Advice on who's good and who's not at the Tampa show.

[KNOBTAIL]

CHRIS, you will have to be more specific

I dont know what you are referring to. If you would elaborate what bothers you about what i wrote, Ill clarify.
Also, if you think w.c. present a problem, and its a next door vendor, you should see what goes on in Daytona. JERRY TRESSER

 

[gila7150]

honesty has nothing to do with selling reptiles. At least not to diehards like myself.

The obligation of the vendor is to the money, not the reptile.

It's mostly these statements that I was referring to.
After rereading yout post, my understanding of your point was that vendors should just sell all animals with no guarantees, no promises and no background info. It would then be up to the customer to use their knowledge of herps to determine if this animal was healthy or not.
If I understand you correctly then I guess we disagree. While you and I may have the experience to make this determination, new herpers don't. I think that a vendor has a responsibility to steer the begginner towards a healthy, hardy animal that will further spark their interest in reptiles. (rather than a sick, freshly imported and difficult to establish reptile). We all started somewhere and I'm pretty sure none of us were fully prepared or educated when we aquired our first herp....that doesn't mean that person can learn though if they are given a fair shot with a healthy, easy to maintain herp.
I saw a vendor at Tony's Orlando show selling a kid an iguana with a small kritter keeper. He told the kid that it would probably last the iguana for a year. (this lizard couldn't even turn around in the damn thing). That kind of crap makes me sick. That's why it's hypocritical to hear Tony banning Brian for the quality of his animals. If he got rid of all the vendors that were selling freshly imported crap that would eliminate about 50% of them.

I understand your point about Daytona and I'm sorry to see Wayne's increasing tolerance of WC's at that show....but the difference between Daytona and Tampa are night and day.
Chris

 

[KNOBTAIL]

CHRIS, with regard to w.c. at Daytona

this would be a perfect example of what vendors do, not all, but many. Their are several that have up to 10 tables, and you and I both know these are not captive bred. They are their to sell, and their interest is in the money not the reptiles. They dont care whom they sell to, what theyare selling and will take whatever steps are necessary to complete the sale. Its about money.

This is also being done on a smaller scale at every other show but on a much smaller scale. The difference is the toleration of the promoters. Some are more concerned than others, but as you know, the promoter can put on blinders, and make silent exceptions. Vendors are basically the same, they are their to make money. Some are more inclined to parade their goods out of pride, while others dont care. But both are their to sell. Its just their method of how they will deal with their audience. Who ever is in front of their booth.

Now with regard to some of my statements. You are right, and probably more rightous than myself, but I offer no guarantees, no refunds, limited information on the item in question. I sell everything. Granted you may stop by out of curiosity, but I dont want the uniformed perspective customer. I want the person who knows what they are doing when they buy a $ 500.00 lizard. As a matter of fact, our converstations are very limited. My customers know what they are looking for, and understand the risks, and except the liabilities. What more can I ask for, as that how I buy.

CHRIS, I regret that I have to stop at this point, email me privately,I would love to continue this conversation. [email protected] JERRY TRESSER

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Brian,

Yes of course we use new syringes with every treatment. I get them for 4 cents each as I purchase them in large quantities. I admit there have been times that we have reused syringes but we boil them prior to use to reduce the risk of problems. Also in case your not aware Baytril and other antibiotics are not medicines that are used for treating parasites. They are for treating infections. Baytril is not expensive either (but a little harder to get, but if you ask your vet they can help you in most cases). I keep a 40ml bottle on hand at all times and when purchased it only cost me $20. Albon is only $8 for a pouch large enough to treat MANY animals(and easily purchased on the internet), and yes Pancur is about $9 for a tube large enough to treat multiple of my shipments as well as Flagyl breaks down to about 5 cents per tablet when purchased in large quantities. As I said I do not guarantee my animals are parasites free when I sell them but I inform the buyer what they have been treated with, how many times, and that they should have a fecal performed and a vet check up. When I said my animals receive a minimum of 1 treatment that is exactly that a minimum. If the animals have arrived too soon before a show or an order they receive one at the minimum. Most animals go through the entire pancur treatment. I have Vets that have purchased my animals and been happy with the way I treat my animals that they did not even perform further fecals or test. I have had the majority of my customers that have taken their animals to the vet come back with clear test for parasites. Yes there is always a chance but there are also parasites that can be found in C.B. animals. Take a C.B.B. Chameleon. Depending on who the owner is using for their cricket supplier that animal can test positive for round worms. I have seen it happen many times in the past.
I was not saying that all Vendors that tell a customer their animals are treated do as I do but the way you stated it, all vendors don't treat their import animals.

