Adenovirus Alert

[Rebel Dragons]

Lmao, that mass email that was sent out by Bruce, was laughable at best.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

thank you for comming forward with this, its a brave and true thing to do.

I feel horrible for your loss and hope that in future years you can, eventually, get back on track with extra healthy animals. You did everything right, and how a truly good breeder should. as sad as the situation ended up you should be proud of the service you did, as heartbreaking as it is, for eliminating the chance for the virus in your collection, and others whom youve dealt with to spread.

I hope all goes well in the future for you, truly.

 

[Neverland Dragons]

Please see the link below for a newly posted article by Cheri Smith regarding Dr. Elliot Jacobson on adenovirus in bearded dragons. It addresses recent comments made in a mass emailing by a specific breeder of bearded dragons:

http://www.reptilerooms.com/displayarticle135-flat.html

It has some good information and also makes it clear that Dr. Jacobson thinks this is a serious health issue and that known positive dragons should NEVER be sold in the pet trade.

 

[Rebel Dragons]

Please see the link below for a newly posted article by Dr. Elliot Jacobson on adenovirus in bearded dragons. It addresses recent comments made in a mass emailing by a specific breeder of bearded dragons:

http://www.reptilerooms.com/displayarticle135-flat.html

It has some good information and also makes it clear that Dr. Jacobson thinks this is a serious health issue and that known positive dragons should NEVER be sold in the pet trade.

Why bother with the "a specific breeder", "a certain someone" bullshit. The mass email was sent out by by Bruce at Sunshine Dragons. Like I stated earlier in this thread, it was laughable at best.

Wendy and Cheri, thank you for contacting these Dr's and taking the time to educate us dragon owners about the severity of this virus. It's good to see that most people are taking this seriously, even if a few are not.

 

[melindaste]

Mike Very well said..

 

[CheriS]

Sorry guys, you have to realize that Wendy and I both are being called names, threatened with lawsuits, ASPCA reports and anything else that can be slung right now to make us back down and not get this info out to everyone that can be affected

I tried to concentrate on the meat and potatoes of the facts and get those out to breeders and owners and not the little peas rolling around the plate.

I felt getting a statement to the community from the person or his staff, that is ALLEDGED to have provided the information in that mass mailing mess was the important thing and not diverting that fact.

We did not want this to be viewed as a "peeing match" with a breeder....... ya know, Wendy and I are females and can not to that very far!!

 

[Rebel Dragons]

A few more thoughts......

The way this is playing out constantly reminds me of what happened in the ferret world about 8-10 years ago. Aleutian Disease was new on the scene and many many breeders and hobbyists ignored the initial warnings. The parvovirus (ADV) was not well understood and people down played the severity of it. Many people lost entire collections and passed the virus on without even knowing what was going on. Causing many others to loose their collections as well. After intense testing and studying ADV was found to have several different strains. It's extremely contagious and worst of all deadly. It attacks the immune systems of the ferrets and is generally described as ferret AIDS. Even today it's not well understood but people have finally realized what a real threat it is. Most breeders and owners now test their ferrets biannually and the spread of the disease has decreased significantly. A high price was paid by many people to get the knowledge that ferret owners have today.

Now it's just my opinion but I see some similarities in the way some beardie people are viewing the adeno virus and the way some ferret folk viewed ADV. I just hope it doesn't take 8-10 years and countless beardies deaths before the beardie community as a whole takes this seriously. I know a lot of ferret people who still sing their shoulda, coulda, woulda's when it comes to ADV. I don't want to be in a group of beardie owners doing the same thing a few years from now...........

 

[melindaste]

WOW didnt relize how nasty things were getting.. Im sorry for all you are going throu. Just got another mass email. Unreal how nansty this email is. To me as a potential buyer I do not think much of what was said in this email.When you stoop this low to name call in a mass email. I think it is discusting..I thought we were dealing with adults not kids..

