Info Al Brown/ Liar

[hhmoore]

(sorry for the delayed post - had to leave the room for a few, and didn't refresh to see that you had added the emails)

 

[FireStorm]

Thanks for posting the emails, Rich. It seems to me that Al still thought that what you wanted were more pictures. I don't mean this as an attack, but I can see how your last email to him may not have gotten a very positive response.

I realize that a month was probably too long for Al to wait to send you the info, but IMO that last email sounded pretty harsh. Given that Al's last email was sent from his blackberry while he was apparently on vacation I can see why he didn't put all the detailed info on the snake in that email.

Personally, I think it would have been nice if Al sent the info sooner, but when he responded that he was on vacation, instead of calling him a liar you could have simply sent back a message clarifying that you were more interested in who produced the "grandparents" of your snake than pictures of them (sorry, I can't think of a better way to word that at the moment). That might have gone over better than calling him a liar and posting this on the BOI right away. In the message he sent on his blackberry, it really doesn't seem like he's trying to avoid giving you the information...

Just trying to give an outside opinion on how the emails come across...

 

[allreptiles1966]

I'm not looking for the pics.I needed info like he posted on here today.Thats a form of lineage,right?
No formal document Harold,i know and didnt expect 1 either! But lineage is not 1 set of parents.
He did not send the papers in the first place when he sent me the photo id.Why?He said he would send lineage papers and didnt.He offered me pictures after i complained.His lineage should of been attched to this photo id.imo.
We all know that photo id and lineage are a little different.He bragged that it was 3rd generation and i wanted all info leading up to that.As much as he knows and has,
he posted some.He knew what i wanted,hence the above post by him.He talked all about it on the phone.

 

[allreptiles1966]

I dont think Al was sending more paper work.Pictures,yes.
Look,maybe i was harsh, i like my money and its hard earned for me.I didnt want to play games. He knew i was after the great grand, grand parents info,we talked all about it.How important it was i had lineage papers since i was going to breed jungles as a newbie to boa's.

 

[Lucille]

I emailed Al again and asked where the lineage papers were,i got the run around.

I was on vacation when this was brought to my attention and explianed in a Blackberry email I would be glad to send this info to him when I returned home on Monday October 31, 2011 and was able to get to my cpu.
.

.I didnt want to play games.

Right now I feel like you maybe played some games with us and you didn't tell the whole truth. I don't know why your seller did not send the pertinent papers immediately after the sale, he should have. But when you asked, he did not give you the runaround, he told you he would send something as soon as he was back from vacation.

What the paperwork should consist of is a matter that several different people have given professional opinions about. But you made it sound like this seller was ignoring you and he was not.

 

[JCCS]

Rich, the pertinent information on that snake when it comes to breeding are two things. One, that it's a jungle, which from the photo ID, anyone that knows much about jungles knows that it obviously is a visual jungle. The other thing is that it's het albino. Seeing as the picture of the sire is that of an albino animal, I'd say that it is in fact het for albino.

You are trying to be a pain in the rear end right now and whining for no good reason. In all honesty, paperwork is worthless. The reputation of the breeder behind the paperwork is the only thing backing that paperwork up. You were provided with great paperwork with that animal and are still here whining. I will tell you now Rich, never contact me about buying an animal, I wouldn't deal with the hassle of selling to you.

Chris

 

[AdamWhite]

It would be nice to see the grandparents of this boa in the lineage chart. However, it does show the sire and the dame, thus showing the boas lineage.

But from the OP's point of view, those could just be some boa's. He could just be saying those are the parents.

However, I see no reason to distrust him. And. If you dig a little deeper, you could probably find this info on your own.

But, this info could be included in a lineage record. When someone traces their lineage, they don't just stop at their parents.

 

[JCCS]

Adam, what's your point? Anyone could say just about any boa is the snake's parents. What use are the grandparents in the lineage in a morph breeding? As long as the parents are provided, life is good.

The paperwork posted by Rich is on par with the best paperwork I've ever received on a morph boa.

Chris

 

[AdamWhite]

Okay, I see your point.

 

[AdamWhite]

If a snake produces the morph it is het for, why do you need to know who the grandparents are. If the snake does not produce this morph, then you have a problem. Unless that happens, the seller was completely honest with you. The only problem I see is that he promised you both photo's and paper work.