Also Chris, Daytona is still advertised as a c.b. ONLY show. This is just not the case. It all depends on how much you spend with him on tables. There are quite a few vendors at Daytona that have tables FULL of Fresh in Wild Caught animals that are being sold to unsuspecting buyers. There are also some of those vendors that have put C.B. on a tank full of Uromastyx that just arrived in the country to help sell them quicker. These buyers come to the show thinking they can purchase only c.b. animals which is just not the case. Anyone that believes that Daytona is free of W/C animals just needs to open their eyes when at the Vendors who have entire corner/end Caps.

 

[gila7150]

No problem Jerry...I understand your point of view a little more clearly now.

I want the person who knows what they are doing when they buy a $ 500.00 lizard.

I don't blame you for being selective when it comes to your CB knobtails...I would be too. Fortunately, the cost of CB knobtails will usually keep them going to the more experienced herper.
The vendors who sell low end ball pythons, leopard geckos, cornsnakes, etc will usually attract more of the novice herpers and I think they have a responsibilty to steer beginners in the right direction.
Kids look up to vendors and breeders. When I was a kid, I believed the guy who sold me my first iguana when he said "it eats lettuce". I also remember how bad it sucked watching it waste away from MBD while my unqualified vet had me force feeding it Nutrical. I learned from this experience but many others are pushed away from this great hobby when they suffer similar experiences.
I share your frustration thoughand I'm not sure what the answer is either.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

CHRIS, sorry I had to cut you off,

but I am back. You are absolutly correct, as a matter of fact, the lower the item is for sale, the more the fabrication about the "state of affairs about the animal in question" I have known from good experience that the Herp business at these shows , is like a pyramid. Of which 90 % are on the bottom, and these vendors who reside their are the "yes men of the industry" the remaining 10% are those who as you stated, are respected, know what they are doing, and are quality breeder and dealers, who are not so much concerned about the money because their items sell themselves to those who are in the "know" They to are in it for the money, but the difference is they have class! My booth resides between Ron Tremper and Frank Retes. 2 international well renown breeders. They are not looking for the 90% customer. But when someone stops by their booth, their is serious business going on, and I can attest to that! Ron and Frank do not have to guarantee anything. Whoever buys from them knows what they are dealing with. If anything their,conversations are short and sweet. I enjoy dealing that way also. Their is no need to become a habadasher pulling people in to sucker them into a $ 10.00 Leopard gecko. These guys and others have their feet very well planted and are secure in their footing. They make out very well financially!

I agree with you wholeheartedly that information should always be provided. You are also correct about your observations on the newbe, having at least an opportunity to get what they are paying for before it ends up in the garbage can 3 days later. But for me, I would rather have a show with big ticket items only, and with merchandize that I am trying to hunt down from other breeders than stand in line with a 12 year old . I would love to see a breeders only show, but my imagination sometimes gets the better of me. Regards, JERRY TRESSER

 

[dwedeking]

I see where you are coming from now Jerry. Two different demographics that are (and should be) marketed to differently. I think Class can be brought to both markets (as there is enough money for reward in both markets) with good results.

Probably won't see a "breeder only" show as the promoter's door prize (ticket sales) is driven by the masses.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

DANIEL, you are correct, but my friend,

I fear for the industry . Enough said, thanks for your posts, they have been forthright and enjoyable. JERRY TRESSER

 

[bpc]

Rob, I am very aware of what all the drugs are used for. Not all infections are caused by "parasites," or in the case of this discussion, worms. Most animals suffering parasite loads great enough to cause illness, will also be very succeptable bacterial, protozoal, viral, and even fugal infection as well.

Once again, before we go any further, when I say not treated, I am NOT talking about the type of animals you sell. I am talking about freshly imported CHEAP animals. Your animals are fairly priced for what the comsumer gets, but I wouldn't call them cheap, fresh imports.

When I said my animals receive a minimum of 1 treatment that is exactly that a minimum. If the animals have arrived too soon before a show or an order they receive one at the minimum.

This is where you need to fish or cut bait. Your one treatment animals are prime breeding grounds for antibiotic resistant organisms. You would be better off either not treating them at all, or keeping them until all treatments are done. Loading everything that comes through w/ panacur, is simply nothing more than lip service. It's a "feel good" for you and your customers. I'm not saying you're bad guy in anyway. It's a very common practice, hence the term shotgunning. It's just (IMHO) a very risky practice. Why panacur? Why not panacur, albon, ivermectin, flagyl, and oh yeah let's throw in a dash of Baytril just to be on the safe side. I'll tell you why. Because panacur ( and flagyl in most cases) is a pretty forgiving drug. It's hard to OD an animal w/ panacur, so, many people throw some down the throat of every animal they get to "treat" them.

