Allen Belcher / Big Daddy's Wholesale ... WARNING

[Chameleon Company]

Hey Mike. Actually having a pleasant laugh over this.

I have received two speeding tickets, and I have wrecked three cars. No criminal charges here.

Was I wrong in posting those articles? I do not think so.

I have more speeding tickets by a country mile, although none in 14 years, have wrecked less cars, and am glad we both are alive to compare scars ... no arrests here either. I thought it in poor taste to post the info on Allen, given whatever he was accused of in this thread. I also took some exception with another he/she/it who posted speculating at what other transgressions one could speculate on based on the the criminal conviction. It displays not only the ugly side of such mud, but also considering the situation of he/she/it, my feelings are that it would be equally unfair for someone to use he/she/it's criminal background to smear them every time someone wanted to paint he/she/it poorly, and as such the pot was calling the kettle black. That is also just my opinion, and like butt-ends, we all have them.

 

[BryonsBoas]

I've read the current posts and all I can say is wow. Since this thread was started I've been questioned by quite a few people , investigators , police . folks on this board but most recently I was asked about my personal life. Amazingly enough someone who has never talked to me outside of this thread has decided to spread around information about me in an e-mail to at least 1 person that I know of. So now I'm bi polar , on a soap box and leading a crusade to destroy a honest business man's life among other things. I'm pretty sure I know where the info came from but what really gets me is how the individual can say one thing in public but be OK with doing the opposite outside of the forum.

I really am way to busy to lead a crusade much less hop on a soap box . Last I checked I was far from being bi polar , more towards ADD , I get distracted by shiny things lol . If anyone really wants to know about my personal life , cowboy up and ask me , leave speculation at the door. I've been an open book to anyone who has taken the time to contact me and I'm not really sure why my personal life is even of a concern here.

I understand why Micheal made the post of the articles, combined with the negative thread about Allen it merely shows a character flaw.

Have fun picking it apart it Jim.

 

[Junkyard]

I do see your side of the arguement Jim.

 

[Laura Fopiano]

For the record, Allen is not the only poster in the thread with a felony conviction, and some of those calling the kettle black have convictions within the reptile industry.

You and I may be willing to overlook the felony convictions of others in the industry that directly involved the sale of reptiles, as there are many offenders, and it will vary.

I guess as the saying goes, "let he who is without fault cast the first stone". It is ironic that some who criticised Mr. Belcher's criminal activities with regard to the cattle have criminal records themselves. Knock yourselves out over this one. Adios.

Jim,
You seem to have information about the criminal records of some people who posted on this thread. By doing so you are casting doubts about the character of each and every poster on this thread. Sorry but I don't find that blanket statement flattering to say the least.

I read one person's critique that made me want to puke.

Well jim, guess you should get that puke bucket ready, because I have a bit to address before i make a permanent exit from this thread........although this thread has nothing to do with me in the least, except for my support of Bryon, all of the above statements do.

Before I address the statement above I would like to say that I did pick up the phone and speak with Allen. I found him to be very pollite and a gentlemen especially because he was fully aware that I was one of the members of this board that degraded him on a public forum.

Do i regret any of my statements in this thread, heavens no, and I stand by everything that I have said in this thread and on this forum. Fauna has been by home for almost 4 years and I have no intentions of leaving it, nor will I allow myself or another member I consider to be a friend to be insulted by innuendos of wrong doings.......

I am the pot calling the kettle black that jim is referring to. Yep that's right, I was arrested almost 3 years ago and charged with felony trafficking of wildlife and conspiracy......the charges were reduced to misdemeanors and I am still serving my probation now. Have I ever tried to keep this a secret? Absolutely not, I speak publically to groups and clubs about this experience in order to help others not make the same mistakes as I did and this topic has been covered in another thread somewhere here on fauna.

I was wrong in forwarding the email in this thread to Bryon to have it posted on a public forum, being the lady that I am, I apologized to this board for my actions, and will not be posting the email that I received from jim this morning. I will say it does validate that the above quoted were about me....

jim thank you for showing me the real you.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

When I first meet Laura at a show, she was the first to initiate the facts about her troubles and regrets. As far as I know, she has never tried to hide the information. The information has been common knowledge to many for a long time.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Give it a good look.

