Allen Belcher / Big Daddy's Wholesale ... WARNING

[shrap]

So some of the people posting on this thread advised Bryon how to proceed prior to this thread being posted? This could help explain why anyone posting a differing opinion seems to be getting attacked so vigorously.

If your are implying that I am one of those people, sorry but you are barking up the wrong tree. I have never had a private conversation with Bryon in my life. Not via phone, email, PM, IM, etc. In fact, I am not even sure if we have ever exchanged pleasantries in a thread prior to this one.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Cheryl, very well said :

Tough questions.......
I'm pretty sure we all know the answers to them
and I'm equally sure I don't want to see Bryon have to answer them all at once

He's admitted he didn't do it "right" or as I put it~ it was "bad form"~
But he did do a good thing bringing this all into the light at the same time.

You don't need to see him skinned alive for "bad form" do you? I'm pretty sure you don't~ you've just got your back up from all the backbiting back and forth here.

Bryon did a good thing~ he went about it in a fashion some of us disaprove of. It's done~ it can't be undone.

I agree pretty much with all that you say, and thank you for having the backbone to say it. However, as for "it can't be undone". If that were true, there would be very little reason for any "bad guy" post to ever be followed up with a bunch of anything except "Yup, I agree" posts.

With regard to my motivations being allayed to being a "backbiting" response. You are welcome to your opinion. Many of those that know me better, and others in this Forum, believe it is a more principled motivation.

Allen has been roasted. Bryon is being taken to task for some of his actions. He could have acknowledged all in the first post. He probably thought they were either "OK", "did not matter", or "best not spoken of, etc". I have explained why they matter to me many times. They matter to others as well, in at lesat a few of us feel are appropriate here. Again, the "anti both parties crowd, or more anti-Bryon", which is the 20% minority here, is being blamed by the "anti-Allen, pro-Bryon" crowd, with 80% of the posts, for posting here. Its amazing .. 3-4 posts by pro-Bryon folks, where I or others are disagreed with, questioned, or criticised. Then one by me or someone else, and we're being told "enough already"! It should be us objecting !

This thread is long. It is by no means close to a record though. It has also been pretty civil in dealing with serious issue, and I thank those that have kept the disagreement respectful. On the flip side, whenever I see the sarcasm being ratcheted up by those who take a disagreeing view with me or those that are critical of Bryon, I feel that we must have made a very good point somewhere.

Like I said, no "rubber stamp" from me. My posts are not in disagreement to try to get some other poster to change his or her mind, although it does happen. They are here to provide an opposing view for the reader, for the historical record, if I feel I wanted to post one.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Sammy, I first raised the issue of a "Board of Directors", and it may more accurately be a "counsel of advisors", and represents no more than friends who had prior knowledge and offered advice to Bryon to come here with his issues. You are not one of those I referred to, and I believe you completely. Unfortunately, it is not for me to list those who have told me of this association, although a few have said as much earlier in the thread.

 

[shrap]

Sammy, I first raised the issue of a "Board of Directors", and it may more accurately be a "counsel of advisors", and represents no more than friends who had prior knowledge and offered advice to Bryon to come here with his issues. You are not one of those I referred to, and I believe you completely. Unfortunately, it is not for me to list those who have told me of this association, although a few have said as much earlier in the thread.

Hey Jim,

I know you were not referring to me, I do appreciate you saying so though.

I just wanted to make sure that general speculation did not include me on the "Board of Directors". Just felt that needed to be made perfectly clear.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Jim, I have a few questions and I ask them in all sincerity to better understand your viewpoint. Let me state first that I do believe it is important to have someone in the role of “devils advocate”, in most cases it is a necessity here with reputations on the line.

If we have established that Allen has some husbandry issues that need to be addressed, is it important why it was reported? The only reason for it to be relevant is to also cast the accuser in the spotlight as well. In most cases here I would say that is acceptable because we are usually dealing with thefts and the like that warrant scrutiny of that kind. This is a bad husbandry post and as you have stated, Allen has acknowledge, things could be better.

