Alex Hue and TNS reptiles

[evansnakes]

Mike, 1 question, please answer it. Alex gave you 700 balls as was your deal. He gave you an extra 100 and then shipped you an extra 75. You agree to those facts. So just a straight simple answer now please, how many have died? Because if you still have most of the 700 that you were due how much money have you lost? If you had 400 babies that live and do well and sold them cheap, like $10 each (which is cheap once they are established), more likely $15 range. That would be $4000-6000. That more than covers you on the axanthic. So lets talk some real math here now please. Out of 875 ball pythons are you saying you lost more than 475? Because you are saying that you have lost a ton of money on this deal and I frankly do not see that.

I was offered 1.1 axanthic males and het axanthic females in the fall of last year at $3000 pair and turned them down. They don't sell. That is the main reason that everyone is breeding them out to other mutations to try to create a more desirable more saleable product. That is why you had to approach Alex about making a deal. He did not come to you. So I am really having a tough time believing that you could not have less than half of those snakes survive and still cover yourself. If you can't get less than half of 875 baby ball pythons to survive, I am not trying to be a jerk, but you should start thinking about not dealing in snakes at this level again.

I really do not think you are a bad guy. You have put your foot in your mouth a bunch of times on here and I really think you need to just admit what you have said and done is wrong and get past it.

 

[Laura Fopiano]

Okay my thought process through this whole ordeal has been WHY!! WHY, WHY and WHY would anyone trade an Axanthic from a well known breeder (Jolliff, VPI, or who ever he claims it's from) for 800 plus baby ball pythons??

That = 800+ rat pup's @ 40 cents each, an hourly rate that should always be paid to yourself for the time it takes for the cleaning and maintenance on the animals, advertizing cost, time to answer emails, phone calls, and shipping.

Personaly, I would breed the Axanthic to an Albino and even if they did'nt produce snow's on the first try there would still be double het's!!

Time equals money!! And it's just good business to work smart and not hard!!

 

[Hues1]

Okay my thought process through this whole ordeal has been WHY!! WHY, WHY and WHY would anyone trade an Axanthic from a well known breeder (Jolliff, VPI, or who ever he claims it's from) for 800 plus baby ball pythons??

Easy...he has already bred this male to several females either Homozygous or Het., he now has babies he can sell to make his money back on the Axanthic male I am stuck with.

He has already been advertising offspring from this male for sale.

875 baby ball pythons at retail (during the height of the season) can bring upwards of $16,000.00 - $18000.00

Adult Axanthic male = $3000.00 - $5000.00 ( high retail )

NO brainer - he was out for the payoff.

But I'm a idiot for trusting him and thinking he was a good enough guy and in trying to be more generous and fair......I gave him 800 babies right off the bat instead of the agreed upon 700 in order to accomodate his constant whining about how I wasnt given him enough babies for his Axanthic that he claims would've brought $7500-$10000 which he never could sell.

Let me see......Mike gets 800 babies worth $16,000-$18,000 then on top of that he has offspring from the Axnathic male which he can probably sell for $3000.00-$3500.00 each if they are Homozygous and $1000.00 - $1500.00 if they are hets.

Oh but wait.....he says they started dieing off within hrs. of me leaving his home......without proof of how many actually died.....I once again trusted him and sent him 75 more babies for a grand total of 875.

Whoa.........Mike lost out big on this deal......why didnt I see that before ????? what was I thinking ???

I remember now........HE WAS KILLING THEM OFF and started to see all of that money he was going to make go out the window......so what does he do ?????

He tries to cheat me out of either more babies or cold hard cash.

But wait it gets better...........MIKE GOT THE SHORT END OF THIS DEAL !

Can anyone tell that I was being sarcastic ?

Just so everyone knows.......I didnt need this male nor had the desire to own an Axanthic, I'm plenty happy with the collection of pastels, ghosts, and het. for albinos that I currently already have. But I did have someone interested in a Axanthic and thats why I traded for it.

 

[bpc]

Evan, I totally agree. Mike would be able to lose half or more of those babies and still easily come out even. Yeah he'll have a bunch of time in, but not $5000 worth. There's no way anyone is paying 10K for a Axanthic. 3K maybe and probably only for breeding it out to make snows anyway. Frankly, I can't believe Alex gave him that many babies for that snake to start with.

