Adenovirus Questions

[pdragon]

I would like Dan Wentz to come out and answer a few questions for me. From what I understand, he is the foremost expert on adeno with beardeds, and is the person who developed the test. I would like to hear answers from the source. Anyone who is able to contact him, please send him this post. Thanks, Josh

 

[Dachiu]

Just 1.

Josh,

I believe there are many of us with various questions regarding the adenovirus in bearded dragons. For right now, the only question I would like an answer to is :

Do dragons, once infected with the adenovirus, continuously shed the viral cells in feces throughout their whole life cycle? Or is it possible that the shedding of the viral cells through feces is intermittent?

If anyone can provide documented medical information that has been compiled through a controlled study to support an answer to my question - I would sincerely appreciate seeing it.

Thanks in advance,
Vickie

 

[Neverland Dragons]

Hey Josh-

I did email Dr. Wentz regarding this thread. I have never actually gotten a reply via email from him. He will even admit that he is really busy and does not check email often. All of our conversations have been over the phone. I am hoping he will be able to come and post.

Vicki-

I am about positive there have not been any studies that you are speaking of. Dr. Jacobson said you would have to start with about 30 dragons and test every 3 days for viral cells to truly find out if the shedding is constant or intermittent. I do know that Dr. Wentz had a positive male that died at age 6 and was still shedding viral cells. I also know that Clyde at age two was shedding very few viral cells, but it was enough to infect almost every baby that hatched this season. I agree that there needs to be scientific studies done with this virus. But I also think we should be able to look at others' experiences and see how this virus impacts other dragons when exposed. It is not a definite science, but I do believe it is relevant.

My orange line, Herbie and Tiger Lily had 3 healthy large clutches last season. I did not have a single problem. The dragons that I sold early this season from that same line were fine. They were tested and no virus was found. But, the ones I held onto because I started having problems with the yellow line all showed viral cells to one degree or another. I had ones I was going to hold back tested and they were positive. I am fairly sure between handling them, soaking them and taking pictures that I cross contaminated the babies.

When I had the dragons tested via fecal EM locally they did not show any viral cells. It took them two weeks to test everything and they did not use a fixative to keep the cells from becoming undetectable. When I retested, freezing the samples, using the fixative, all adults were clear but Clyde and all the babies but one were positive. I tested the baby that was clear a month and a half later (in case she had been exposed and not showing up yet) and she was still clear. So, I have one baby from this season from Clyde and Maggie and none from Herbie and Tiger Lily.

Clyde did not show any signs of being sick, he weighed 560 grams and was 22 inches long. I had no reason to believe anything was wrong. I can't tell you whether they are always shedding the virus. But I do know that under good husbandry conditions that Clyde was shedding low levels at two years of age. His low levels indirectly infected all of my babies. By the third clutch I lost 12 out of 24 babies in a few days period. At that point I chose to freeze the remaining eggs fathered by Clyde.

Of the orange babies that survived, over half were tiny. They were 8 weeks old and were the size of 2 week olds. There were others that were growing fine, but like Clyde did, I was concerned they would infect other dragons if sold. I was able to place some dragons in homes that I knew would not be bred or exposed to other dragons. I also sent Clyde and many babies to Dr. Wentz.

On a different note, Dr. Jacobson and Lou Ann at the Univ of IL lab are talking about doing a collaborative study with the testing methods. I am really excited about that and am hoping it will shed some light on the differences and similarities with PCR based and fecal EM testing for the virus.

 

[pdragon]

I find it awfully strange that he isn't out answering questions. Josh

 

[whiskersmom]

Josh, from what I understand this man is extremely busy. Working day and night on various reptile illnesses and diseases. We can't expect him to drop what he's doing and post replies just to pacify us. What he is actually doing is what's important.

 

[Rebel Dragons]

Josh, from what I understand this man is extremely busy. Working day and night on various reptile illnesses and diseases. We can't expect him to drop what he's doing and post replies just to pacify us. What he is actually doing is what's important.

I agree that what he's doing may be important but unless he shares his findings with others it's useless to us.