 

[Brenda777]

This is getting ridiculous. I am getting the e-mails also. I know its a big issue and I am sorry for people getting hurt and the miss understandings but isn't enough enough. I think we are all smart enough to research this virus and to ask questions. Why does it have to keep going on and on. I am sending an email to the people that keep sending it to me that I am tired of hearing it to stop sending it to me. I don't know what happened except what I was told and it it sad all around.

 

[Denisebme]

Sorry guys, you have to realize that Wendy and I both are being called names, threatened with lawsuits, ASPCA reports and anything else that can be slung right now to make us back down and not get this info out to everyone that can be affected

I tried to concentrate on the meat and potatoes of the facts and get those out to breeders and owners and not the little peas rolling around the plate.

I felt getting a statement to the community from the person or his staff, that is ALLEDGED to have provided the information in that mass mailing mess was the important thing and not diverting that fact.

We did not want this to be viewed as a "peeing match" with a breeder....... ya know, Wendy and I are females and can not to that very far!!

Cheri and Wendy,
I am so sorry that you guys have been put in this position. I know Cheri from Pogona, I know Wendy because I own 2 of her dragons from her breeding last year. I personally don't know anyone more dedicated to educating new owners than Cheri, and Wendy, well, I can not say enough about the two girls I own that I got from her, not only is she nice, but she has put herself way out there for those of us in this community, and that says more about her character and integrity than anything.
I am sorry that you guys are dealing with all this, simply because you made the decision to do the right thing. It's absolutely heartbreaking to know and understand just how much Wendy lost, I have a small clue about how much she loves and cares about her "babies". The fact that she has stood up here in the face of all that and given her time and energy to educate the rest of us is beyond admirable.

 

[CheriS]

Appears he may have tried to purposely infect someone else that was planning on breedings

Read this that was posted on BOI Post about Sunshine Dragons on BOI

Now watch him attack Wendy and I over this one. There is also a post on reptilerooms of someone that just got one from him 2 days ago, so he is still selling them even after the letter from Dr Jacobsone said that should NOT be done.

What is strange, is all the other breeders he is claiming that says selling infected dragons is okay and he names many of them in emails!

CheriS

 

[melindaste]

I have that same email with all the attatchments If someone tells me how to post it I will Post the whole thing. There is a lot there It took me about 20 min of readiing.

 

[Brenda777]

"Oops I posted this in the wrong spot I think so I am doing again. Sorry"

You know this is all scary. I e-mailed the breeder that kept sending me the email and told them to stop. I was starting to get worried since no one named who the breeder was but it wasn't hard to figure out. I am worried about my beardies, all of whom came from this breeder. My girls came from Starburst - Hypo x Snow/German Giant that came from Dragon's by nature. I was told recently that she died due to she would not stop laying eggs and got sick and died. My girls seem to be healthy. Can I get a fecal done at the vet to know for sure? Or can't a regular vet do so? I want to believe that they were healthy when sold. I hate to think bad about anyone. I just wanted it to be one big misunderstanding for everyone. The person I used to talk to at the breeder just seemed to dissapear and then the e-mails started.

 

[CheriS]

Brenda,

You or your vet can arrange the testing, there are a few test that can be done, some get very expensive if more advanced. but the one that most people are doing is the fecal EM test that the University of IL is offering for under $24 that Wendy posted the contact info for
Lou Ann Miller, MT(ASCP)
Service Supervisor
Center for Microscopic Imaging
College of Veterinary Medicine
Rm 1204 VMBSB
2001 S Lincoln Ave
Urbana, IL 61802

Ph#: 217-244-1567
Website: http://treefrog.cvm.uiuc.edu
Email: [email protected]

If you contact them (or your vet) they will send you the solution that a fecal sample goes in for testing to perserve it. ANY lab that has a Electron Microscope can do the test, but it may not be accurate if the solution was not used to preserve it. Some people have ran into that with them seeming negative, then have babies die and they finally test with the proper things and it shows up positive.

I am very leery of a breeder that says their local vet tested all their breeders and they are clear, as anyone CAN get a clear reading that way. I think initially Wendy had some tested that way and it was negative, then she used the University of IL lab.