I believe there is enough information here for people to draw their own conclusions on that issue. The point I would make, we can debate the finer points of the responsibility of an employee and an employer when it comes to the operations of a business and the face it presents to the public but is it important? The evidence presented here is not appealing to the majority. That is Allen’s challenge to overcome.

Byron may have done things that call into question his character, (I’m not sure if you are holding cards we can’t see here) but if there is reason to believe he cultured the mold and placed it into the tubs or the usual standards of Allen’s business have been grossly misrepresented, then I can see the reasoning behind the questions.

Jim, I agree that I personally would have chosen a more direct response to Allen to resolve my concerns before starting this thread. I can’t say that I agree with all of Byron’s actions that you have pointed out in this thread but the thread is here. Would it not be more relevant for Allen to address the husbandry concerns? Is it his normal practices to have animals sitting in tubs with mold? Are his quarantine practices really as described in this thread?

I think it is abundantly clear that you believe that the way Byron brought the issue to the BOI, shows some character issues. It is also clear (I Think), that you find Allen’s facility in need of intention. So, what then is someone to make of this thread when researching if they should wantpurchase from Allen?

If a person reading this thread agrees with you on all points brought forth, then Byron did not handle the situation correctly and Allen has husbandry issues. If they agree with the majority of posters here then they agree that the conditions of his facility need to be discussed. So what should we be our focus?

I know, sometimes we get wrapped up in our viewpoints of a situation and loss sight of some things
So let me share a post that may give you a general perspective from one viewing this thread.

But many "attacks" here and elsewhere lack the professionalism to help anybody or anything. Many people avoid commenting or posting here because too many threads disintegrate into gutter attacks, or become hijacked beyond the ability of many of us to follow. I think many out there share my annoyance with having become involved in a thread, only to then see it run well beyond its useful life, and fill my in-box with tit-for-tat posts that run for days and pages beyond their livelihood.
Jim Flaherty
The Chameleon Company, LLC

Jim, My Inbox is full.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

that you find Allen’s facility in need of intention.

*Intention = attention

 

[Chameleon Company]

Dennis, some pretty good questions, and some probably rhetorically stated:

As for some of the questions posed by others ..... Sorry! They didn't rise above the bar! Dennis, I will get the ones from you that rose above my bar. Then I have to get back to work. All quotes are from Dennis.

If we have established that Allen has some husbandry issues that need to be addressed, is it important why it was reported? The only reason for it to be relevant is to also cast the accuser in the spotlight as well.

It takes some reading Dennis, but I have stated that its not that the complaint came here, its the path taken. "Why?" is a huge question, and it is always important. Motive has been important to all matters of put forth for judgement and opinion since the dawn of time. The husbandry issues are valid. But with any scenario involving an accusor, it does not need be confined to a theft, etc, to make the credibility of the accusor an issue. Its not about "casting the accusor in the spotlight" but goes beyond that. Its about how much credibility we put in the evidence. It matters to me Dennis. Other things may matter to you. Its OK.

.....we can debate the finer points of the responsibility of an employee and an employer when it comes to the operations of a business and the face it presents to the public but is it important?

Ask this of others. I challenged those who felt Bryon had any obligation beyond what Allen instructed him to do. Its there.

Byron may have done things that call into question his character...

And to each-his-own in what importance they assign this. I have stated my opinions on how much relative weight has for me. Some cards are face-up now that were not in the first part of the thread, and a few of us are glad to see them, for they matter to us.

Would it not be more relevant for Allen to address the husbandry concerns? Is it his normal practices to have animals sitting in tubs with mold? Are his quarantine practices really as described in this thread?