Is he working on controlled studies??? Are his findings going to be published??? These are things I would like to know.

 

[Dachiu]

Wendy,

We really don’t have any answers. I think its good you brought your experience with adenovirus out into the open and you have our sympathy for all you have experienced.

I do feel that things are usually not that cut and dry.
In Bruce’s experience, from what we have read, it seems to have not been that cut and dry. It seems he is asking many questions just like we have been and getting the “I just don’t know” for an answer.

Anyone’s stock and facility may be considered contaminated due to positive results and the fact that we know so very little about this virus. Human Adenoviruses are classified at Biosafety Level 2 according to MSDS in Canada.
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/msds-ftss/index.html - Public Health Agency of Canada
http://www.cdc.gov/OD/OHS/symp5/jyrtext.htm - CDC

We are not questioning the accuracy of the test Dan recommends.
One question we have is based on the discrepancy we see in the varying degree of mortality seen in dragons - You experience was a 50% mortality rate in clutch #3 and cross-contamination. Suzanne (other breeder) experiencing a 15% mortality rate in 200 animals. It is possible that this could be a different Adenovirus strain?

The major concern we have is : What is the consistency which shedding of the virus is seen? An accurate testing method is inconclusive if the agent you are testing for is inconsistent.

Which brings us back, full circle, to our question posted above.

Rob & Vickie

 

[CheriS]

Dr Wentz has a full time vet clinic practice, a wife and 4 children, travels many weekends to reptile and other exotic shows as a spokesperson for Rep_Cal and in his spare time, has been doing dietary studies, not ongoing adenovirus studies. As far as I know, he does plan on doing some more in the future. He always is willing to discuss his studies when he is at the shows and answer questions. I do not think you will see him online, or on these forums answering questions about this.

I do not think you will see any of the university professionals answering these things online either or in emails. This is due to some problems in how they were approached by someone and what was done to what they did say. Many now are taking the stand regarding testing or speaking to breeders and owners directly, that they will only go though your veterinarian or in persons. That is a result of them being "misquoted over the internet", "misinformation being circulated about this topic", "comments have been misinterpreted and are being misrepresented", and "conclusions that were drawn from my communication with this individual were incorrect and the "quotes" were distorted and taken out of context. I regret that this misinterpretation has been disseminated via the internet."

Has anyone that has these questions tried to call his office and leave a message with a receptionist to see if he will take the call or respond through them to answer one questiion about constant testing or shedding? If that does not work, another idea is to have your vet contact him as a consult with a list of what you want answered. Most herp specialist will consult gladly and answer what they can to another professional.

 

[Valley Dragons]

So the bottom line to all of this is that we JUST DON'T KNOW enough yet. There is really not enough information to even begin to be conclusive concerning the possible lethality of this virus in bearded dragons. I am not trying to downplay the experiences of breeders who have had to deal with adeno infection in their animals, but I am concerned that people may prematurely jump to conclusions before we have all the peices to this puzzle. From what I have read, the virus could be shed from days to years. That's a pretty big discrepency, and would make alot of difference when looking for ways to control this virus. This is just the tip of the iceburg. We need many, many more questions answered. We need to share our experiences and information, and try to put two and two together to figure out exactly how this virus actually affects the bearded dragon population. I hope that more scientific studies will be done, but in the meantime... Here are a few of the questions that I have...

1. Just how prevelant is this virus in the U.S?
2. What is the actual lethality of the virus?
3. Are there different strains with varying degree of lethality?
4. Exactly what ARE the symptoms to look out for?
5. By what means is the virus passed?
6. A Vicky stated, how long is the virus shed?
7. Does the virus lay dormant until the animal becomes ill, stressed, infested with parasites, at which point the virus is activated? Is is possible for the virus to spread during a "dormant" period, if in fact, one exists?
8. Is simple husbandry practices, e.g., cleaning with bleach, enough to kill the virus in the environment? If the virus is airborne, what control measures do we use?
9. Could a bearded dragon be treated with anti-virals to suppress illness and shedding of the virus? Could an animal being treated with anti-virals be bred and produce healthy, virus-free offspring?
10. Suppose we selectively bred animals who carry the virus but suffer no ill-effects. Would we eventually have a group of animals virtually resistant to the virus?