Someone at a Yahoo group posted the last mailing (Oct 27) that Sunshine Dragons did on thier list, I will put the URL here, but not sure if you have to be a member or not to read it AND remember, he has ran a lot of things together so it LOOKS like it is the people he is emailing with comments, but they are often his own comments inserted in them. ALSO in his current email he has changed it from HIM getting these emails from others he is quoting to it looking like it is someone else getting them and forwarding to HIM...... its all very confusing.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/pogona/message/73958

 

[Denisebme]

Quick question.
My vet did not do my testing, she had it sent to a Veterinary school. But, she did not send me a fixative. She had me freeze the samples and deliver them to her frozen, she said they didn't need to be fixed until they thawed.
Please tell me I did it right. I just got to breathe a sigh of relief, and I'd hate to think I need to start at the beginning again.

Brenda,

You or your vet can arrange the testing, there are a few test that can be done, some get very expensive if more advanced. but the one that most people are doing is the fecal EM test that the University of IL is offering for under $24 that Wendy posted the contact info for
Lou Ann Miller, MT(ASCP)
Service Supervisor
Center for Microscopic Imaging
College of Veterinary Medicine
Rm 1204 VMBSB
2001 S Lincoln Ave
Urbana, IL 61802

Ph#: 217-244-1567
Website: http://treefrog.cvm.uiuc.edu
Email: [email protected]

If you contact them (or your vet) they will send you the solution that a fecal sample goes in for testing to perserve it. ANY lab that has a Electron Microscope can do the test, but it may not be accurate if the solution was not used to preserve it. Some people have ran into that with them seeming negative, then have babies die and they finally test with the proper things and it shows up positive.

I am very leery of a breeder that says their local vet tested all their breeders and they are clear, as anyone CAN get a clear reading that way. I think initially Wendy had some tested that way and it was negative, then she used the University of IL lab.

Someone at a Yahoo group posted the last mailing (Oct 27) that Sunshine Dragons did on thier list, I will put the URL here, but not sure if you have to be a member or not to read it AND remember, he has ran a lot of things together so it LOOKS like it is the people he is emailing with comments, but they are often his own comments inserted in them. ALSO in his current email he has changed it from HIM getting these emails from others he is quoting to it looking like it is someone else getting them and forwarding to HIM...... its all very confusing.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/pogona/message/73958

 

[CheriS]

We were talking about ones that are shipped, not dropped off and ran right away, few people are in an area that the lab can test them right away. You need to talk to you vet to know for sure, I am assuming that she sent them overnight on dry ice and still frozen to the vet school. If not then use your own judgement what to do.

I do know that there are MANY false positives with just sending in a fecal sample unfrozen or without the fixitive. Once they are collected and stored properly, then they are accurate if positive. If your going to pay for a test, you want it as accurate as possible and no question of the collection procedure or shipping causing errors in reading

 

[Denisebme]

We were talking about ones that are shipped, not dropped off and ran right away, few people are in an area that the lab can test them right away. You need to talk to you vet to know for sure, I am assuming that she sent them overnight on dry ice and still frozen to the vet school. If not then use your own judgement what to do.

I do know that there are MANY false positives with just sending in a fecal sample unfrozen or without the fixitive. Once they are collected and stored properly, then they are accurate if positive. If your going to pay for a test, you want it as accurate as possible and no question of the collection procedure or shipping causing errors in reading

Thanks Cheri. I know mine were shipped frozen to the school, but I'll pepper my vet or the school with questions now to be sure I can trust the results. Oh, and I just posted the same question on Pogona, so please don't feel you have to answer it twice.

For the record, this whole thing has just about scared the heck out of me. My babies started hatching at the same time this information was coming out, and quite frankly, I had no clue what to do until you guys started the information flow. Even my vet really didn't know much about it. Even now, I'm pretty much at a stand-still until I'm positive that my dragons are free from this.

It is really sad that there are breeders selling infected babies, and breeders who seem to want to ignore that this is happening. Its shocking that this disease seems to be so widespread right now and the only way to change that is by doing exactly the education that you are doing right now.