Are not enough people asking those questions? 80-20 is not enough? You want 90-10? I have faulted no one for asking those questions. Its all relevent. "More relevent" is left to opinion. Allen was laid pretty wide open in the first few pages, BTW, and many more since. There is plenty of evidence here for people to form judgements. Have I criticised anyone for saying Allen's place is disgusting, moldy, etc? No need to answer that one.

........If they agree with the majority of posters here then they agree that the conditions of his facility need to be discussed. So what should we be our focus?

Sorry, but I do not see this as "majority rule focus" or "group focus". Focus wherever you want to. :scatter:

As for the last perspective offered, I will respond. If I felt my attacks were "gutter", I would not be where I am now. My criticisms of Bryon have been pointed out by several respected posters here as being anything but. Not in agreement? Yes! Gutter? No. 70-80% of this thread is the fill of others with whatever agenda that they have. Sorry Dennis. There are gutter attacks in this thread, and I thank Sammy, Ron, and others for helping to stifle them. They were from pro-Bryon folks, BTW, except for one individual who was rightfully suspended. There likely will be more.

Dennis, you owe me now. Take a look at post #202, and my 6 questions of Bryon. Assume that the Friday-nite Saturday-morning exchange took place, where Bryon already had his grand plan in the works (photos taken etc), worked his last moment and made others here aware of it, but not told his boss. Then emailed his boss that night for customer information and other things that he was going to use to harm Allen under the ruse that he was still an employee asking for help in the hobby. Allen sent it on Saturday, having no idea Bryon was ex-employee with knife poised. Bryon used that information to specifically target known associates of Allen in the next 24 hours, many of them otherwise satisfied customers.

Here's the questions: Assuming all the above is true, does this effect the standard of objectivity by which you will view Bryon's allegations? Put another way, vary the size of the "grain of salt"? How much? I know you would have chosen differently, and I not only would have assumed such for most of us, but you also stated such. Can you understand that it does matter to some of us, for reasons we hold dear? With Bryon as the star witness, who took the pictures, provided the testimony, etc., does it trouble you?

Thanks for the quality of your post Dennis. I mean it.

 

[Zoo Supply]

Jim,
I Know and respect you, your business and most every post on this website. I understood from the get go what your intention was, and I think that you pulled it off the first few posts.
I do think you veered a bit off course through this and ended up going a bit to one side. The great thing about the BOI is that it is your opinion, and for the most part you have backed it up. Other's have their opinion and I feel that they have backed their opinion up as well.
Jim, generally you take a very middle of the road approach with your posts, but I have to come to the conclusion that after 266 posts even the most level-headed of us will lose track of the original posts a bit.
TOM

 

[shrap]

Here's the questions: Assuming all the above is true, does this effect the standard of objectivity by which you will view Bryon's allegations?

Jim,

Right here is where I think our difference of opinion lies. Do any of these motive driven questions and allegations of yours make any of what Bryon is saying not true?

That is really what it boils down to. Is what Bryon has presented here truthful and factual, regardless of motive or how he acquired the evidence? Is it TRUE? I believe it is at this point. I have not been given any reason not to believe.

Now if some of the allegations made by you on how Bryon acquired the evidence is true then yes, Bryon made some mistakes and errors in judgment. But to me the mistakes on his part grossly pale in comparison to those of Allen's.

And at this point I do firmly believe that Bryon's mistakes were made thinking he was doing the right thing in warning folks about what was going on with Allen. Where as I feel Allen's mistakes were purely greed driven. That is why I am standing on the side of the fence I am on.

 

[hers]

Then emailed his boss that night for customer information and other things that he was going to use to harm Allen under the ruse that he was still an employee asking for help in the hobby. Allen sent it on Saturday, having no idea Bryon was ex-employee with knife poised. Bryon used that information to specifically target known associates of Allen in the next 24 hours, many of them otherwise satisfied customers.