Okay, I'm sure I will think of more questions later, but I think these are all very important things to consider. I do plan to test my animals in the near future, and it will be interesting to see the outcome. My dragons have bloodlines from all over, which I suppose would mean the possibility that one carries the virus is more likely. All are in excellent health. I have only lost one hatchling out of 30 (this is my first year breeding), which I had to put down because it hatched with protruding intestines. All of my babies have grown like weeds and thrived. I have had not reports of deaths from anyone I have sold to. I would be shocked if any of my animals tested positive for the virus, but then again, there might be many shocked people with healthy animals if this virus is as widespread as some believe. I just can't draw any conclusions about this situation as of yet, but hopefully I will get some of my questions answered in the near future.

Jamie

 

[Dachiu]

The weight of Jamie's post can not be calculated.

 

[CheriS]

From what I have read, the virus could be shed from days to years. That's a pretty big discrepency, and would make alot of difference when looking for ways to control this virus.

can you share where you read the shed for days part? I have not seen that, all indicators I know of, including ones that have been repeat tested show them shedding the viral cells for at least 4 years (that is as long as it has been followed) I do not know if all do, but the ones that have tested by owners over years have

I am not trying to downplay the experiences of breeders who have had to deal with adeno infection in their animals, but I am concerned that people may prematurely jump to conclusions before we have all the peices to this puzzle.

We need to share our experiences and information, and try to put two and two together to figure out exactly how this virus actually affects the bearded dragon population.

First the only conclusion that I have seen anyone jump to is what is advised by every medical researcher and professor at any university I have seen,.... DO NOT sell infected animals. Everything else is shubjective to the owner what they want to do

The other is confusing, do you want breeders experiences that have dealt with this or not? This is why so many breeders and owners are afraid to say anything at all. On one hand they are attacked by the breeders that have this and want to keep it hushed up, cursed off that it is antidotal, which is about all there is our there right now. They are a few things that have been made public, but they get picked apart by the same people. On the other hand some say they want to see shared information within the community, which is also what all the experts advise for now, but many only want that if it supports their own views they want to hear

Most your 10 questions above can be answered from data collected from over 2 dozen breeders and owners with 3-20 dragons each (one with 400 was not counted as they were a large breeder and entire colony wiped out, excpet 2)... that is what it is, data collected from owners and breeders, not scientific controled studies, those do not exist and I doubt will in our lifetime unless someone wants to put up the $66000 for it that has been estimated to do a 2 year base study with 30 dragons. After what some have been though this week , I am not so sure they would even take it on if there was the funding now.

My dragons have bloodlines from all over, which I suppose would mean the possibility that one carries the virus is more likely. All are in excellent health.

Most those that tested, and had any carriers at all, it was one adult. One has three adults positive. one had a breeding pair and a large breeder did have most his positive, I think only 2 adults were clear.

I would be shocked if any of my animals tested positive for the virus, but then again, there might be many shocked people with healthy animals if this virus is as widespread as some believe.

It's either one way or the other, some really to try to make others think EVERYONE has it, from what we have seen, tested and data collected from many people, that is not so or remotely close.

 

[CheriS]

Unrelated to the prior response to Valley Dragons, it has been emailed to me that someone has twisted my comments prior in this thread and are implying that Wendy, Dr Wentz or me are being less that honest about something. And we wonder why the researchers will not come on and answer questions or want anything to do with this????

I said

in his spare time, has been doing dietary studies, not ongoing adenovirus

What I got back in email BUT DID NOT SAY was "Dan accepted animals from Wendy under the impression of doing continued research on adenovirus. You now state that he is not currently doing research on adenovirus, but instead dietary studies at this time."