 

[AdamWhite]

Thats ok.I am just about done finishing my collection.Have fun selling to others.Its your right.I wasnt looking to buy from you.
And if Al tells me its easter i'm suppose to believe him huh?How old are you buddy?
If you lie,you get called a liar man,what else can i say.I did not get what he stated he would send!I am not looking for anything extra.Lineage papers and photo id.Thats it!
When people ask for proof its a jungle because i'm new,and i say,i dont have any.Guess what happens,they move on.
Having signed papers and genetics to back it up sells!
Thanks for your special input buddy.
And God Bless??? Are you for real? Christians do not talk to others this way.

What, how could he do such a thing!?!?! Saying God Bless as his signature. Man, we should report this right away, we can't have something so horrible on this site. Really, lay off man. As long as he ain't cussing a rainbow in his signature, don't worry about it.

 

[shane159]

Al Brown is a stickler for selective breeding and it would serve no purpose for him to lie to make a sale. You should be proud to own one of his animals and be confident in its genetics!

* On a side note- Once again a premature unwarranted Bad Guy post rears its ugly head on the BOI where it remains for life for all to see. I know this comment probably belongs in the feedback forum but how about a process in which bad guy posts have to be privately preapproved by a committee of trusted BOI appointees ( I'm sure there is no shortage of volunteers) before they can be presented on the public forum. They wouldnt be asked to judge or deliberate, just deem if the complaint has merit have merit. Kind of like a Grand Jury.

This!! I have had nothing but outstanding animals and great transactions with Al. I have not read the entire thread, but I will vouch for Al without any hesitation.

 

[Chris Kennard]

In all honesty???

Rich, the pertinent information on that snake when it comes to breeding are two things. One, that it's a jungle, which from the photo ID, anyone that knows much about jungles knows that it obviously is a visual jungle. The other thing is that it's het albino. Seeing as the picture of the sire is that of an albino animal, I'd say that it is in fact het for albino.

You are trying to be a pain in the rear end right now and whining for no good reason. In all honesty, paperwork is worthless. The reputation of the breeder behind the paperwork is the only thing backing that paperwork up. You were provided with great paperwork with that animal and are still here whining. I will tell you now Rich, never contact me about buying an animal, I wouldn't deal with the hassle of selling to you.

Chris

If you're a breeder, I hope for your sake that few people read your ridiculous post. I can name a few people who HAD great "reputations" that turned out to be scumbags. Not saying that is the case here, just amplifying the reckless flaw in your statement. I see no whining here. He didn't get what was promised and I agree that what he got was insufficiant to his future goals. In any case, with your attitude, I doubt Rich will be the only one to never contact you about buying an animal.

 

[JCCS]

Chris, I'm not sure where I said anything about Al's reputation in particular. All I said was that the paperwork showed all the pertinent information and had Al's business name on it, and I believe his name as well. To me, that shows someone that is more than willing to stand behind his animals.

I'm not saying that Al is beyond reproach. I think Al is a good guy, have known him personally for years, but yeah, I've seen good guys go bad. I don't see any evidence of that happening here or any reason for concern at all.

On your thoughts on my future customers, if someone expects paperwork better than what Al provided from me, they may need to look somewhere else. I've never had a complaint about my customer service, in fact I've had many compliments. I will go above and beyond for a customer that has a legitimate concern, but I'm not going to play games with an irrational person. I've got better things to do with my time.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Like it or not, the days of the "Handshake/Name" are over. Savvy people are wanting something that will stand up in a court of law, if necessary.

 

[Chris Kennard]

Chris, I'm not sure where I said anything about Al's reputation in particular. All I said was that the paperwork showed all the pertinent information and had Al's business name on it, and I believe his name as well. To me, that shows someone that is more than willing to stand behind his animals.

I'm not saying that Al is beyond reproach. I think Al is a good guy, have known him personally for years, but yeah, I've seen good guys go bad. I don't see any evidence of that happening here or any reason for concern at all.