Laura about her conviction:

Have I ever tried to keep this a secret? Absolutely not, I speak publically to groups and clubs about this experience in order to help others not make the same mistakes as I did and this topic has been covered in another thread somewhere here on fauna.

Of course, as soon as Allen's situation was brought to this thread he addressed it. Laura has no clue how Allen has addressed it in his community, but we're glad you are so open about your situation Laura.

Laura about her only contact with Allen:

Before I address the statement above I would like to say that I did pick up the phone and speak with Allen. I found him to be very pollite and a gentlemen especially because he was fully aware that I was one of the members of this board that degraded him on a public forum.

Dennis about Laura:

When I first meet Laura at a show, she was the first to initiate the facts about her troubles and regrets. As far as I know, she has never tried to hide the information. The information has been common knowledge to many for a long time.

I also can confirm Laura's openness about her ordeal, as she was equally forthcoming to me about it months ago. And so that Laura can continue to be thankful in "seeing the real me", and I the "real Laura", let me let her know that if her criminal history were brought to a thread, and this conclusion were drawn (Laura's post #350 about Allen):

What I believe that articles show is a pattern of behavior consistant of theft, lawlessness and unethical behavior. I really wonder how many of his so called business dealings have not been discovered. Kinda make me go hmmmmm.

.......... that I would be all over them like white on rice too. Amazing, but of all the comments after Mike's "revelation" about Allen's transgression, you had the most biting condemnation Laura. Others, without convictions, were more balanced in their replies. Guess we'll just wait on the next character assassination as you stand by your friends! Have to hurl. Kinda makes me go hmmmmmmm.

 

[shrap]

Character assassination? Please Jim. This guy made some very poor choices and brought this on himself. There is more than one thread here at Fauna about him, not just this one so lets not act like this is an isolated case. He was not picked him out of the clear blue sky just to ruin his reputation. There is a pattern of behavior here.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Sammy,

Character assassination? Please Jim. This guy made some very poor choices and brought this on himself. There is more than one thread here at Fauna about him, not just this one so lets not act like this is an isolated case. He was not picked him out of the clear blue sky just to ruin his reputation. There is a pattern of behavior here.

I will have to conclude that you endorse the comments which I do not. LOL !! Why don't we do searches on all the historical threads, resurrect them, and link past criminal convictions to as many participants as possible? Better put, why don't YOU do it ? Granted, it has a place for some in the BOI. And then those with the criminal past can be the first to jump on the other criminal! I realize that hypocrisy is a difficult concept for a few Sammy. May I suggest dictionary.com, goenglish.com, etc. Your logic is too much of a stretch for me, but you are welcome to it!

 

[Griz]

I'll make my comment short and to the point.

Jim, you have moved from Devil's advocate to Devil's agent. You used to be right on the money but anymore I am forced to take your opinions and comments as nothing more than worthless chatter. I have never seen someone so off base as you especially given the numerous threads here. What a pity too.

Griz

 

[shrap]

What logic is that Jim, the fact that this person has a history of unfavorable threads on the BOI? That's not logic Jim, that is called documented history.

Not once in my post did I mention anything about criminal records. Can you EVER reply to someone without fabricating a bunch of crap that the person did not even say or elude to? I will go pick up a dictionary the day you get a grasp on reading comprehension.

Also, your propensity to try to belittle the people who don't agree with you to try and make yourself seem superior is really growing old. With every post along those lines you make Jim I lose more and more respect for you.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Sammy, you can connect your dots as you see fit.

For those not up-to-speed, this thread was started with several pages of pictures and complaints about filthy cage conditions at Allen's facility. It is the overwhelming part of the complaint, by an ex-employee. Valid knowledge for anyone contemplating doing business with Allen, although I took significant exception with the ethics of others involved. 350 posts later, we get a resurrection of the thread enlightening us as to Allen's 2003 guilty plea in a cattle rustling case (post 348). So Sammy, when you say this:

What logic is that Jim, the fact that this person has a history of unfavorable threads on the BOI? That's not logic Jim, that is called documented history.