No where do I say "instead" "not currently" or "at this time"

So there is no misunderstanding in what I did say, let me spell it out real clear. He did an adenovirus study, when I talked to him last in detail about that study, he was not working on it, he was doing dietary studies, but wanted to do more adenoviral test with unrelated pairings in the future- to test transmission to offspring theories. Prior all he had where related, from he same parent dragons. When the opportunity came up that Wendy had two separate UNRELATED clutches that tested positive, but had big hearty appearing babies that were not showing any signs, PLUS a healthy appearing adult male carrier, he accepted those to do the future studies we wants. Those dragons are only a few months old..... they are future studies as the females need to grow up to breed

Any other problems? please feel free to post them here, in the open to everyone, not sneak around behind someones back and change the statements to others. There has been far too much of that going on for 2 months now

 

[Valley Dragons]

can you share where you read the shed for days part?

I was referring to various forms of adenovirus - most which are easily researched on the net. There is not enough info on reptile andenovirus to be conclusive.


First the only conclusion that I have seen anyone jump to is what is advised by every medical researcher and professor at any university I have seen,.... DO NOT sell infected animals. Everything else is shubjective to the owner what they want to do

By jumping to conclusions, i am referring tot he fact that people should not start killing off their animals until more studies are done. I am supportive of not selling positive animals until we know more about htis virus


The other is confusing, do you want breeders experiences that have dealt with this or not? This is why so many breeders and owners are afraid to say anything at all. On one hand they are attacked by the breeders that have this and want to keep it hushed up, cursed off that it is antidotal, which is about all there is our there right now. (well, yeah, that is why I recommend not panicking)They are a few things that have been made public, but they get picked apart by the same people. (questioning things is part of my nature. Most intelligent people do not accept everything for face value, especially things that are not even well researched) On the other hand some say they want to see shared information within the community, which is also what all the experts advise for now, but many only want that if it supports their own views they want to hear (isn't this EXACTLY what you are doing to me?)



Most your 10 questions above can be answered from data collected from over 2 dozen breeders and owners with 3-20 dragons each (one with 400 was not counted as they were a large breeder and entire colony wiped out, excpet 2)... that is what it is, data collected from owners and breeders, not scientific controled studies, those do not exist and I doubt will in our lifetime unless someone wants to put up the $66000 for it that has been estimated to do a 2 year base study with 30 dragons. After what some have been though this week , I am not so sure they would even take it on if there was the funding now.

Wow, CheriS, that is great. Since you are so on top of things, then why don't you go ahead and answer all these questions for us. You seem to have all the right connections with the people who have dealt with this virus, so you should know the answers!


Most those that tested, and had any carriers at all, it was one adult. One has three adults positive. one had a breeding pair and a large breeder did have most his positive, I think only 2 adults were clear. Ok - so what does that have to do with what I posted?


It's either one way or the other, some really to try to make others think EVERYONE has it, (who's to say who does and who does not have it? I really doubt that there are many breeders that have fully tested ALL of their stock) from what we have seen, tested and data collected from many people, that is not so or remotely close.

Oh, really? How do you know? Because there have been soooo many tests done on this.....

Cheris, I will post my questions on the Sunshine thread for you to answer them so that all can see the answers. Thank you so much for your contribution!
Jamie

 

[CheriS]

Mammal virus and reptile virus- not even close in how they affect the host

I never told anyone to kill anything, not to sell something is a big difference, you jumped to a conclusion that was never said, which was pointed out by another on the BOI post when you did it. Breeders that have dealt with this virus have also posted that they were never told that. Each breeder or owner made their own decisiion after talking to their vets or other medical professionals based on their circumstances. But you can say and post what you want, you see how easy some can jump to conclusions?

Thank you for advising us all not to panic, that is good to remember. not jumping to conclusions is also good to remember.

Most intelligent people do not attack the very people that are trying to do something research wise, when they have done nothing themself. And then others wonder why vets, researchers or scientist will not talk to them, come on a forum and answer their questions.... or even want to mess with any studies for such a group of people and subject themself to the abuse

Exactly doing to you? No

I did not bother to answer, as I was pretty sure you really did not want any from me, I respect your choice in that.

You asked what does that have to do with what you posted? Scroll up and see what you said, it will answer for you, it is pretty clear.

