About the recent policy change concerning kingsnake.com..

[cka]

Since I'm no where near as well spoken as some of the previous posters I'll just say I am in favor of a forum open to all discussion (good or bad) about anything pertaining to herps. It's a positive thing for our community to have a forum where all things reptile-related can be discussed without fear of deletions and bannings. As always kudu's Rich and the moderators for their time and effort keeping FC up and going....and yes, i did vote lol...peace

 

[sschind]

My choice was between no discussion, and completely open discussion for the following reasons. Opening things up for limited discussion doesn't work as we all know. People will not follow the guidelines, There will always be people who push things to the edge and a little beyond. I feel that it is unrealistic to expect Rich to watch over everything we say, and I think that Rich has too much at stake to trust the job to anyone else (moderators) If you allow certain things, where will you draw the line. Obviously, banning all discussion has made many people angry. Allowing all discussion apparently only made Jeff and the rest of the KS staff (as well as owners of other sites being discussed in a negative manner) angry. I understand what Rich was trying to do with the policy change and I agree with that. Apparently enough people are unhappy enough that Rich is admitting that he may have made a mistake with the policy change. Personally, I never looked at the web wars forum after the first couple of days in which I voiced my concerns and was rebuked in a manner of speaking. I look at KS as a totally separate entity which is linked to this site only through a common subject (reptiles) what Jeff does with KS is not my concern other than I would hate to lose a good source of information. What
Rich does with this site is not my concern other than I would hate to lose a good source of information. Why people feel they have to come on this site and complain about KS is beyond me. So you were treated unfairly. I will not boycott a site that treated you badly out of sympathy. If I am benefitting from KS then I will continue to use it (until they treat me like they did you, then I will stop.) The same goes for this site. It is unreasonable to expect people to ignore a valuable source of information in support of a fellow herper, espescially if the way you were treated is open to interpretation, or the result of you not following the rules.

Still after all this I voted to allow all discussion, Why? simply because I do not think it is worth Rich's time to babysit everyone else. Rich, I am not in any way trying to tell you how you should value your time. I am just speaking as if it were me in your position. If enough of you were crying that you couldn't bitch about KS on this site, then fine, bitch all you want. It would be nice if the owners and moderators of ALL sites could realize that what is said about them or their sites is not the view of this sites owner, but the views of the people posting the comments, but i doubt if that will happen. Owners of sites like this will alway be guilty by association. If I don't like the way I was treated on KS and I come on this site and complain, that doesn't mean that Rich is agreeing with me simply because he is allow me to post. Just as I seriously doubt Rich would view a complaint about FC on KS (if such a thing were allowed) as meaning that Jeff is agreeing with it. If you went into bar and overheard a few people talking bad about you or your business would you hold it against the owners of the tavern (provided he was not involved in the discussion)

Rich, If you really think that banning all talk about KS will heal the rift between you and Jeff (or at least prevent it from getting any wider) and if you think that is in the best interest of this site, or the hobby in general then I think you should continue with your policy change. If, on the other hand, you feel that this site (doubtful) or the hobby is missing something by not allowing such discussion then I say let it all fly and let the chips fall where they may.
Steve Schindler

 

[sschind]

If you really think that banning all talk about KS will heal the rift between you and Jeff (or at least prevent it from getting any wider) and if you think that is in the best interest of this site, or the hobby in general then I think you should continue with your policy change.

I should have also said that if you feel it is in YOUR best interest, and the best interest of your business as well, since that is really the most important thing.

Steve Schindler

 

[Gerry Binczik]

My response to the poll is...

NONE OF THE ABOVE!

I see no GOOD reason why kingsnake.com and other herp-related websites should not be open to praise/criticism in the BOI, just as with any other obviously herp-related business. Moderators already exist for that forum, and others are willing to volunteer if the current workforce is insufficient.

C'mon, Rich!

Gerry

 

[Laura Fopiano]

One of things that our Great Nation was founded on is the freedom of speech! I do not follow the "web war", I have never posted on it, and have only glanced at it once. My thought were "would like some cheese with that whine" or call the waaambulance!! How ever, running a sight like this requires diplomacy, dedication, integrety, and delegation. All of this has been done here, so if some see fit to continue with the "web war" then by all means, deligate! Darrin Chappell in another thread on this subject offered to moderate it, let him do it. Just remember Darrin, be careful what you ask for, you might just get it!!

