Albinos, morphs, mutts, and mutants,...

[thesnakeman]

And the same rule should apply to the creation of such abominations in the captive indigo population. Or at least further scientific survey of biologists, and other folks with a greater understanding of the gravity of that situation. Personally I'm not sure how I would feel about breeding an animal which displayed any sort of genetic mutation, even if that mutation does occur in the wild from time to time.

And again, Indigos forever. We all sign an agreement.
T.

 

[nevermore_66]

I personally never understood the appeal to even seek out albino animals. They just look sickly to me - like all their vitality was sucked out with a straw. I'm pro pigments

 

[VICtort]

regarding "morphs"

Regarding "morphs" of D. couperi, it should be discouraged. Although some morphs are handsome and commercially viable, the very idea of selecting for traits that are not successful in the wild is objected to by those who might seek stock for repatriation... The hybrid/morph/albino craze so common in herpetoculture is a major reason that serious researchers and biologists working to enhance wildlife populations often discount, disregard and have disdain for the private sector. Certainly people have a right to "develop" livestock, but don't confuse domestic strains with wild strains...and we really might need our captive gene pools in the future. Consider some of the contributions of aviculturalists i.e. thick billed parrots, Socorro doves, etc. Habitat is where it's at, and unless this is secured long term, our efforts to raise healthy captives are of limited value, but wouldn't it be nice to have an "Ark" of suitable animals just in case? Maybe those who need it could make some $ too, think what it cost to "save" the condor and the black footed ferret. Just say "No" to genetic "morphs" in Drys, there are plenty of other truly creative/diverse/bizarre phenotypes in other species that those so inclined can work with...

 

[Ecarinata]

What are your feelings about breeding for red faced hatchlings?

 

[VICtort]

about breeding for "red throats"...encarinata inquiry

Good philosophical question. I like them, own them and find them attractive. Do these red throats represent specimens/populations that exist/did exist in the wild? I am told the redthroat phenotype is from S. Fla., naturally occurring, anecdotal to me. If this is a fact, I see nothing wrong and in fact think we should maintain them. If however they are simply an artifact of selective (in)breeding in captivity, we should be cautious and not go down the road of animals unsuited/atypical of wild populations. Or we can just declare these animals "domestic" livestock and do whatever people want, and not delude ourselves into thinking we are maintaining a gene pool representitive of wild populations/suited for reintroduction if/when habitat is secured. I prefer the former. What say the brethren'? Vic in Nor-Cal

 

[Chris Kennard]

I wonder how much "secured habitat" would be needed to maintain a healthy lack of inbreeding in the wild, or if it is as unhealthy as we think. Personally, I never thought of red throats as a morph.

 

[herbivorous]

Part of the trouble is that I don't think anyone really knows how much inbreeding goes on in the wild and just how genetically varied our wild populations are, which makes it difficult to say how much land would be needed to sustain a population longterm (bigger is better, though). I'm very much in favor of genetic diversity in captive populations (even my feeder mouse colony), but the thing is that I haven't ever seen any sort of quantitative study of how detrimental inbreeding is or at what point it really becomes a problem. I'm sure it must happen in the wild with some frequency, especially in places where they aren't that common.

 

[herbivorous]

Ah, but surely you must appreciate a nice albino retic. I could care less for most other albinos, but the retics are quite cool, in my opinion.

 

[epidemic]

Here goes, again..

To morph or not to morph?
Being an academic herpetologist, I appreciate nothing better than a good "textbook" specimen and look upon color morphs genetic miscreants, harboring genes which cause a host of metabolic and auto-immune deficiencies, not to mention, vision anomalies and hip dysphasia! ;0)
Being a herpetoculturist, focusing on Drymarchon spp., I see the potential attraction an amelanistic or pie-bald specimen could harbor, as both a form of eye-candy and major $$$ maker. Hey, who doesn't want to be the first guy on the block with something no one else has, whether it be cars, stainless steel grills or designer phase D. couperi? Heck, even I have to admit, if there is an amelanistic D. couperi lurking about, I wanna see it!
My problem is not so much with folks who produce color morphs, or the color morphs themselves, but with the dishonesty, cheating and theft associated with the color morph market. I simply do not wish to see the Drymarchon community go the way of the ball python community. It would be a crime to see such a magnificent and rare species manipulated and produced at any cost and with every available female, all for the sake of a phenotypic color morph, heterozygous or “new” designer phase Indigo….

Jeff

 

[epidemic]

Couple of points...