 

[HerpVenue]

anyone ever wonder what happened to the vet report that was supposed to be posted yesterday?

because instead of a vet report....we get an apology. WHY?

someone couldn't get a vet report? Why?

Did they ever go to a vet?

inquiring minds want to know

 

[David Reid]

Laura

An albino bred to an axanthic produces ONLY double hets for both traits. You then must breed the double het offspring to eachother and then you MAY produce snows. Albino x Axanthic= double het for snows.

Dave

 

[Hues1]

you tell a guy he's lieing and proved it, he's tells you that he's not and can OFFER PROOF.

I WANT TO SEE THE PROOF.

1. Vet report/Receipt ( dont leave out a Name and Number for the VET, detailed list of Meds,procedures performed and amount of animals treated ) this is what EVERYONE is awaiting

2. I want to see pictures of AT LEAST 200 DEAD BABIES ( the amount you keep claiming to have died above and beyond) The pictures must be labeled in numeric order and shot from at least 2 different angles. ( you say I never asked for these, WELL NOW I AM )

3. Picture ID's for both Christina and Donna ( you offered them )

4. Picture of your "reptile room" and enclosures being used for these babies (someone else asked for these also)

5. I want to see ads here at Fauna or Kingsnake stating that you will be GIVING away babies ( you stated you would ) I believe Alan has offered to take them ( but I already know you wont follow through as YOU STATED )

6. Name, number, addresses, or paystub and contact info for BOTH of the places you work at ( you originally claimed to work with reptiles AS YOUR BUSINESS )

7. You brought it up....I want names and numbers of ALL the peopleYOU REFERED TO in this thread...you can e-mail privately with it or you can have those people come here and POST on your behalf.

8. SEE ALL OF ABOVE / and if anyone else wishes to see Mikes's PROOF for anything. please post your request

I have not lied once here in the entire situation

Here's your chance to prove it.

 

[HerpVenue]

I am still waiting for that vet report.

or are we gonna get another apology in its place

 

[evansnakes]

Laura, as Dave explained you can't produce a snow from an albino to an axanthic breeding. No matter how well the female double het for snows eat that were produced from such a breeding, you are still looking at 3 seasons minimum from breeding to produce double hets to breeding to produce snows as it always takes at least two years to get a female up to size (longer in many cases). So it takes at least 3 years for a payoff. You can sell 800 baby ball pythons to pet stores and at shows and on the net for $10-25 each over the next few months and have an enormous profit. If you spent $0.40 each feeding and fed 1-2 a week and let's add in value for your time to care for them as well. So let's say that it costs you $1 a week to care for a baby ball. So you pay $5 (in trade) for a baby, care for it for two months. You now have $13 into that ball. In two months when the market is thinned and the animals are established as healthy eaters you would sell them for $25+. So you just doubled your money.

Mike, I was being neutral in my previous post and was being very clear. Please tell me how many balls have died and how you would lose money if only 100-200 died.

 

[Laura Fopiano]

Gentle men, you are correct!! The idea of all of those little snakes and their care, just made my head spin around.
I would also like to see that vet report!

 

[Stardust]

Yes, I would like to see some report or something too. When I was considering buying some of those babies he had no problem with me going there to pick them up. That doesn't sound to me like someone trying to hide a bunch of sick babies. I would have seen his stock.
Unless you have some MAJOR report that implicates him directly, and THEN he doesn't make good on it, then I would call him a bad guy, but until then, I would buy from him in a heartbeat.
Yes, we live in the same state, no I do not know him personally nor have I met him.

 

[robyn@Pro Exotics]

i want to play!!

this whole thing is just about retarded. and it boils down to a couple of simple things that fall in Mike's lap.

#1- i don't know anything about Mike or Alex

#2- there are a lot of hustlers out there selling crappy farmed ball python babies near death for a few bucks. once again, i know nothing about Alex, so i don't know where his quality falls on the scale, but as the purchaser (Mike) it is your responsibility to make sure you a dealing with a reputable dealer that is offering strong healthy animals.