 

[whiskersmom]

It is really sad that there are breeders selling infected babies, and breeders who seem to want to ignore that this is happening. Its shocking that this disease seems to be so widespread right now and the only way to change that is by doing exactly the education that you are doing right now.

And the sad part is they're not going to stop selling infected babies, as long as there is a market for them. Someone told me that most of Sunshines business is not from the internet, so that means there's a huge community of people that aren't aware of this going on and these HONEST people aren't going to be the ones to tell them.
I really feel like someone attacked me when I found out that Bruce was knowingly going to send me a dragon that was more then likely infected, Thank God I have the internet. How many more infected babies are going to be created before this is over?

 

[Denisebme]

And the sad part is they're not going to stop selling infected babies, as long as there is a market for them. Someone told me that most of Sunshines business is not from the internet, so that means there's a huge community of people that aren't aware of this going on and these HONEST people aren't going to be the ones to tell them.
I really feel like someone attacked me when I found out that Bruce was knowingly going to send me a dragon that was more then likely infected, Thank God I have the internet. How many more infected babies are going to be created before this is over?

That that is the million dollar question. How many babies are going to be KNOWINGLY created and sold to an unsuspecting public?
I've spent the last two days talking to every Herp Vet and Veterinary school I can find in California, first to insure that my tests were done correctly, then to try just to get a handle on what is good information and bad information.
I do breed on a very small scale, and at this point, all of my plans for 2007 have been put on hold until I can be as sure as possible that none of my breeders are carriers. Yes, I think most of us know that the negative results may not be 100%, but getting that negative result is a heck of a lot better than operating completely in the dark.

I actually got pretty lucky yesterday and got my own vet on the phone yesterday during her lunch hour, and she spend most of it trying to break down for me what is known, what is suspected, and what is still unknown.
After talking to my vet, I made a couple simple decisions. My vet feels that the most effective time to do the fecals on a healthy animal may be right after brumation, the first sample you can possibly collect. She admits that there is no documented proof that these samples are more likely to be accurate, but she says that if you think about the brumation process, it makes sense that there may just be more of a concentration of whatever is being shed by the animal after a period of dormancy.
So, for me personally, I feel that I have to make what I feel are reasonably educated decisions about breeding. My first decision was to do my testing after brumation, with or without the scientific certainty that it does any good at all to wait, I do follow the reasoning behind it.
My second decision was to retest my 4 existing core breeders, as well as the rest of my animals at that time, and to use the Lab at the University of Illinois for the testing. If by chance one of my animals does test positive, I want it to be a benefit to our community, and right now, that Lab seems to be the place to get it done if the end goal is research into this disease.
My last choice is to simply wait and see what happens in the next few months before I make any decisions regarding breeding, and until then, I won't be buying or selling any animals that have not been tested.

I firmly believe that Wendy and Cheri have, and are continuing, to do the right thing. While I firmly believe that none of us have all the answers, we sure have the right questions now, and that is all due to the fact that Cheri and Wendy came forward with the information they had.

 

[CheriS]

Denise,

I have never known any breeder that tested adult breeders, got negative readings and later produced any positive babies. I do think under the right conditions the negatives are accurate The only time we have seen negative readingsthat later tested positive (so they were false Negatives) was when the virus was so newly passed to them or in babies under 3 weeks old.

That is NOT backed up by any researchers findings, but by more than one breeders outcome in testing.

I do agree that there are many unanswered questions about adenovirus, but that is also true about most virus, including human ones. Add to that the fact they have the ability to mutate over time, in fact their primary interest it to mutate and not kill the host, information does change. HIV they think has been around since the dawn of life on this planet, yet it was only in the last 30 years that it mutated and was able to enter humans, and it has mutated since entering the human population. The thing that has not changed in ANYONE we have talked to, it that selling infected babies is anything but unethical and when you are doing it knowingly and to other breeders or owners with other dragons.... that is not right.

Yes, there are many offline sources that will never see this, but info is getting out to vet groups. that does give them heads up in knowing what might be wrong with dragons when they come into their office or they can warn people that are thinking of adding more.