Jim, you have said this several times in different ways, but I believe Bryon answered you on this one. He stated that he used the weekend to come to his final conclusions on what to do about the situation. Yes, pics had been taken and everything was in order, but Bryon was still an employee at that time. I'm not saying that Bryon didn't get the information for his own purposes, just that the final decision had not been made (though I am sure he was leaning well into the decision he made)

 

[HerpLuver]

You know, i think my head is going to explode after reading all of the god forsaken mindless drivel in this thread.

Ok, we have all agreed so far that, Allen screwed up and had (i assume) dollars signs blocking his vision of priorities. Anyone that takes on 4 business's with only enough employees to partially run 1 of them is greedy, no if's and's or buts. In my opinion this places Allen on the top 10 list of "People who will cause Bad Press for our beloved industry"

Bryon has vehemently stated that after requesting, pleading, begging and CRYING over the issue, Allen WOULD NOT LISTEN TO HIM!! and WOULD NOT ALLOW HIM TO DO HIS JOB!!

Bryon saw that Allen was a greedy, inconsiderate person. One that cared less for the care of the animals, and more for the money they would bring him. He just needed to find a place to SHOVE THEM INTO while the money waited in the customers hands.

SO.... Bryon now saw, after requesting opinions of his friends, that he had to OUT Allen. He had to expose him for what he was, a Scumbag. Bryons mind probably said to himself "Whatever i have to do to let other's know of how this man treats these animals, these animals that people pay THOUSANDS OF HARD EARNED DOLLARS for, I WILL DO IT"

In the beginning Allen KNEW that Bryon would expose him, Bryon has stated this in the thread multiple times, for those of you unable to read english, Go back some pages and find it im not quoting i know i can read. Bryon TOLD Allen that he would not sit tight and watch someone mistreat animals and would OUT them. So allen was fully aware of Bryon's Potential as a business hazard should Allen be under par as a business owner and herp enthusiast.

Do i agree Bryon did the right thing, YES. Do i agree that Bryon went about it however he had to, to inform others of what they may be getting there hands into, YES (I would've done the same, for those of you that want to put me on a list of "Dont let him work for me")

Do i agree Allen needs ALOT of work and should just be a man and fess up and handle his priorites, and hire more people YES YES YES YES YES!

I want NO more bad guys in this industry, we have enough already.

ENOUGH OF THE GOD FORSAKEN BANTER AND SPACE FILLING NONSENSE PLEASE!!!!!!!!

We all know everyone's current place in there likes and dislikes of how this thread has come to be, so let's leave it at that.

Good day, i need a drink!

 

[Junkyard]

Mike and others,
Fox news is "fair and balanced". You especially Michael, asking me about being "one-sided". Are you neutral in this matter? Are your posts even? I am one of the few that have a view that both parties messed up ! Can't handle that? With regard to where many of you sit watching this whole parade, I don't have a problem saying "Hey, your King has no clothes!"

Am I Neutral?-Not at all, I believe Bryon, Allen has not given us anything relevant for me to change my mind.
Are my posts even?-Only towards Bryon
Can I handle your posts?-Of course I can, but can you handle mine being onesided?
King?-I have no king, though if he has no clothes, I am willing to give him some.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Hey Sammy,

Yes, that is where we disagree:

That is really what it boils down to. Is what Bryon has presented here truthful and factual, regardless of motive or how he acquired the evidence? Is it TRUE? I believe it is at this point. I have not been given any reason not to believe.

There are always degrees of truth. Mine and a few others here are influenced to differing degrees by differing factors, of course. I have wasted very little, if any, of my extensive time here telling people that they have no business believing Bryon verbatim. The above paragraph by Sammy explains one side in all its simplicity. Those that feel differently place a higher degree of significance on Bryon's choices than Sammy. Some folks can't handle that. Bryon had many days to assemble his evidence, make choices, etc. It took some of us a little bit of time to glean additional facts that we thought relevent.