#3- as the guy wanting to flip a buck and make bank on farmed baby balls, it is your (Mike's) responsiblity to know the game, and the risks. you can't go in dumb, completely screw it up, and blame anyone but yourself. ESPECIALLY if you actually see the animals first and accept them. you HAVE to know the risks, the importance of getting high quality babies, and HOW TO PROPERLY CARE FOR THEM, in order to buck the odds of high losses.

#4- farmed baby balls are NOT simple. they are dehydrated, stressed, anorexic, and take a specific care and strategy approach to do well with.

#5- any dimwit can do reasonably well with 5 farmed baby balls. it is a whole different ballgame with 1000 (or even 100).

#6- Mike shows his ignorance by claiming that 10 to a cage is "acceptable". it is not. 10 to a cage is just a nice slow pace to the very death he is seeing.

#7- you need to house the balls individually, with water bowls, hidespots, and proper temps of low to mid 80 ambients, and a low 90 hot spot. they are not disposable animals, and the same effort needs to be made for their setup and care as your Super Spider Ghost baby ball that gets the cadillac treatment. they need to be fed individually as well. they are too shy to feed well with 9 other snakes crowding their "cage".

if you can't house 1000 baby balls, then don't even think about "dabbling" in 1000 baby balls. and it really seems like you just wanted to dabble. at Pro Exotics, we have done farmed balls for many years, always around 1000 animals, and i long ago learned that in order to do well you need to have a shoebox (small cage, another important "secret") for each animal, and a mouse breeder that can supply at least 750 live hopper mice a week to get the feeding going (and then some eat FK, and some eat thawed, and some eat rats...), and you have to know and expect that come this time next season, you will STILL be working with a handful of stubborn animals that refuse to feed, refuse to thrive, and remain unsellable (well, some folks would sell them : )

#8- to treat and address dehydration, you can soak them in water, that is fine. any other concoction is asking for trouble. soaking in chicken broth, flagyl, panacur, or panda poo is absolutely retarded, and that is either a really bad lie, or you have a really bad vet, and neither excuse is Alex's fault, and only serves to point out your ignorance (lack of knowledge) to the situation and experience to deal with a reptile purchase WAY over your head.

#9- farm hatched balls typically do very well after being hydrated, setup properly, and offered a hide spot and an appetizing meal. out of thousands and thousands of farm hatched babies, we had to plagyl/panacur perhaps a dozen. it was VERY unusual, and they are NOT AT ALL doomed to death without medications to treat the "Afrikan poison water" they have ingested. that is just goofy.

#10- get a new vet. or make up a new vet. this one sucks butt.

#11- we stopped doing big numbers of farm hatched balls in 2003 precisely because of these types of problems, we will sell about 30 babies this year to customers that insist on buying only from PE (that is 930 fewer cages to setup : ) . everyone and their dog thinks they can make a gajillion dollars hustling ball python babies, and the market is wrecked and overwhelmed with bad people and bad animals. i just don't have the heart to deal with it anymore, and this monster thread really brings up the bad memories of all the "disposable ball babies" that will know start showing up on classifieds and trade show tables through the rest of the year.

this stuff is the perfect PETA and HSUS ammunition, congrats on contributing to the negative reptile image. you need to suck it up, quit placing blame anywhere but on your own shoulders, and redirect your energy into individual housing and CARING for 700 (or however many remain) baby balls that are absolutely, 100% your responsibility now, all of which are desperately relying on your efforts to keep them alive, while you waste breath and energy typing out twist after twist. be responsible, and compassionate, and get your butt to work, there are hundreds of animals waiting for you!

robyn markland
galactic overlord
pro exotics

 

[WebSlave]

*** Standing ovation for Robyn! ***

 

[Hues1]

ILL LET YOU KNOW WHAT THE DEAL IS WITH THE VET TOMORROW HE'LL BE OPEN THEN IL GIVE YOU SOME ANSWERS.

Tick Tock Tick Tock.....going on day 4, where are those results ?

IVE TOLD YOU THAT I WOULD GIVE YOU SOME ANSWERS TOMORROW

Still tick tocking away........

WHY WOULD I CONTINUE TO BOTHER WITH ANY OF YOU WHEN IM NOT GIVEN A CHANCE TO PRODUCE ANYTHING AT ALL

Here's your chance.........

You'll get your vet bill

Did I already say that we're still waiting ?

come up with all the originals you want, when i get this bill scanned then you can say whatever you want ok

still waiting for you to come up with it..........

