Allen Belcher / Big Daddy's Wholesale ... WARNING

[Bill_Leverton]

I didn't even notice, Damn....and he had some nice animals for sale too.

 

[Cat_72]

Thanks, Terry

Terry has sent me a more readable copy of the vet report, which was sent to him in an email from Allen. Thanks, Terry.

 

[Bill_Leverton]

Now thats better..... So I take it as this is a yes ???

 

[Bill & Amy]

Terry forwarded 2 of the emails to me, since noone else is posting them should I?

 

[Cat_72]

I asked if I had permission to post the emails, but I have not received it, so haven't posted them, Bill.

 

[big daddy's wholesal]

SORRY GUYS FOR NOT POSTING SOONER I WAS AT MY SONS FOOTBALL GAME.
I WILL BE POSTING ALL OF THE EMAILS THAT THIS GUY SENT ME. AND I WOULD LIKE TO ADD THAT YESTERDAY WAS THE FIRST TIME I HAVE HEARD FROM THIS GUY.
*************
NOTE: This message was sent to you via the Kingsnake.com Classifieds. If you feel this message is fraudulent or abusive please forward it to [email protected].
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*************

To whom it may concern,
Back in august of 06 i purchased a BCI from you, from the start regurge, weakness and a few mites. The snake did not last 3 weeks. Being my only boid, i took the animal to the vet to have a necropsy done, preliminary diagnosis was an abscess, i had the Heart, liver, stomach sent to the pathology lab for a better idea of what caused the quick and unusual death. I got the results back today and found Positive for Esoinophilic cytoplasmic inclusion bodies (IBD). I am not at all too upset, i only lost one $50 animal but i am concerned for you, who may have many snakes with the disease. So just a friendly warning, maybe a good time to have some tests done.
Sorry for bad news, Ron Kerstetter


Ok allen, i am not trying to say anything except what my experience was, my
brother and his friend still have the two others that we bought from you and
they seem to be fine, however i have no other explaination on how this snake
got the disease. i only have one other snake and he is a corn, i was
informed that corn snakes are not affected by this disease. My reasoning for
not contacting sooner is that i had no way of contacting you untill i saw
this ad on kingsnake, i did have one of your yellow cards but my girlfriend
threw it out while cleaning. I am not asking for my money back i was just
concerned, i have instructed my brother to have some tests done and i will
keep you updated on that snakes health. The mites that i found on the snake
were indeed discovered after a week or so, so it may be very possible that i
picked up the mites at a pet store or some other place. This very well could
be my fault by not taking any procedures in and out of other stores, but i
am a rookie so i didnt know IBD from my ass at first but i am a quick study
so i tend to learn everything i can soak in very quickly. if in fact the
other snake(s) i purchased from you do have the disease i will have to
believe that the source was atleast at that show that day, because each
snake was separated before we got to my house and never came in contact
after that.

Thank you for your dealing with me promptly

Ron Kerstetter



>From: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: Message about: MALE WOMAS ALMOST THREE FEET BEST PRICING ON
>KINGSNAKE
>Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 22:11:29 EDT
>
>RON,
> I HAVE AUBURN UNIVERSITY COME OUT AND RUN TEST AND CONDUCT
>STUDIES
>ON OUR ENTIRE COLLECTION OF RODENTS AND REPTILES. AT NO TIME IN OUR
>HISTORY
>HAVE WE HAD IBD IN ANY ANIMALS OR REPTILES AT OR IN OUR FACILITY. I RAISE
>PRIMARILLY HIGH END BALL PYTHONS. I ALSO BREED BOAS, RETICS, AND MANY
>KINDS OF
>COLLUBRIDS. IF WE HAD IBD IN OUR FACILITY IT WOULD HAVE BEEN PICKED UP ON
>BY
>THE UNIVERSITY. THEY HAVE CONDUCTED TESTS ON OUR FACILITY TWICE SINCE THAT
>SHOW
>AND 7 TIMES PRIOR TO THE SHOW THIS YEAR. ALSO THE IBD AFFECTS BALL PYTHONS
>VERY QUICKLY. IT USUALLY TAKES 28-35 DAYS TO KILL BALL PYTHONS. WE SPEND
>ALOT
>OF TIME AND MONEY TO ENSURE THE HEALTH AND QUALITY OF THE SNAKES WE SELL.
>I HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU THOUGH.
>1. WHY IS THIS THE FIRST TIME I HAVE HEARD FROM YOU CONCERNING THIS SNAKE?
>I WISH YOU WOULD HAVE CALLED ME OR EMAILED ME IMMEDIATELY. I WOULD HAVE
>LIKED TO HAVE KNOWN WHAT WAS GOING ON WITH THE SNAKE SOONER THAN THIS. I
>ALSO
>SOLD TWO OTHER VENDORS AND THE PROMOTER OF THAT SHOW SOME OF THOSE SNAKES.
>I
>CONTACTED THEM AND NEITHER OF THEM HAS HAD ANY PROBLEMS WITH THEIR SNAKES.
>I
>ALSO WILL ADD THAT IF THE SNAKES HAD TICKS THEY DID NOT COME FROM ME. THOSE
>WERE
>NOT WILD CAUGHT SNAKES THEY WERE PRODUCED BY A LOCAL BREEDER HERE IN
>ALABAMA.
>I WILL HOWEVER SEND YOU YOUR $50.00 THAT YOU PAID BACK TO YOU. THANKS
>ALLEN