 

[WebSlave]

Hmm.. Web Whines.... I LIKE IT....

 

[Intense Herpetoculture]

I think you should simply do as you wish; it is your site, your time, and your troubles. If I really have that big of a problem with it I'll just go build my own website that is suited to myself and I'll run it my way, etc. I think you are doing an excellent job with the BOI and I support any decision you make. Personally though, I voted for the second option.

 

[WebSlave]

I think you should simply do as you wish; it is your site, your time, and your troubles.

True, but for the most part, this site was not built just to please me. I do enjoy the technical challenges of making something useful, I guess, and maybe some disappointment if something new I set up lanuishes without being used, but that's about it.

I feel that this site is everyone's site. I'm just the caretaker here. Or benign tyrant if anyone feels that fits better. I will make the decisions that I feel best serves everyone coming to this site, based on what you all tell me you want. Sometimes lack of suitable input will cause me to make a best guess, but if I fail to hit the mark, I have no problems changing things.

 

[WebSlave]

I decided to stick this at the top of the forum. I think this is a rather important issue that I would like as much feedback about as possible.

Thanks.

 

[Stardust]

For what it is worth, I think all topics that include any part of the herp industry should stay open for discussion, and that includes other sites.
I always thought that is why this site stands apart from others, and that is the main part I like about it.

 

[WebSlave]

Well, THIS certainly is a surprise vote I found in this poll:

None! Drop the kingsnake.com discussions completely. Classic Dum's

Kind of brings to mind another poll he took part in a while back:

Do you agree with Jeff Barringers recent actions? (Poll ID: 23)

I agree with everything Jeff has ever done. Classic Dum's

Jason, do you REALLY think your vote counts on these issues?

But it is interesting to know the "official" stance on this issue.

Thanks.

 

[Classic Dum's]

But it is interesting to know the "official" stance on this issue.

No Rich, see when people vote in a poll such as that one they do it with a sense of animosity( I think that’s the word I am looking for, in private). I knew you were watching those polls and unlike you stated prior you can pull the information showing who voted which way. This also shows your users how well they can trust you. Now they know, that their laundry can be aired out to dry in difficult topics that they want kept in private. People vote honestly in them because of the anonymous sense they have when voting. Thank you for finally doing that, it only took a year. Humm 90 some votes and 3000+users lets see how fast those votes increase now.

Ive always told you Rich if you want to build a site that competes with ksnake by hard work go for it. But bashing the competition is going to get you no where. Here you are all worried about ksnake and Washington state just passed a bill that could seriously effect every single one of us. I find it ironic that the bill got passed with little(I didn’t see any) or no mention at all on this site by you. The humaniacs are taking away our rights to own these animals and all you can think about is ksnake. That’s pretty sad! They banned all monitors, crocs, hots and to own a snake you have to maintain 50g’s in liability insurance. How many people do think are going to get that kind of insurance for a pet? Not very many. Do you think the humaniacs are going to stop there? Absolutely not! Do you think they are resting right now after their big victory? No way! They’re looking for another state with a bunch of weak polititions to further push their agenda in. Washington was a stepping stone for things to come, they have been working that state over for some time now. Now we got you that’s runs a large reptile related web site, with the right direction and focus you could make a difference for all of us and our rights. But no you cant find anything but ksnake to focus on, how twisted is that. Running this web site you have a responsibility to get the news of this stuff out there Rich. Ill bet 9 out of 10 of your users that don’t venture anywhere else don’t even know what happened. What are you going to do when you cant ship your corn snakes outside of FL because its illegal? You got enough corn snake business to make a living on in FL? I hope you got that retirement fund set up and loaded to the gills because all your worried about is slamming the competition and bit by bit our rights are being chipped away. Sooner or later there will be no where to sell those babies you make your living on. But I guess your to stuck in your little ksnake box to be able to see that. Its sad we got everyone in the world working against us in this trade and all we can do is work against each other as well. So go on and keep creating and working the division, I know you see building within the herp community.

P.S. For you there is a positive side to this. When the humaniacs take away our rights to own these animals, in part because you cant get over your infatuation with ksnake and actually use this site for something positive for the reptile community as a whole. Along with you ksnake will no longer be in business. So for you I guess there is a positive side to this huh?

