Bill & Amy
Harley Rider
big daddy's wholesal said:
big daddy's wholesal said:
How would they pickup on IBD if they don't test for it? When I said clean I mant clean of IBD, not the cleanliness of your facility.
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Allen Belcher / Big Daddy's Wholesale ... WARNING
- Thread starter BryonsBoas
- Start date
How would they pickup on IBD if they don't test for it? When I said clean I mant clean of IBD, not the cleanliness of your facility.
big daddy's wholesal
New member
Bill if I had IBD in my facility I would have already had syptoms and by now even deaths.
Allen Belcher
Allen Belcher
Bill_Leverton
New member
(sits here scratching his head) Maybe I missed something here Ron bought a snake from Allen(supposedly) It dies 3 weeks later of IBD, Allen sends Ron his money back. Allen says that his place is clean of IBD.Which I have to believe other wise we would of heard of this sooner, Now comes the Question to Allen, Don't you keep records or carbon copy receipts of who you sell to ? I just can't believe that a snake Dies that quick The IBD had to come from some where, are you sure you sold him this snake ??? I'm just looking at this from all angles here. It's not adding up. I may be wrong.
Chameleon Company
New member
It would be my thinking that to expect a wholesale facility to be thoroughly tested clean of IBD just isn't going to happen. It would be nice, but to shell out $20-50K for tests that are not 100% conclusive ... well, the money will not be spent in the first place. I don't think there will be a wholesale facility tested clean anywhere in the U.S. When you consider that many have hundreds if not thousands of $6-30 BP's move through them in a year, it will never happen on that level. Of course, once a facility has their name and IBD mentioned in the same sentence, they may be facing exceedingly difficult problems as to how they maintain customer confidence, with no easy answers.
As mentioned in many other threads, the onus to protect each and every hobbyist collection, or larger high-end breeder facilities, is with the procurer, not the seller. Smart buying and great quarantine and cleanliness procedures is all you essentially have. Allen or other wholesaler's may want to invest some money in spot-checking, with its limited value except to document and advertise that you do it, but that can be cost prohibitive when competing with others who do not. Would be nice to see folks in this thread post what they believe are practical solutions. Obviously, doing your homework and buying with caution, followed by quarantine, is assumed as the first answer for a buyer. But what should a wholesaler do ? Its a mess.
As mentioned in many other threads, the onus to protect each and every hobbyist collection, or larger high-end breeder facilities, is with the procurer, not the seller. Smart buying and great quarantine and cleanliness procedures is all you essentially have. Allen or other wholesaler's may want to invest some money in spot-checking, with its limited value except to document and advertise that you do it, but that can be cost prohibitive when competing with others who do not. Would be nice to see folks in this thread post what they believe are practical solutions. Obviously, doing your homework and buying with caution, followed by quarantine, is assumed as the first answer for a buyer. But what should a wholesaler do ? Its a mess.
Bill_Leverton
New member
Oh one more thing Ron do you have a picture of this snake you bought from Allen (for verification purposes)
I'm in absolute agreement with Bill here. Current scientific literature suggests that IBD is a chronic disease. In simple terms this means that symptoms (let alone death) should not occur in three week's time. This is the first time that I've heard of a breeder that routinely tests their animals for IBD though, but I can be wrong.
Regards,
big daddy's wholesal
New member
Bill I have been reading the posts and the emails that this guy has written to me over and ver looking for something to trigger my memory. I can not say that the guy bought A snake from me. However one thing has just hit me. The snake in the paperwork from the vet says that it is 6 months old. The boas that I had at that show were 19 days old and had eaten their first meal. So if this was a snake bought from me and it died three weeks after the purchase it could only be estimated 6 weeks old. I will be talking to the vet again on Monday. I do not give receipts unless the customer asks for them. I however do not remember this guy. I would like to see the snake though. I will add that all of the boas i have had this year have all been bought from two breeders. And the ones in question here were very pink in color.
Allen Belcher
Allen Belcher
ravensgait
Convoluted Member
Ron there is no doubt (the posted report) that your animal died of IBD. But and a rather large but are you sure you bought the animal from Allen? You say you lost the card or whatever it was you had, so is their any possibility that it could have been someone else? Describe the guy you bought it from if you can.
Someone might want to contact the folks who put on that show and see if they can get a vendor list.
Allen they may do test at your facility but they are not from what you described testing for IBD. If you keep the high end Balls ETC separate from the other animals then you might want to look in the building that you house the imported ETC animals at . The- It ain't here- isn't flying because you have no way of knowing it isn't there by the test that were done..
From what I understand of IBD after being infected it can take months to over a year before any symptoms show up and it affects each animal differently IE 3 snakes get it one dies in a couple month and the others may go a year or more. It Kills pythons within a month or two, which is why some keep Balls with or next to new Boas to test the hard way for IBD...
Need to make sure we have the right person in this but regardless the Boa had IBD and he got it somewhere and most likely passed through a place or two before he met his end. Randy
Someone might want to contact the folks who put on that show and see if they can get a vendor list.
Allen they may do test at your facility but they are not from what you described testing for IBD. If you keep the high end Balls ETC separate from the other animals then you might want to look in the building that you house the imported ETC animals at . The- It ain't here- isn't flying because you have no way of knowing it isn't there by the test that were done..
From what I understand of IBD after being infected it can take months to over a year before any symptoms show up and it affects each animal differently IE 3 snakes get it one dies in a couple month and the others may go a year or more. It Kills pythons within a month or two, which is why some keep Balls with or next to new Boas to test the hard way for IBD...