NONE OF OUR SNAKES HAD ANY MITES AND NONE OF THE OTHER SNAKES WE SOLD HAVE HAD ANY PROBLEMS. WE HAVE NOTIFIED THE OTHER PEOPLE THAT WE KNOW TO HAVE PURCHASED BOAS AT THAT SHOW AND NONE HAVE HAD ANY PROBLEMS EITHER. YOU SAID YOURSELF THAT THE OTHER BOAS YOU PURCHASED THAT DAY THAT ARE IN THE CARE OF YOUR FRIENDS ARE IN PERFECT CONDICTION. YOU MAY VERY WELL HAVE PICKED THIS VIRUS UP THROUGH THE MITES THAT YOU SAY YOU PICKED UP FROM ANOTHER PET SHOP. DID YOU INFACT BRING THIS SNAKE INTO ANOTHER PET SHOP? I AM SURE THAT THE VIRUS DID NOT COME FROM OUR FACILITY. I AM STILL WILLING TO REFUND THE MONEY THAT YOU SAY YOU SPENT WITH ME. I DON'T EVEN KNOW THAT THIS SNAKE CAME FROM ME BUT I WAS ALREADY AND WILL STILL GIVE YOU THE SAME CUSTOMER SERVICE THAT WE WOULD OFFER TO ANY OF OUR CUSTOMERS.

ALLEN BELCHER
OWNER BIG DADDY'S WHOLESALE

 

[Cat_72]

Someone please correct me if I'm sitaken, but from what I know of IBD, I understand that it isn't possible to test for it on a live animal?

 

[Cat_72]

*mistaken

 

[Dixie Reptiles]

I am not a vet but the terms, so called, and organism has not been conclusively identified, leads me to believe They are not sure of this.Terry

 

[Chameleon Company]

It can be tested on a live animal. It is intrusive and not cheap.

 

[Cat_72]

Terry, the "so called" the vet is referring to, and the "organism", is referring to the cause of IBD. It is plainly stated that the animal HAD IBD.

 

[Cat_72]

Inclusion body disease (IBD) affecting boas and pythons is a serious and common disease. Boas can be clinically healthy carriers, which makes control of the disease difficult. The causative agent has not yet been confidently identified, and therefore there are no serodiagnostic tests available. Today, histopathologic examination of tissue biopsies is the recommended antemortem diagnostic method, but there are several disadvantages. The objective of this study was to compare the sensitivity of two diagnostic methods – liver biopsies and blood smears, and to evaluate ultrasoundguided needle biopsy of the liver. Sixteen clinically healthy boas aging from 1,5 months to 4 years or more, and from different collections in Sweden were used in the study. Blood samples for blood smears were collected from all snakes, liver biopsies by celiotomy were performed on fourteen, and ultrasoundguided needle biopsies on five. The blood smears were stained with May-Grünewald-Giemsa, and the tissue samples were after preparation stained with hematoxylin and eosin. They were then examined with light microscopy for intracytoplasmic eosinophilic inclusion bodies in hepatocytes or blood cells. Typical IBD-inclusions were found in liver biopsies from four of the snakes, but no inclusions were found in blood smears from the same animals. Sampling by ultrasoundguided needle biopsy resulted in representative samples. In conclusion, a blood smear is not a reliable diagnostic alternative to identify IBD-positive snakes compared to liver biopsies, as liver biopsy by celiotomy or needle biopsy is a more sensitive method.

Warnholtz, Camilla (2005) Inclusion Body Disease hos boa- och pytonorm. Dept. of Biomedical Sciences and Veterinary Public Health, SLU.

Faculty: Faculty of Veterinary Medicine and Animal Science
Series.: Examensarbete (Sveriges lantbruksuniversitet, Fakulteten för veterinärmedicin och husdjursvetenskap, Veterinärprogrammet)
ISSN: 1652-8697
Volume: 2005:57
Number of pages: 23
Year of publication: 2005

 

[airtrixx]

Ok

Ok allen, all i have left to say is , You have seen mine lets see yours...How bout a recent post of clean documentation from the university. Im sure they document something.

 

[nextworld3]

The mites that i found on the snake
were indeed discovered after a week or so, so it may be very possible that i
picked up the mites at a pet store or some other place. This very well could
be my fault by not taking any procedures in and out of other stores, but i
am a rookie so i didnt know IBD from my ass at first but i am a quick study
so i tend to learn everything i can soak in very quickly. if in fact the
other snake(s) i purchased from you do have the disease i will have to
believe that the source was atleast at that show that day, because each
snake was separated before we got to my house and never came in contact
after that.