It is also a hope of mine, touched on by others, that whether Bryon ever face a similar situation again, or any participant or reader here likewise, whether it be animal cruelty, ethics, or illegal activity, that we call on all our wisdom, and that of others, and proceed in a cautious, ethical, and legal manner. The stakes here faced by Bryon are childs-play compared to not only what is possible, but what many of us already have first-hand experience with.

 

[big daddy's wholesal]

After careful consideration and a lengthy conversation with my attorney, he has given me the o.k. to bring you more of the facts.
Bryon has talked to many of you in the past either in chat rooms on the phone or on this site. I have only spoken to one of you who took the time to call me to ask questions, all of which I answered. However most of you who say you know Bryon and what kind of guy he is would probably not know him if you ran in to him at Walmart tonight. I do not have the time to sit on this computer and write to you all every night. This means that you feel like you know him. Also the pictures that he posted do speak loud (that is if they were true examples of my business) Anyone can make a picture of a container look as good or as bad as they want to! You can look at the pictures and see how they could have been and were set up to make things appear worse that they were. As far as anyone that has seen me and my animals at shows, you can not say they look bad or have any signs of health problems! I'm not asking you to believe me because I said it, but take the time to call Dixie Reptile shows where I am a monthly vendor.
I would like to expand on the sewer job and the party jumpers. First I have several employees! Bryon helped me do ONE sewer job and set up ONE jumper and broke down TWO. This happened over the course of six weeks. This consumed less than one day ( eight hours ) of total work combined! Here is last weeks schedule for Bryon
Monday: He was here all day while I was gone to Valdosta GA. He was supposed to clean and water all the animals and then work on building more racks to house rats.
Tuesday: He was on the road all day making deliveries and I was in Atlanta
Wednesday: He was here most of the day except for going to the pet shop to stage and take pictures. He was supposed to be feeding all the animals and spot cleaning any that needed it.
Thursday: He was here all day, we only saw each other for just a few minutes on this day and he told me he was going to check on all the animals and then work on racks.
Friday: He had been at work for about an hour here and was working on racks, when I showed up to get him to go help install the ONE and only sewer line that we have done while he has been employed here! Around 3:00 we returned and finished running a water line inside the building for the automatic watering system for all the rodents.
After leaving that night I went through the wholesale house and did find some animals cages that I did clean. And I was going to address this with Bryon but at this point was not looking to fire him. Late that night Bryon sent me an e-mail kindly asking for some information on how to find out a new website. I in turn (not knowing I was being set up) gave him the info he requested. Just to discover that this to was just another way he wanted to try to hurt me.
Bryon has stated on more than one instance that he hopes and prays that this causes me to fail and that he hopes this puts me out of business. This is a very upset, confussed, and angry former employee. As I stated before the only big problem we had was over a sick snake brought to my facility. I even used the word (crap) in describing the animal to him personally. I guess he wanted to show me ( more like show all of you ) who had crap ( even if it had to be made to look that way anyway)
Now I have learned some hard lessons here. Always go behind someone and make sure that your animals are cared for like you want them to be. Secondly I am currently checking into having Auburn University(the leading colledge for vet schooling) assist me in preparing a list of care sheets and standards that each animal both in the wholesale and high end areas will be kept at. I am also seeking to be on a rotating schedule where the county inspector will come and do a walk through of the facility and give an o.k. or a suggestion of a change that needs to be made. I am open to take any other serious advice that any of you have, but keep it professional!
I would also like to address the regurge issue: When dealing with imports it is not uncommon to have animals that regurge. This usually lasts for several weeks until the proper medicines have time to run a course in the animals. This is why I have many different buildings. I will not allow the imports to be around my high end breeders.
I hope we all can learn something by this thread. There is always two sides to every story. Always check on your own animals yourself. Judge a book only that you have read, not what someones tells you it says.

Allen Belcher 706-615-4772

 

[shrap]

I am sorry Jim but truth is black and white to me. Either something IS TRUE or it IS NOT TRUE. It is that simple. Bryon's "choices", his "motives", in no way effects whether what he is saying is TRUE or not.