We didn't get a criminal record in a 13 month old thread about underweight ball pythons, misrepresentations, a TOS issue, etc., where Allen was the bad guy (Feb 2005). We get it in one about dirty cages. Perhaps there are more recent "bad guy" threads, but that is the only one my search turned up. We get it in this monstrous joke of a thread.

I cited what I felt was "character assassination" in this thread, saying that the posting of a 2003 conviction was in poor taste here, and that some of the following posts were quite hypocritical, speculating on "other criminal behavior" in a thread about dirty cages.

You say this Sammy:

Character assassination? Please Jim. This guy made some very poor choices and brought this on himself. There is more than one thread here at Fauna about him, not just this one so lets not act like this is an isolated case. He was not picked him out of the clear blue sky just to ruin his reputation. There is a pattern of behavior here.

See it anyway you choose, my words were "poor taste" regarding the post, and I have made no excuse for cattle rustling. The pattern that annoys me, and which I took clear and specific objection with, is for someone with a criminal record to be so quick to smear someone else because they have one. That was the character assassinaton which I referenced, and that is a difficult concept for you to accept that I have.

You say this:

.....With every post along those lines you make Jim I lose more and more respect for you.

Others understand my criticisms and position here. I linked the speculation based on past criminal behavior to hypocrisy to character assassination. You disagreed with my take on character assassination, and then wondered where the "criminal records" thing came from. My words had been "criminal convictions" and "criminal past", and I had linked them in my post about character assassination. You disagreed. OK.

I have to laugh a bit when reading this:

Can you EVER reply to someone without fabricating a bunch of crap that the person did not even say or elude to?

and then read this:

..... so lets not act like this is an isolated case. He was not picked him out of the clear blue sky just to ruin his reputation.

Perhaps you cannot see the irony here. When you say "lets", I guess you have a mouse in your pocket? So who is fabricating. Go ahead and quote my reference to clear blue sky .... except that I didn't even make anything close to it. Crap? Who's fabricating Sammy.

Sammy, I often respect your posts. I have found that while you dish out disagreement and criticism when you feel it appropriate, you struggle with it when it is returned. Agreeing with me is certainly not your goal. Likewise, agreeing with you is not mine. My opinion of you has varied as well. I'll leave the viewers to wonder. So what.

 

[shrap]

LMAO.... As has become your "norm", Jim, another post that has absolutely nothing to do with what I said and more attempts at misdirection and to belittle people. You aint worth my time anymore, Mr. Flaherty.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

I realize that hypocrisy is a difficult concept for a few Sammy. May I suggest dictionary.com, goenglish.com, etc. Your logic is too much of a stretch for me, but you are welcome to it!

I was the first to say when the private emails from Jim to Laura were posted on this thread that it was wrong. I don’t have to agree with each member all the time and frankly, I usually state my opinions when it bothers me enough. I don’t like to see members here constantly trying to rip each other part. We should be focused on the betterment of this community.

I like to believe we all have the same purpose for being here. We care about this community enough to try to make a difference. In that regard, I never try to discourage those posting on the BOI that are making efforts to contribute to the community in this regard. A lot of the time situations that come up on the BOI, it’s not hard to figure out the truth. Usually, the party in the wrong becomes apparent as the thread progresses along. The outright scammers are usually figured out fairly quickly. Sometimes it’s a little more complicated. Within the last six months, I would like to believe that Jim has also now come to this theory as well.

Early on many stressed a complaint about Jim’s sudden urge to post on many threads and I disregarded them in favor of what Sammy posted. I don’t remember the exact words but he expressed the fact that Jim is a valued member here and his opinions count the same as the rest of ours. I agree with that statement.