On your thoughts on my future customers, if someone expects paperwork better than what Al provided from me, they may need to look somewhere else. I've never had a complaint about my customer service, in fact I've had many compliments. I will go above and beyond for a customer that has a legitimate concern, but I'm not going to play games with an irrational person. I've got better things to do with my time.

That was not "all you said". You made the clear statement "The reputation of the breeder behind the paperwork is the only thing backing that paperwork up". Why would anyone assume you were speaking of anyone else but Al? If you read my post, I disagreed with your generalized statement and did not implicate Al. I'm glad you've had many compliments. Keep up the good work! Perhaps next time you decide to call someone a whiner and a pain in the rear for complaining about something that is important to them, maybe you could put yourself in their place. He has a legitimate gripe. I wouldn't be at all suprised if it gets resolved.

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

Most people in the industry don't keep lineage records back past a generation or two, unless it was a long term project started by themselves. Or, like myself, just have a natural curiosity and a need to know. The info Al provided is more then most will give. And often times, you'll only be able to track back on one parent.

What Chris (CCS) said was perfectly valid. The sellers reputation is exactly what backs up the paperwork. Anyone can SAY their animal is such and such, and they do on a daily basis. So it's in the buyers best interest to pay more attention to the sellers reputation.

 

[hhmoore]

The reputation of the breeder behind the paperwork is the only thing backing that paperwork up

I believe that Chris (JCCS) was simply reiterating a common point - that paperwork is only as good as the person backing it. I can recall a case in which a new seller was making paperwork for snakes that "a buddy" picked up for him at a show. He didn't know who produced them, didn't even buy them himself - but he was going to make paperwork. How much good would that paperwork be to anybody?
Then, there was another seller that produced his own paperwork with the name and picture of the breeder on it - the genetics information on that paperwork was incorrect; heck, the breeder's business name was even spelled wrong. Is that guarantee worth any more than the paper on which it is printed?

Realistically, how many boa breeders provide paperwork for albino hets? For visual codom traits?

I can understand Rich wanting the documentation he was promised....though, to have posted this thread before 0800 this morning - after Al Brown told him he was on vacation, was coming back today, and would get him the information once he (Al) was home and could access his computer - seems premature and impatient.

 

[shane159]

I would like to also add that Al has been out of town. I am sure that he will make this right and never had any intention on screwing anyone over. I am going to read the whole thread now, but I think the OP should not have a concern. I am positive that the animals sold to you were as described. Al is not a bad guy. Hope this gets resolved.

 

[Bobby Douglass]

here are the following emails and it ended there.I'm sorry to dog a well know person,but with Als years of experience he knows what lineage papers are! If not,wrong business to be in.
From me of course--And its starts at the bottom of this,sorry.This was my last statement to Al.
I dont need any pics.
Its just a shame that you told me 1 thing and now doing something else man.I see why you say us people from up this way are hard to please.I guess being lied to does that to people Al.
You straight up told me that you were sending me photo id and lineage papers.i'm not sure why you changed your mind about the lineage papers.
I dont like sales pitches or people who lie to me.Its too bad you do business the way you did to me man. I would have been a very good buyer.
Very unhappy costumer.Boa is great and healthy though.


Subject: Re: jungle het lipstick male
To: [email protected]
From: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 22:11:38 +0000

I can send you pix of the albino jungle fathers parents.. To see the females parents you will have to go to peter kahls site... Litter 19 in the boa birthing record for 2006 as it says on the photo id... I won't be able to get you the pics of the albino jungles parents until Monday when I get home from vacation... Thanks,
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From: not foryou <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 17:18:01 -0400
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: jungle het lipstick male

Hi Al
What happened to all his lineage papers you promised me.
All you sent was a photo id and i dont really need that part of our deal.I was and stated to you that 1 reason i was buying from you,you were sending me all his lineage back to grand parents or great grand parents.I was counting on these papers.
That is why i didnt want to spend another $500.Not being rude,honestly.
Your email is below stating what i am asking now.
Thanks Al
Rich
Subject: Re: jungle het lipstick male
To: [email protected]
From: [email protected]
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 16:31:13 +0000

T

He told you who the grandparents were. I think if you'd been a little more patient he would have made new paperwork when he returned from vacation with that info on it. He may still do so if you just ask him without an attitude.