As for breeding Indigos for red-faced specimens, I too prefer the contrast red against an indigo face, but I find all specimens to be attractive and unique, never seen an "undesirable" Indigo.
Having found wild D. couperi in So. Florida, Central Florida and Southeastern Georgia, I can say the D. couperi I have found in Homestead, FL have harbored the most and brightest red coloration I have encountered, while specimens I have found further North appear to have less red coloration.
While I have only seen two wild D. couperi in Southeastern Georgia, neither specimen appeared to harbor red facial coloration, though I am aware some of the Georgia Department of Natural Resources Biologists have found specimens with a great deal of red facial coloring. I have also seen red-faced indigos produced from the pairing of black parents and vice versa.
While setting side large parcels of acreage for D. couperi seems like a great idea, the idea is not without flaws. First, such a parcel would have to encompass both macro and micro habit conducive to the survival of a wild Indigo population. Finding the reasons for the extirpation of D. couperi from seemingly sound habitat has proven to be difficult. Southern Mississippi is a prime example, with so much undisturbed, un-fragmented and seemingly suitable habitat; one has to start looking at the micro-habitat for answers. Answers which must first be answered and addressed before any repatriation project could hope to work.
Unfortunately, I see Florida losing the battle to save one of its crown jewels, the Eastern Indigo, as even the largest parcels of seemingly undisturbed habitat have been fragmented by roadways. This, combined with Florida’s continued growth, willingness to distribute incidental take permits and state’s habit of accepting reports and findings of biologists hired by large developers over the reports and findings of their own state biologists as nothing short of an eventual death sentence for wild D. couperi inhabiting the state…

Best regards,

Jeff

 

[thesnakeman]

I do not believe that any of my Indigos will ever be willingly released into the wild. Not even if the powers that be were begging me to do so. And if they ever asked, I'd reply by quoting Charlton Heston in saying,..."FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS"! I would, therefore, never delude myself into thinking that the captive gene pool would somehow save the day. And I agree whole heartedly with Jeff. We have to know why they disappeared to begin with. But we do need to protect what is ours. The best way I can see to do that, is a breeders association, the funds it generates, and a studbook/genetic database.
I really think that we need to take a good hard look at the possibility, that global warming is having a negative effect on wild populations. I think there is probably a firm link between wild couperi population, and frog population.The frogs are disappearing, so the indigos can't get enough to eat. Global warming could be having a negative effect on couperi in ways like incubation temps being too high. And I think if global warming is not a problem for indigos now, and if current rates continue,...at some point, it will be a serious problem for indigos in the future. At some point, the only indigos we may have left, are the ones we have in captivity. All the more reason to get it together, and do whatever it takes to maintain a healthy, captive genepool now!
T.

 

[Eric East]

Tony,

Why would you not allow any of your indigo's to be released?
I understand that under the current set of circumstances, repatriation is a bad idea, but what if the answers we seek regarding indigo decline are forthcoming? I would think you would be jumping at the chance to be involved.

I do not buy into the whole global warming issue. I believe there may be a slight warming trend, but there have been warming & cooling trends throughout history. It's is my belief that the whole GW issue is nothing more than a bunch of liberal fear mongering.

Eric

 

[thesnakeman]

I wouldn't release them for a number of reasons.
1.I love them, and would not subject them to certain doom.
2.Previous release attempts have not been proved successfull.
3.We have not yet fixed all the reasons why they are disappearing in the wild;
a.Habitat loss, and fragmentation.
b.roads/traffic[wich is only getting worse]
c.fire ants.
d. ferrel hogs.
e.dogs
f.cats
g.guinea fowl
h.idiots with shovels, rakes, and other implements of distruction.
i.climate change, weather you believe it or not. Mainstream science does.
j.basically just mankind, and all the pestilence he generates around him.
k.frog/amphibian decline[food source for indigos]
l.fertilizer/pesticide, and other chemical contamination.
It is my humble opinion that until all these issues have been addressed, and corrected, it would not be a good idea. And so far, we have done very little that I'm aware of. We have not yet even sufficiently answered the question of what happened to wild populations which have been extrapated, let alone fixed the problems. The things I have mentioned here are only the obvious ones, and I may have missed some. We simply have not done the research to know everything we need to know about indigos, their needs, and their environment to even begin to fix the problems at hand. And until we do that, my indigos will remain in my care! Before we europeans came along, drymarchon couperi had no reall enemies, or serious predation. It had none of these problems to worry about. Now it has all of them.
T.