See it anyway you choose, my words were "poor taste" regarding the post, and I have made no excuse for cattle rustling. The pattern that annoys me, and which I took clear and specific objection with, is for someone with a criminal record to be so quick to smear someone else because they have one. That was the character assassinaton which I referenced, and that is a difficult concept for you to accept that I have.

What it appears that has happened yesterday, to me anyway, is that a valued member of this forum attempted to stifle another member into silence only because they have had personal squabbles as of late with this person. It has nothing to do with the facts of this thread. The information has been common knowledge to most for a long time. It is obviously transparent that it would not have been posted if it weren’t for a personal conflict between these two members.

Let’s talk about hypocrisy!

It was less than 180 days ago that you Jim admonished JimO, DAND, and many others about the need to post on so many threads. Actually, you made quite a big deal about people who have more than three posts per day and they have nothing better to do with time. Jim you may have registered in 2002 but all your posts have come within the last 180 days. Jim that’s 3.8 posts per day. I wonder if many now hold the that same position you took but in regards to your posts.

 

[hill4803]

I have read this thread since the 1st post by Bryon. It is not in dispute that Allan has kept his animals is sub-standard and filthy conditions. He has pretty much admitted as such...saying that this is the way he quarentines animals, in groups and so forth. I don't remember which post it was in, although I'm sure Jim does. Anyway...it seems that there are 2 camps on this thread: 1 group is mortified that Allan has been keeping his animals this way and will probably not be doing any deals with Allan (especially now, it seems Allan has closed up shop) and the 2nd group is determined to call into question the motives and morals of the 1st group. It has been asked on this thread several times why those in group #2 seem to be so heavily vested in this thread. Specifically, I am amazed that Jim has been able to go back and pull quotes and citations of which post this or that was said in...seems to me there is more than just a little interest in saving Allan's reputation or making sure justice is served and hypocrisy is stamped out on the BOI. It seems to me that Allan will survive and will continue to conduct business as he sees fit, which is his right. And others will continue to associate and conduct business as they see fit...as far as I can tell, the issue is dead. But the thread is a reminder to investigate and know who you are looking to do business with, past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior. By the way...I have no criminal record, I am very good at hiding the bodies

Ro Hill

 

[Chameleon Company]

Ro,
I think that the second group could be more accurately described as finding fault with both parties. I have lamented my own familiarity with the thread on more than one occasion. Good post otherwise though.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Dennis

It was less than 180 days ago that you Jim admonished JimO, DAND, and many others about the need to post on so many threads. Actually, you made quite a big deal about people who have more than three posts per day and they have nothing better to do with time. Jim you may have registered in 2002 but all your posts have come within the last 180 days. Jim that’s 3.8 posts per day. I wonder if many now hold the that same position you took but in regards to your posts.

Yikes, I am being watched and catalogued! Well, since we have been members roughly the same amount of time, another 800-900 posts and I'll catch you!

What it appears that has happened yesterday, to me anyway, is that a valued member of this forum attempted to stifle another member into silence only because they have had personal squabbles as of late with this person. It has nothing to do with the facts of this thread. The information has been common knowledge to most for a long time. It is obviously transparent that it would not have been posted if it weren’t for a personal conflict between these two members.

Let’s talk about hypocrisy!

Well, I am not sure if I am one of the "two members" you refer to, and have to wonder if I am half of the personal conflict, and Laura the other half, of the "personal squabbles" as you put it. If so, lets inject just a small portion of the last note that I received from Laura in an exchange we had five days ago:

Talk about some funny stuff huh.....I misplaced your number or I'd call you 714 ***-**** if you're up to some chatter.

Hate to deflate your theory, or if you stated it as fact, that you had the facts wrong. So maybe you can enlighten me Dennis?

I have learned much about people in this thread, as have others. Been a great exercise in how people handle, or don't handle, disagreement and criticism.

We are in agreement that much here does not have to do with the "facts of the thread". Has to do with voluntary actions and opinions, the desire of one entity to find fault with another, and a general failure of folks to move on. Let me see, prior to the cattle rustling, Allen's crime in the thread was ....... what?