After reading this thread and seeing Allens animals in person (at the fire show which i will say they looked great to me) I am wondering if the disease came from his facility? I have read the emails that were just posted and this stands out to me... If the snakes were separated the day he got home with them, and he admits to possibly getting mites from a petstore. If the other 2 snakes are fine doesn't it seem like he may have picked it up somewhere else...

 

[Cat_72]

I noticed that as well, Jon. What I question, though, is that the snake was regurging from the first time it fed, and that many times Boas are asymptomatic carriers, which could also explain why the other 2 appear fine. That, and they don't actually KNOW if mites are carriers...

I don't know how quickly syptoms become present in those who actually show the symptoms? Would the Boa have gotten that sick, that quickly, if it did come from the mites after he bought him?

 

[Dixie Reptiles]

path test

organism has NOT been conclusively identified.Maybe I am reading this wrong but not been identified ?

 

[nextworld3]

Good point Cat...

I really dont know how long it would take to show signs of IBD... I know boas can carry it a long time. But i think Allen deals a lot with Ball Pythons and it would show very quickly in them.

 

[SPJ]

organism has NOT been conclusively identified.Maybe I am reading this wrong but not been identified ?

The exact cause of IBD has not been found yet. It can be diagnosed but what causes it, is still unknown.

 

[Bill & Amy]

I agree 3 weeks from time of purchase till death is a rapid decline, especially since the death was from an infection as a secondary from having IBD. That means in 3 weeks time the IBD developed far enough to effect the immune system.

Also the fact the rest of the animals are fine is pointless, as it could take a long time for the symptoms to show.

I am also curious to the quote below of the university coming to your facility and running tests on your whole collection. Sounds quite costly considering the only way to truely test for IBD is a liver biopsy. I would also like to see what you have from the University stating your facility is clean. What kind of tests do they run? What kind of quarantine area do you run and how long? ETC.

RON,
I HAVE AUBURN UNIVERSITY COME OUT AND RUN TEST AND CONDUCT
STUDIES ON OUR ENTIRE COLLECTION OF RODENTS AND REPTILES. AT NO TIME IN OUR HISTORY HAVE WE HAD IBD IN ANY ANIMALS OR REPTILES AT OR IN OUR FACILITY. I RAISE PRIMARILLY HIGH END BALL PYTHONS. I ALSO BREED BOAS, RETICS, AND MANY KINDS OF COLLUBRIDS. IF WE HAD IBD IN OUR FACILITY IT WOULD HAVE BEEN PICKED UP ON BY THE UNIVERSITY. THEY HAVE CONDUCTED TESTS ON OUR FACILITY TWICE SINCE THAT SHOW AND 7 TIMES PRIOR TO THE SHOW THIS YEAR. ALSO THE IBD AFFECTS BALL PYTHONS VERY QUICKLY. IT USUALLY TAKES 28-35 DAYS TO KILL BALL PYTHONS. WE SPEND ALOT OF TIME AND MONEY TO ENSURE THE HEALTH AND QUALITY

 

[big daddy's wholesal]

I have Auburn University come out to our facility on my request. They take samples of urates from reptiles and rodents. they use our facility as a teaching guide for the vet students. They are not there to test for cleanliness. However we must either meet or exceed their exspectations as we deliver to them four times a week each quarter for their birds of prey department and their pathology department. We have three different buildings at our facility. We do not house the petstore quality reptiles and our high end collection in the same building.
I was already convicted by some of you concerning this thread. I have went through the cleanliness of our facility with you already but will indulge you once more. When this thread was originally started I had state, county and city investigators at our retail and wholesale facilities. Since then I have had surprise visits by the state and county investigators many times. From the beginning of the original thread to the present moment, I have not had one problem with the care, housing, condictions or cleanliness of any reptile or rodent in our facility.
Funny thing is that some people that replied to the original thread once they met me and saw our snakes at shows became customers of ours.
Terry has been to my facility more than once and one of those was not planned. So he has the eyes on experience to be able to speak on how my reptiles are housed and cared for.
Think on this for a minute.
This guy emails me with a problem for the first time yesterday afternoon. By the time I email him back He has paid his money to Rich and posted here. Does anyone else find this a little odd?
I have offered to refund you the $50 that you said you paid me for a snake that you said you bought from me. So my question is, So what do you want?
Although I think this answer has already reveiled itself. You added this to an old thread and then got off the subject of your post and tried to pick up on the original topic of the old thread in hopes that the crowd would follow. Bottom line is that the snake died. You said you bought it from me. I said I will refund your money, not even knowing you or the transaction was with me. So I do not know what more to do.
I want to add the IBD disease is not in my facility or did it come from my facility.

Allen Belcher