You (not you personally, but any "you" that does this) get in 200 w.c. balls do 1 or maybe even 10 fecals if you do any at all. Vet says ok we saw some of this, a little of this, and oh yeah this one guys had this. Little panacur, little flagyl and they'll be all set. Treated and ready to rock. WRONG! What about the stuff the other 190-199 were carrying. What about the 10 or so that have a mild bacterial respiratory or intestinal infection. You hit em with some panacur and that does nothing for the stuff that's actually getting them sick. I think shotgunning does more harm than good in the long run. Especially when the shotgunning is not finished. When you don't finish the drugs only the strong "bugs" survive and reproduce. Then guess what, all those strong kick-ass "bug" genes get passed to the next generation. And later when these "bugs" bloom again, panacur ain't gonna cut it. When's the last time you got a penicillian shot? That stuff was a "miracle" drug after WWII but it just doesn't cut it anymore.
Why? Overuse, plan and simple.

I have Vets that have purchased my animals and been happy with the way I treat my animals that they did not even perform further fecals or test.

Ever wonder why not? Because the AREN'T SICK! If it ain't broke don't fix it. Why treat EVERY animal that you get? Is every animal you get sick? NO. So why waste the time? I'll tell you why. So you can say that you treat every animal. It's a selling point, plan and simple. Makes the customer feel good about buying from you, and makes you look like you take better care of your animals than the next guy. You don't give your kid a full course of Augmetin when he/she comes home from summer camp just to be on the safe side. So why "treat" all these animals?

 

[The BoidSmith]

Brian,

You made some valid points, but then you said:

Your one treatment animals are prime breeding grounds for antibiotic resistant organisms. You would be better off either not treating them at all, or keeping them until all treatments are done. Loading everything that comes through w/ panacur, is simply nothing more than lip service.

And...

Then guess what, all those strong kick-ass "bug" genes get passed to the next generation. And later when these "bugs" bloom again, panacur ain't gonna cut it. When's the last time you got a penicillian shot?

You are comparing resistence to antibiotics with an antihelmintic (Panacur). Their mechanism of action is completely different. The one-dose of Panacur will get rid of the adult form of the nematodes, while the eggs they have already laid survive. It is not that they built resistence, it is just that if you don't follow-up with a timely second dose (and eventually a third one), new nematodes will hatch from the still viable eggs at a point in time when the first dose of Panacur is not effective any more. Resistence to antibiotics is a different story as it involves bacteria and not nematodes.

Regards,

 

[The BoidSmith]

But then again Brian, you may be right. although I haven't run into a research article that deals with resistence to fenbendazole in snakes.

Kindly.

 

[bpc]

Alvaro, go do a google search with the words panacur resistance. It's out there, and the more people "treat" animals that don't need treatment the worse it will get. "Mistreating" them by not giving them the entire course will make it even worse.

I want to be very clear on a point here. Rob is not doing anything "wrong." The industry is. Rob is doing what many, many others are doing because most people want to hear that word "treated." Rob is trying to be one of the best suppliers out there, by following want most people consider "good practices." IMHO shotgunning is wrong, there may be some vets that would disagree w/ me, but I doubt it.

We need to treat only the animals that need treatment, and we need to treat them for SPECIFIC PROBLEMS! Not just throw some crap down their throats and call it a day. That's why good doctors and vets make you come into the office with new problems. The cause must be diagnosed BEFORE specific treatment can begin. That's expensive, and that's why you're not getting a "treated" ball python for $10.

My experience has been that most snakes coming in don't need treatment. Snakes are what I deal w/ 80% of the time. And I would say a good 70% of the species I deal with, come in in good shape and ready to go. The other 30% are what I call 50/50's some are good and some are gonna die pretty much no matter what, usually because they cannot adapt to a captive lifestyle. The biggest problem I encounter is external stuff like ticks and occasionally mites.

 

[The BoidSmith]

We need to treat only the animals that need treatment, and we need to treat them for SPECIFIC PROBLEMS! Not just throw some crap down their throats and call it a day.

Brian,

According to Klingenberg ("A comparison of fenbendazole and ivermectin for the treatment of nematode parasites in ball pythons" Bulletin of the Association of Reptile and Amphibian Veterinarians. 2(2):5-6, 49), fenbendazole is an extremely useful and safe agent for eliminating nematodes. Dr. Rossi further suggests "it appears to be more effective than ivermectine in eliminating worms commonly find in ball pythons" ("quote").

Here is just my theory on that first dose. A heavily parasitized ball python will be most of the times reluctant to start feeding on his own. By cleaning the gut of adult nematodes he will more than likely start to feed voluntarily. That first those will thus allow him to increase his resistence to disease by strengthening the immune system as a result of the vitamins and minerals ingested with his first meals. This will obviously be even more effective if followed by timely second and third doses.