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Yikes, I am being watched and catalogued! Well, since we have been members roughly the same amount of time, another 800-900 posts and I'll catch you!

I wasn’t the one complaining about others posting.

Well, I am not sure if I am one of the "two members" you refer to, and have to wonder if I am half of the personal conflict, and Laura the other half, of the "personal squabbles" as you put it. If so, lets inject just a small portion of the last note that I received from Laura in an exchange we had five days ago:
Hate to deflate your theory, or if you stated it as fact, that you had the facts wrong. So maybe you can enlighten me Dennis?

I stated that it was the appearance to me. Come on Jim! You narrowed it down enough yesterday. Everyone could see which member you were talking about. After the recent events from the past few pages, It looked more like petty blackmail to shut someone up, than your concern about the topic.

I also can confirm Laura's openness about her ordeal, as she was equally forthcoming to me about it months ago.

Sounds a little like posting private messages to me.
Did we not just have this discussion several pages back?

 

[Dennis Hultman]

You quoted one poster earlier in this thread to remove credibility from Laura and others.

Here is a very recent quote from a thread in a different section of this site, addressed to Rich, the main squeeze, by someone whom I respect who has participated in this thread, and not necessarily in agreement with me.

Rich, I just joined the Hell forum today and let me say, it was quite the eye opener. People who I have had a great deal of respect for are a little bit more tarnished then I had imagined. Given what I have seen take place in an unmoderated forum, I can only say that I am sorry for giving you (Rich) such a hard time (about a matter dealing with site rules enforcement).

Only fitting to also use the same poster again.

Jim, you have moved from Devil's advocate to Devil's agent. You used to be right on the money but anymore I am forced to take your opinions and comments as nothing more than worthless chatter. I have never seen someone so off base as you especially given the numerous threads here. What a pity too.

 

[Junkyard]

I have learned much about people in this thread, as have others. Been a great exercise in how people handle, or don't handle, disagreement and criticism.

Hmm...me too.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Dennis, seems I was grossly mistaken.

I joined over two years before you, but yet need over 850 posts, with you abstaining, just to catch up !!

I do now understand your take on one point, although you made in incorrect assumption:

I stated that it was the appearance to me. Come on Jim! You narrowed it down enough yesterday. Everyone could see which member you were talking about. After the recent events from the past few pages, It looked more like petty blackmail to shut someone up, than your concern about the topic.

I had emailed Laura on the side, and hoped that she would identify herself as the entity who I was accusing of gross hypocrisy in a thread which she had been involved with since before the very first post. Like I said, if anyone posted that they felt that Laura's experience with the law could extrapolate into valid speculation that she was a bigger criminal than we knew, as she put it herself, when commenting about the revelation of Allen's cattle rustling:

What I believe that articles (cattle rustling conviction) show is a pattern of behavior consistant of theft, lawlessness and unethical behavior. I really wonder how many of his so called business dealings have not been discovered. Kinda make me go hmmmmm.

.... I would have been all over them. Since you are cataloguing my posts Dennis, maybe you can find the one's where I have expressed disdain in the past for actions such as the introduction of criminal records when they do not relate to the thread complaint. As I said, I only characterized it as a poor choice, and saved the bulk of my complaint here squarely for one member with a criminal conviction deciding to expand with gusto the negative inferences on another because of a conviction as well.

Sounds a little like posting private messages to me.
Did we not just have this discussion several pages back

Reaching for straws now?

Dennis, we have disagreed before. We have given each other rep points before too. These last three posts are not your best. BTW, the last little snippet I had from Laura, before our "mythical" squabbles, was also the last note I had from her. I think my email to her practically begged for her to jump back in and explain her decision to smear Allen again, or as I think I put it, was grossly uncalled for as she knew exactly how people could cruelly use a legal blemish against someone, and not just leave it for others to comment on. With the way the chat-room-gang has pursued this from the beginning, I expect we'll get more Allen Belcher dirty laundry in another month or so. I am obviously not in this one for the poll numbers. That much I think you figured out. 866 posts to go and counting, BTW.