Yes, hundreds of animals tested over the past 4 years, by breeders/owners that have pooled together their experiences, data, history, info on location the carriers came from, possibility of infection and cross infection routes, necropsy reports and pathology. Even identifying another virus that seems to appear in BD populations that was not known before and is benign. A bacteria that was never seen before and highly resistant that appears to be a lot like adenovirus in the symptoms it causes. That is what was advised by the experts like Jacobson, Wentz and Pare in the absence of researcher's controlled studies. There was no funding for that, so no one was doing any or wanted to. When there is, researchers often need several years of data collecting, before they qualify to apply for the grants. Also, assurance to the grant committees that they can secure the stock and it is much easier to get approval with already known infected stock, rather that a purposely infecting of healthy animals. Their advice was for "the community to help themselves", and in turn may help researches, that has already been done with YFD. But, they do no understand that for some, there is no helping! We all could have just sat around moaning about others lack of action, but we decided to try and do something constructive and supportive. You have something better you have accomplished to share?

Cheris, I will post my questions on the Sunshine thread for you to answer them so that all can see the answers. Thank you so much for your contribution!

I was not aware that this thread and area Bearded Dragons Discussion Forum was not available to all

 

[Valley Dragons]

Good grief, CheriS, if you did not know the answers to my questions, then why not just say so instead of posting a long rambling post that really does not explain anything. Hmmm...better be careful, you are starting to sound like Sunshine, lol. You seem very threated by my questions. I just don't get why asking questions about this virus is such a negative thing...

Jamie

 

[CheriS]

I am sorry, I did not know you did not want the other questions in your last post answered either, so sorry to ramble. I will leave them to the people you want to hear from.

Thanks for answering my questions

 

[CheriS]

Jamie I thnk you need to read post #117 on here http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?p=447027&posted=1#post447027

To your questions that really make me wonder about your modivaton, but to be fair I will answer what I can, no matter how childish you want to be

1. Just how prevelant is this virus in the U.S?
No scientific data on that. Many colonies test clear or if they have a positive, it is often only one carrier adult or a breeding pair and those offsprings, not their entire colony. I think Wendy will be happy to discuss this with you
2. What is the actual lethality of the virus?
No scientific data on that, it is on the necropsy reports as the cause of death or conclusions in several dozen necropsy reports. I think Wendy would be glad to post hers if you want
3. Are there different strains with varying degree of lethality?
No scientific data on that, no indication there are more than one, but possible
4. Exactly what ARE the symptoms to look out for?
See Dr Wentz's report http://www.reptilerooms.com/Sections+index-req-viewarticle-artid-47-page-1.html
Article with post by some online that is complied from people who experienced it- with updates since 2002 http://www.reptilerooms.com/forumtopic-74.html
Both will show you that the symptoms can have wide ranges, especially in regard to age of the animal
OR talk to Wendy, Suzanne or Andy, all who have spoken about it publicly and are willing to talk to anyone that needs it
5. By what means is the virus passed?
Wentz says direct oral/fecal route from other infected ones, and through the mother to offspring, (not known if from the ovaries or from stool as the eggs pass through the cloaca). Other possibles are animals to hand to animal transmission as indicated from 3 breeders who returned from one show area in NY with it seems to indicate (2 separate times). Also possible animal to furnishings to animal transmission as indicated in about a dozen other cases. No reports of air transmission, in fact it appear even when the opportunity was there, it did not happen.
6. A Vicky stated, how long is the virus shed?
No scientific data on that, to date, ones that have tested positive by owners, have always tested positive, up to 4 years now.
7. Does the virus lay dormant until the animal becomes ill, stressed, infested with parasites, at which point the virus is activated?
No scientific data on that, babies that do show signs of the viral infection within 3 weeks of exposure, all have died within 72 hours after the first signs. Babies that had been shipped off, came down ill and died within a few weeks in the new home of adenovirus, there was no knowledge when they had been exposed and if they were in the incubation period or a longer time since exposure. With older dragons or adult it does seem that there are factors that do weaken them and the virus overpowers them,(the virus was always there, husbandry does NOT cause the virus) such as egg laying, URI or other things that compromise their immune system. There are more indicators that the virus casues the parasite overloads, not the other way around. One thing that has been common in many infected animals in the same colony with ones that are not infected, is the difficulty in controling parasites in those positive.
Is is possible for the virus to spread during a "dormant" period, if in fact, one exists?
No scientific data on that or if there is a even such a thing as a dormant period, Jacobsons says it is possible, but no indicators it is.
8. Is simple husbandry practices, e.g., cleaning with bleach, enough to kill the virus in the environment?
No to bleach, I have been told heat, nolvasans or Quat cleaners(20-30 minutes) are more apt to kill them, It is better than nothing, and SEEMS to work. Hand sanitizers DO NOT work.
If the virus is airborne, what control measures do we use?
There has never been any indicator it is airborne, all indicators are that it is not, as ones without direct contact, but in the same rooms, air flow areas indoors or outdoor locations side by side remained negative next to positive ones, for years.
9. Could a bearded dragon be treated with anti-virals to suppress illness and shedding of the virus?
No Scientific data on that yet
Could an animal being treated with anti-virals be bred and produce healthy, virus-free offspring?
No Scientific data on that yet, Acyclovirs, including Zovirax and another med I could not locate the name of (I am trying to get this to you online as fast as I can, your not real pateint in waiting very long and I can not work that fast) has been been tried when the dragons was showing active illness due to the adenovirus with no success and in 1 positive, no symptoms showing female, that was gravid, but she died following laying.
10. Suppose we selectively bred animals who carry the virus but suffer no ill-effects. Would we eventually have a group of animals virtually resistant to the virus?
Could, not a would as it is not a guarantee it will happen ever. Jacobson says this is possible, it has happened before in other species and many virus including man