In short I do believe dosing with Panacur is not useless nor harmful. The truth is that a fecal flotation (at least where I do them) cost $10 per sample. It is very unlikely that it will get done on ball pythons selling for even $100! Here is a proposal that might work. If all the pythons come from the sime supplier or even "farm" one thing that could be done is pool fecal samples from several ball pythons and analyze them. Treatment will thus be done accordingly depending on the predominant parasite species. But I wouldn't go as far as identifying specific species. In my opinion it would be enough to know if they are round worms or tape worms and use the drug of choice for either group. Not ideal, but maybe realistic.

Regards,

 

[bpc]

Alvaro, you and I are arguing to very different points. Yes, panacur, flagyl, etc. are effective drugs when used PROPERLY. One dose down the throat of EVERY animal that comes in, IS NOT THE PROPER use.

My contention is this, treating every animal just because it is an import is not the right thing to do. Not every animal imported to this county needs medical treatment. If they did, imported animals would be even less popular than they are. You, of all people, are smart enough to understand why there this prevailing attitude of: wild caught=sick, dying, parasite infected, bad, nasty animal. It's called business. If you are breeding ball pythons, you have to make your prospective customers feel that it is worth the extra $20, 30, perhaps $50 to get a c.b. If you're not breeding them, ( but instead importing them), but you still want to make that kind of profit on them you "treat" them so that you can give your customer peace of mind. I don't have a problem understanding the logic of either case. It's marketing 101. I have a problem w/ understanding the logic of the customer who's willing to spend $50 extra for peace of mind. I (me personally) would rather spend the extra $50 on 5 or even 10 more snakes and if I lose 10, 20 or even an average of 50% of them I still end up with more animals for breeding or resale in the end for the same money.

I buy probably 100-200 c.h. and w.c. balls every year, and have done so since about '98. In '98 I lost 98%, and that was after treating them w/ everything under the sun and spending tons of money at the vets office trying to knock back whatever the hell was wrong w/ them in '98. Since '98, this year has been the worst. All the years in between were great, with about a 95% success rate. This year the first batch of c.h. had a few respriatory problems, and we lost about 20-30%. The second batch were problematic feeders and we lost about 10% until they started to take off. The third batch was 100%. Then, when the c.h. stopped coming, I was running low and knew I would need more to make it through until Christmas so I bought about 20 w.c. I've lost one of those, all the rest are 100% after 6 or so weeks in. I haven't shotgunned any imports since '98. And I'm running at about an 85-90% success rate in doing it that way.

Here is just my theory on that first dose. A heavily parasitized ball python will be most of the times reluctant to start feeding on his own.

My theory is, MOST imports are not heavily parasitized, especially the young ones. Now, I deal w/ a limited number of species so perhaps I should limit my argument to them. But, in my experience, MOST imported snakes do just fine w/o treatment. If all these animals were as heavily parasitized as the "c.b. industry" would like it's prospective customers to think they were, there would be nothing but sick dying animals running around in the wild.

 

[The BoidSmith]

My theory is, MOST imports are not heavily parasitized, especially the young ones.

I agree, particulalry if they are CH. From that perspective I would rather receive a newborn that has not fed yet from the first time than a WC that has already ate his first wild rodents.

If all these animals were as heavily parasitized as the "c.b. industry" would like it's prospective customers to think they were, there would be nothing but sick dying animals running around in the wild.

In the wild some animal make it some don't, natural selection if you will. The fact is that most animals live their lives in the wild with a certain parasite load, as there is no such thing as a "parasite-free" animal. Under situations of stress, overcrowding, and malnourishment (e.g. while waiting to be shipped) their system is not able to fight back as effectively and thus parasite loads increase.

I have a problem w/ understanding the logic of the customer who's willing to spend $50 extra for peace of mind. I (me personally) would rather spend the extra $50 on 5 or even 10 more snakes and if I lose 10, 20 or even an average of 50% of them I still end up with more animals for breeding or resale in the end for the same money.

The difference is that the customer is looking for that "special snake" or one he likes from a group. He is not merely looking at buying 10 and hoping 5 will make it into adulthood. Basically they are not in it for the $. Farmers today think twice before calling the vet to treat individual cows. They understand how much each animal is worth but they also know how much it is worth culled (sold for meat) and how much the vet bill it's going to be if he treats her. If treatment exceeds the value of the individual animal plus the salvage value, then they will not do it, period. They view their herd just like you see your pythons with a herd health approach (population dinamics) and not as individuals.

Going back to the point at hand. I agree that there are probably lots of people that do not treat ball pythons upon arrival. Second, when I buy from anyone I ask them to be honest and upfront and tell me if they have been treated. Not because that will make a difference in my decision of buying from them or or not, but I want to know if I have to do it myself.

Regards.

 

[bpc]

The difference is that the customer is looking for that "special snake" or one he likes from a group

Agreed, I just don't think it nesscessary to spend that extra $50 to get that "special snake."