 

[Darin Chappell]

**Edited for content**

I won't stoop to this form of baiting. I had a full-blown argument pointing out the inconsistancies of Jason's post above, but I found it impossible to address his obvious failings without also incriminating the portion of the internet he represents. I promised I would do that, so Jason gets off for free today.

So, set back and enjoy your little respite, Jason. Get yourself a cool drink, kick back, put your feet up, and . . .















TURN ON THAT TV WHICH PURCHASED YOUR LOYALTY!!!!!!!!

 

[WebSlave]

I knew you were watching those polls and unlike you stated prior you can pull the information showing who voted which way.

Jason - I'm disappointed in you! Normally you will pull up a quote you can state out of context rather than just ad libbing it. I guess that's probably the comment you are probably referring to that was in relation to the Ikonboard message board software that was used prior to switching to this other style. In Ikonboard, you CANNOT view the results of the polls. THIS one you can. And the particular incident that your selective memory has brought up was in relation to my query about something that someone posting a vote negatively could have subjected them to criticism as an attack on me personally. I told THOSE people in THAT instance that I would not reveal their identity, EVEN IF I COULD HAVE. This poll is nowhere near that sensitive, nor was the prior one. However, I have afforded YOU no such courtesy, nor will I. Price of being a troll, I guess, since your vote was not placed with the intention of helping me to make a decision.

As for bashing the competition, I think the record of events speaks for itself for those that know the story. I don't have to bash anyone. They are engaging in self-fulfilling prophesies. I just have to decide if I want the evidence to be displayed here by people whom want to talk about it. Basically I can just decide to NOT disallow it. Passively, with no involvement on my part other than just actively ignoring the discussions.

And as for working hard to grow my site, yes, that is taking place. You, however, will probably only see the results, not the work behind the scenes now in progress.

As for the bill in Washington state, state legislators are notably unconcerned about non constituents contacting them with their opinions. I worked for the Florida Legislature for a while, and have seen that first hand. As far as this site's involvement, did you make up any sort of banner to call attention to this issue and ASK me to run it here? Must have slipped through the cracks, since I just don't remember seeing anything like that from you, Jason. Or were you too busy demonstrating on the steps of the state capitol over there?

As always, good to see you here Jason. Nice to know you're getting out for a breath of fresh air every once in a while.

 

[WebSlave]

Amazing whom can be a catalyst these days!

Jason, I have to hand it to you. I'll be honest, I was really leaning more to just keeping this site narrowly focused on direct animal and product transactions between parties, but you hit a bit of a nerve with your discussion about the Washington state issue. What you are saying is that I really should allow my site to be broader in scope and address a wider range of issues than what I had originally envisioned this site for.

Running this web site you have a responsibility to get the news of this stuff out there Rich. Ill bet 9 out of 10 of your users that don’t venture anywhere else don’t even know what happened.

I can't think of truer words spoken by anyone, Jason. Just because I have no time nor interest in discussions concerning the things other sites may do to their members, why should I suppress anyone's ability to discuss such things here? Especially when, in some instances, such issues may be FAR broader in influence and impact than the legislation taking place in a single state. As it was said by someone, where else do they have to go for this sort of information?

So from a direction I never would have expected, I got what I feel is the argument good enough for me to make a decision about my policy concerning the discussions related to other websites on FaunaClassifieds. I weighed each and every argument carefully, and tried my best to give a lesser weight to those arguments that appeared to be more heavily weighted towards personal issues with the people involved. Jason's reminder of my responsibilities as a webmaster were not motivated by anything personal concerning this issue, yet I feel his words probably carried more weight then all of the other opinions combined. Unintentional about how I would interpret them, I am sure, but true, nonetheless.

So I have made a decision. Some time tonight, I will be restoring the forum previously called "Web Wars", but I will need to come up with a more fitting title for it. Suggestions are solicited, of course. Something more in tune with what it really should be about and used for. No, I did not delete this forum, simply made it invisible to the public. I had suspicions that I may need to keep this information around.

This forum will carry most of the rules and guidelines that are present in the BOI, and as such, will be moderated to the extent that facts and opinions will be required to be identified by full name of the source making those statements. Personally, I will pretty much have a hands-off involvement in this forum, unless I have something of such import to post that I have no other choice but to state it there.