 

[Valley Dragons]

Thank you for taking my questions seriously and attempting to answer them.

Jamie

 

[Dachiu]

Whiskersmom asks :

I was wondering, if you have an adult dragon that has Adeno, will the dragon be less strong and more susceptible to illnesses? Do you have to be completely sure that this dragons husbandry is 100% correct at all times?

I believe the most qualified person to answer this question would be Wendy. She raised an adenovirus positive animal, Clyde, for 2 years.

Would you please explain, in detail, what you believe to be 100% correct husbandry?

Thanks,
Vickie

 

[Neverland Dragons]

Whiskersmom asks :


I believe the most qualified person to answer this question would be Wendy. She raised an adenovirus positive animal, Clyde, for 2 years.

Would you please explain, in detail, what you believe to be 100% correct husbandry?

Thanks,
Vickie

I can answer my part of this. I honestly think that some parts of husbandry are subjective and there is more that one "right" way to do something.

I kept Clyde on shelf liner with a basking rock at about 105 to 107 degrees. He also had a climbing branch and a corner cave after a year old.

Would spot clean his enclosure daily and clean with nolvasan weekly. He had a 2 ft by 2 ft by 4 ft enclosure with a Megaray MVB, 3 ft fluorescent for brightness and a basking light on a dimmer so it could be adjusted. He was always kept by himself. His lights were on for about 13 or 14 hours on a timer except during brumation. I also had a uvb meter to ensure his uvb light had a high enough output. It was at least 100 micro watts, I want to say probably closer to 140.

He ate greens daily which included mustard, turnip, collard and dandelion. He also ate butternut squash, soaked rep cal pellets and other veggies on occasion. His main protein source as a baby were crickets and silkworms. They were dusted 5 times a week with calcium w/d3 and twice a week with multi vitamins. As an adults his protein has varied between crickets, dusted super worms and dubia roaches. He received protein 2 or 3 times a week as an adult and greens daily.

I misted him daily and would usually soak him weekly for hydration. I disinfected the sink with nolvasan between each dragon soaking.

I can only speak for Clyde's health and the only issue he had was a mild bout of coccidia at a year of age which did clear up. I treated him with acidophiliz+ while on the albon and his appetite remained in tact. I did not have any other issues with him. I do think that good husbandry will reduce the chance of an adeno positive dragon becoming ill. I do not know that for a fact, but it makes sense that would be the case.

I think that about covers it. Please let me know if you have any other questions.