic sales of alligator snapping turtles out of California. I know it can be tough to virtually impossible to police everything. But, I reported an ad where the individual was literally stating the fact that it was an illegal transaction...no response.

Secondly, the fact that you allow practically unchecked responses to the ads also turns me off.

Having made those comments relating to advertising, let me say that I have purchased countless animals from ads on this site. Checking the classifieds and the BOI are a regular part of my day. I just don't feel comfortable advertising. Who knows, I could be the only person that is bothered by these things.

I just thought you might appreciate the feedback.

Respectfully.

Yes, I do appreciate the feedback. Just as I hope you appreciate the fact that neither I nor the mods can possibly know every law relating to every animal posted in the classifieds. Not only would the laws relating to the seller of the animals have to be taken into consideration, but also the laws relating to locales where the buyers may be located as well. That would be quite a bit of ground that would need to be covered.

Yes, the sellers can be reported, but there is still the issue of verification of facts needed in order to delete any such ads. Quite frankly, I will not ask of my mods, nor will I volunteer the time and effort myself, in order to determine such legalities. That is completely up to the persons viewing such ads to make that determination to the best of their own satisfaction. And with that in mind, if we were to go on record by our actions to infer that all animals displayed here are legal (however that can be defined), then there is a clear legal implication that everything posted here therefore must be legal in all respects. And in such a case we would be assuming legal liability for any case where that is not true, and litigation may result after a transaction has taken place from an advertisement on this site.

So as you can see, the burden has to be on the people posting the ads, as well as those people perusing those ads with intentions to purchase. We certainly cannot shoulder the burden of the research needed, nor the legal liability for this service we are providing.

I hope you can see our perspective in how we have to handle this sort of situation.