To all of you, and Jason especially, I thank for your input and guidance on this very touchy subject. Looking at the poll, with 97 people voting, 85 voted YES for some sort of place to be able to air these issues in public. Only 10 voted NO, and 2 basically didn't care either way. Even without Jason's input, this was a pretty overwhelming majority request. So I am going with the flow and complying with your wishes. Just please, using this resource wisely is all I ask from you all.

Thank you for your help in this matter.

 

[Classic Dum's]

TURN ON THAT TV WHICH PURCHASED YOUR LOYALTY!!!!!!!!

Boy that’s intelligent Darrin. How long did it take you to come up with that one? Last time we went around I told you to get a new punch line because you had used that one almost as many times as you’ve been thrown of Ksnake. So what do ya do, ad a couple of new words and put it in caps so you can say “look in your face, I got a new line”. Very disappointing I expected better out of you. You say you’re a preacher, for the sake of the children I really hope you don’t preach by the same standards you live, because if you do I feel bad for those poor kids and the morals you are teaching them.

Rich

This poll is nowhere near that sensitive, nor was the prior one. However, I have afforded YOU no such courtesy, nor will I.

I don’t expect you to but what I have shown here to your users is they may be in good standing with you now. However a year down the road when they are no longer in good standing that you can and will pull things such as that for your amusement. Have you ever wondered why your polls are so lop sided? Seems to me they always seem to sway they way people think you are going. From the stand point of a user it would makes sense after reading whats been posted here that you wanted to place that forum back up and were just looking for a couple of people to back you so you could feel justified in your decision. So of course for the most part the only people who are going to take time to reply and or vote are going to be people who side with you. After watching what has taken place the rest are setting back “screw it, why waste the time my impute wont matter anyway”. Why don’t you see how many of the people who voted in that have self interest in it. Come on Rich its easy to see your self interest all you got now are your sites. Lead people here, bash the competition hope they buy into it and stay here. Then what happens sooner or later they wander over to serpenco and fatten your pockets a bit.

And as for working hard to grow my site, yes, that is taking place."

Great I don’t doubt that in the slightest and if you can build this site and make it a great place without slamming the competition I am all for it and support you 100%. But the way you are going about it is the wrong way. Now was it just me or has it appeared to anyone that your site has gotten a lot busier since you dropped the web wars forum? Maybe I am wrong but it appears to me your forums have gotten busier. Lets see if they stay that busy when its back and everyone has that cloud looming over there head again.

As far as this site's involvement, did you make up any sort of banner to call attention to this issue and ASK me to run it here

Any other site that has better thing to do then plot how there going to get a step up on the competition had it on there. Ill bet you were to busy seeking out your little quotes that were taking a punch at Jeff to see it though.

Or were you too busy demonstrating on the steps of the state capitol over there?"

Obviously unlike you I did spend a couple hours writing back and forth with some of the legislators. What did you do when all that was going on?

To all of you, and Jason especially, I thank for your input and guidance on this very touchy subject

Don’t even try to twist this around on me it was obvious you were going to do it anyway.

Especially when, in some instances, such issues may be FAR broader in influence and impact than the legislation taking place in a single state.

Because you have a responsibility to let people know what is going on out there. In a single state? From what I understand the original draft of the bill that just got passed was written by the humane society after their federal bill got shot down. So yes the humaniacs did have their claws in it. I wonder what state they are going to go after next? Oh wait that’s right their working over NY right now. Did you know about what is going on up there? Or did you over look all that in your desperation to bash the competitors? You could do some good and use this site to stop things like that but I guess in the short term the money you can make off it is more important.

 

[WebSlave]

Thanks for your point of view, Jason. As always, it is appreciated.

 

[Darin Chappell]

:laugh:

 

[WebSlave]

Darn! I can't think of a suitable name to rename the "Web Wars" forum! Consequently, I did not put it back up as I said I would. Well, that's not the only reason. I just ran out of time last night.

Also, I am probably going to be taking out some of my own posts I put in there. This will be consistent with my intention of staying in a "hands off" position on that particular forum. Anyone else whom feels that their post is now inappropriate and wishes to have it removed may ask me to remove it. Afterwards, any new posts will not be granted the luxury of being removed upon request.

So does anyone have any good ideas for a name for that forum?

 

[Darin Chappell]

How about the "Net Niche"? It could just be for anything internet site related that did not belong on the BOI or General Business Forum.