I have nothing to hide from anyone on here and anyone who asks me will get the truth

Go ahead Mike....here's your chance to speak the truth.....where are those Vet receipts and bills ???

gave me a cocktail meant he gave them a cocktail which i thought it was OK? and it was given to me in the sense that it was given to my animals and i paid for it

If you paid for it......where's the receipt ???

HAHAHAHHAHAHHA ALEX IM SHUTTING EVERYTHING YOU SAY DOWN AND IM GOING TO CONTINUE TO

Shut what I'm saying down for good.......show me those receipts.

SEE HOW ALEX MAKES THINGS UP AND I PROVE HIM WRONG

PROVE ME WRONG PLEASE.

"25 milligrams per killogram"

Now what the were soaked in was a mixture of spring water and 1/30 th drop of chicked broth for a few seconds each

SHOW ME THE BILL OR RECEIPT THAT SAYS THOSE 2 THINGS !

WebSlave.....just in case you're reading this or if anybody else thinks I'm being overly harsh and using unnecessary roughness......

I'm not trying to flog a dead horse, he made some really bad allegations against me and I want some answers.

Otherwise........

Mike either admit that you screwed up and tried to blame me for it or produce those receipts and bills that state those babies died because of something they had PRIOR to you accepting them. Any good vet can and will produce a timeline of events after doing an necropsy.

Mike,
There have been over 2990 views on this thread you started.....your reputation and future in this business now lies on your shoulders and hands.

 

[HerpVenue]

That is probably the best thing I ever read.

specially this part

#10- get a new vet. or make up a new vet. this one sucks butt.

I knew I liked the guy.

 

[Hues1]

I should've probably waited til Robyn posted before posting.......

Robyn, you nailed it .

I'm done trying to flog dead horses and as far as I'm concerned....I'm done with this thread.

Good luck Mike.....to your great start in the Herping world.

 

[evansnakes]

Robyn had some caffein today! Well said. I too got rid of my imaginary vet when he prescribed chicken broth for mouth rot.

 

[Rob BryertonRKK]

Thank You Robyn, That was GREAT.
I believe that we will never, ever see a receipt. Either there wasn't one or it fell in to a bowl of tomato soup that an iguana was soaking in to get his vitamins. Rob

 

[herpcondo]

I GOT IT,,,

Maybe the Vet bill was soaked in the flagyl/panacur/spring water/1/30th of a drop chicken broth cocktail,,,
that is why he can't post it,,,,, (has to be)

you know what is really funny,, if he was gonna lie about the chicken broth and spring water,,, how in the hell did he come up with 1/30th of a drop of chicken broth,,,,? and how do you take a drop of chicken broth and divide it 30 times..? and how does " a few seconds" rehydrate anything..? where did the
_______________________________________________

"25 milligrams per killogram"
________________________________________________
come into play..?

He must have consulted with a New Orleans witch doctor vet,,
I guess the worst thing is the poor guy is not even a good liar,,,

Mike why don't you just tell the truth,,,, ( do you really think anyone cares now..?)

 

[Darin Chappell]

Well, Mike,

Here is exactly what you wrote on the very first page of that thread that was temporarily lost:

"3-My personal vet gave me a cocktail of different things to soak them in to make sure they drank it. Thats what you do with 100's of ball pythons that are CH. Flagyl, panacur etc ....i believe but ill get you more on that. "

You say now that your vet actually did it for you, and that's what you meant by "My personal vet gave me a cocktail of different things to soak them in . . ." Really? You expect anyone to believe that at all? That's like a kid saying "My mom gave me a sandwich of different things to eat," then coming back and telling us that this common-sensical sentence REALLY meant, "My mom ate a sandwich." That's just stupid! I'm personally offended that you think I (and the rest here) would be dumb enough to think you're NOT a liar!

Everything else is just a bunch of back and forth on this. It all boils down to this: you got some animals wholesale, you checked them out before the deal was done, you accepted them as they were, YOU killed some (we never have been given an actual number!) by improperly medicating them YOURSELF, and now you want to blame Alex for what YOU did. TOUGH...TOO BAD...NEXT!!!!!


By the way . . .Joe,

It's probably a GOOD thing that Mike is such a bad liar . . .that way he's easy to catch!