Now Bryon's "choices" and his "motives" may have some bearing on how some people feel about Bryon as a person but "choices" and "motive" does not change truth. There are not degrees of truth. Either something is TRUE or it is NOT TRUE. Degrees of right and wrong I can accept, but not degrees of truth. Water is wet, grass is green and ice is cold.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Thank you for the example Chris:

Amongst other things in your most recent post:

In the beginning Allen KNEW that Bryon would expose him, Bryon has stated this in the thread multiple times, for those of you unable to read english, ....

And Allen, in one of his two posts, says this (didn't take much reading of English, BTW)

......Bryon never spoke with me concerning any of these allegations instead he took me to the jerry springer show for the reptile world.....

Lest there be any confusion, I asked Allen specifically about this point in one of our two phone conversations. His words regarding Bryon discussing or hinting or giving clues of any sort of "outing" etc were "Never. Not one word".

I'm not saying either one is lying. I am not saying either one is telling the truth. This is a perfect example, though, of where the credibility, or varying degrees of lack thereof, will matter.

 

[The BoidSmith]

There seems to be a train of thought along the lines that “if anyone is on a payroll he/she should be loyal to the employer to the point of going against to his/hers own beliefs”. Had Bryon stayed for a few more weeks trying to improve the conditions of the animals (probably unsuccessfully knowing what we know at this point) he would have been thrown into the bonfire of the BOI. At this point he would be defending his position from statements such as:…“You knew what those animals were going through and you did nothing about it”…“You were on Allen’s payroll so why would you care”…“You were covering your bosses’ back just to keep your job”…“Why didn’t you quit and bring it earlier to our attention? Was it because you had a vested interest as you were being paid?”…, etc. etc. It’s very difficult to please everyone.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Sammy,
You would not make a good politician. That is a compliment. Spin is all about half-truths, etc., and it is everywhere. We now have a fuller statement by Allen. I do not care for half-truths either. The table is fully littered now. Between Bryon's allegations, and now the recent statement by Allen, the truth is in there somewhere. You will pick up something and say it is white. I may say "no, it is black". We will still agree on wet grass though. What a paradox!

 

[shrap]

Allen if this was the first time your name was brought here I could believe more of what you have to say. But you have what seems to be a repeating history here on the BOI. This is not a one time thing.

And the animals you take to shows have little bearing on how they are kept at your facility. Are you really going to take the sickly looking ones to a show?

Also, why would go ahead and sell Normals that you KNOW had NO chance at being possible hets as possible hets? You find that ethical, moral or just? I sure don't and believe that anyone who would do such a thing you need to be leery of in every aspect of dealing with them. That is flat out deception and fraud. Trust you? Believe you? Very hard to do.

None the less, thank you for coming here and your time.

 

[HerpLuver]

Amongst other things in your most recent post:



And Allen, in one of his two posts, says this (didn't take much reading of English, BTW)


Lest there be any confusion, I asked Allen specifically about this point in one of our two phone conversations. His words regarding Bryon discussing or hinting or giving clues of any sort of "outing" etc were "Never. Not one word".

I'm not saying either one is lying. I am not saying either one is telling the truth. This is a perfect example, though, of where the credibility, or varying degrees of lack thereof, will matter.

Right Jim, but then there's always that possibility that Allen has lied straight faced to you. Just take a look at track records, that can kinda tell you the persons integrity for the truth.

If you where a blind man Jim, and i told you that the sun is bright green, the grasss is grey and your hair was actually BLUE, then you would believe me if no one else told you different. You have alot of people here telling you different, it's your choice to decide otherwise. You have the voice's of many telling you Bryon is an upstanding man. Honest, Loyal and normally forgiving of other's shortcomings. You have other threads saying that Allen has had other instances where his husbandry techniques have been questioned.

Wolf in sheeps clothing???

Besides, there are always THREE sides to a story, His side, My side and the truth.