Need to make sure we have the right person in this but regardless the Boa had IBD and he got it somewhere and most likely passed through a place or two before he met his end. Randy
Cat_72
Back from exile :)
Allen, I don't think that most people here have "convicted" you of anything, but just addressing this with "it isn't in my facility" just doesn't cut it. Now, I'm going to hope that your high-end breeders are housed completely separately from your wholesale animals and quarantine procedures are followed when going between the 2, as opposed to what was stated in the beginning of this thread, is this correct? Hopefully, if so, that would have protected your BP breeders.
So Ron purchased this animal on September 2nd, and from the first feeding, she is regurging, and within 3 weeks, she is dead. The boa actually died from a secondary infection caused by the IBD....I just can't believe that the IBD was contracted after it was purchased by Ron, and had such severe secondary symptoms that quickly. I believe that the boa had IBD when he purchased it.
BUT.....now we come to wonder, did he in fact purchase it from you. I have only been a vendor at one smaller show, and I could never remember everyone who I spoke with, nor who purchased anything if I hadn't made out receipts, and I wasn't even selling a bunch of high end Ball Pythons that would have attracted a large crowd of "lookers" either. So I can understand you honestly not remembering if he did buy it from you or not (which would be why I decided to ALWAYS make out receipts, for my protection as well as the customers, time consuming as it is).
So the question is....where to go from here? Obviously, the "testing" done at your facility isn't going to tell you anything about IBD. If I were you, I would want to know, with 100% certainty, that my facility was clear of IBD, even if I "belived" it to be, with something like this happening. Do you have any of the other boas you purchased left? Or do the breeders you purchased them from? It may be very well worth the time and expense to have some of them tested, or even other animals that may have been housed in the same area as them.....boas can be asymptomatic for a long period of time. Not knowing how reputable the breeders are that you purchased the animals from originally is, they may not even tell you if they HAVE had other animals die....I'd be damn determined to find out for myself. No matter what the cost, because not knowing for certain could end up costing you a whole lot more.
So Ron purchased this animal on September 2nd, and from the first feeding, she is regurging, and within 3 weeks, she is dead. The boa actually died from a secondary infection caused by the IBD....I just can't believe that the IBD was contracted after it was purchased by Ron, and had such severe secondary symptoms that quickly. I believe that the boa had IBD when he purchased it.
BUT.....now we come to wonder, did he in fact purchase it from you. I have only been a vendor at one smaller show, and I could never remember everyone who I spoke with, nor who purchased anything if I hadn't made out receipts, and I wasn't even selling a bunch of high end Ball Pythons that would have attracted a large crowd of "lookers" either. So I can understand you honestly not remembering if he did buy it from you or not (which would be why I decided to ALWAYS make out receipts, for my protection as well as the customers, time consuming as it is).
So the question is....where to go from here? Obviously, the "testing" done at your facility isn't going to tell you anything about IBD. If I were you, I would want to know, with 100% certainty, that my facility was clear of IBD, even if I "belived" it to be, with something like this happening. Do you have any of the other boas you purchased left? Or do the breeders you purchased them from? It may be very well worth the time and expense to have some of them tested, or even other animals that may have been housed in the same area as them.....boas can be asymptomatic for a long period of time. Not knowing how reputable the breeders are that you purchased the animals from originally is, they may not even tell you if they HAVE had other animals die....I'd be damn determined to find out for myself. No matter what the cost, because not knowing for certain could end up costing you a whole lot more.
Chameleon Company
New member
Regrettably, as mentioned earlier, and with the insidious nature of IBD, "no matter what the cost" is just plain impractical for many. As a home breeder with higher end critters, if that is an acceptable characterization, it may make sense and be practical for you Cathy. But for someone with hundreds of possible carriers, running the full gamut of value, 100% testing is not going to happen IMO. Nor is 50%. Nor is 25%. Agreed that if it is in Allen's animals, or any other wholesaler who has many animals pass through, that it is hoped that there is some quarantine barrier between the good stuff and the cheap stuff. Unfortunately, if faced with a $50 animal and a $200 test to determine if its clean, the best answer might be to have to put it down. Where some animals may take 1-2 years to show symptoms, isolation for that long is also not practical. Allen may want to look at a small group of the most likely culprit animals and have them tested, and then use those results to decide where to go next.
airtrixx
New member
Snake pic
This is the animal that died from ibd...not a very good pic but is all i really have, this was the day after i bought it, the man who i bought the snake from was a about 6 ft tall, on the heavy side with glasses. Thats all i can really remember, but yes i for sure bought the snake from " Big daddys wholesale". you all need to realize that this was my first boa and i never had mite problems with any of my other snakes/lizards so i had no clue what i was really looking for at the time of sale. i didnt realize the mite thing untill i saw a bunch of little black balls stuck to the snake i wiped them off and realized they were moving a bit, that was my first encounter with mites. so if they were there...i dont know. Now for the age thing...I had not a clue how old that snake was when the doc asked, so i just told him may 1 which is also my house dogs bday, i didnt think it mattered, actually it doesnt you can see this animal isnt 6 months old if it barley wraps around my hand.
as for allen, you say you dont know what i want, i told you in the first email...i dont want anything but was worried about the animals. And after days of searching and realizing how much i may be paying for animals in the future, i would hate to have them all die and me lose out on my hard earned money...see im not in retail, i labor, i kill myself every day for my money, so to lose out on it and a collection of beautiful animals because someone only cares about money and not the hobby would suck.
This is the animal that died from ibd...not a very good pic but is all i really have, this was the day after i bought it, the man who i bought the snake from was a about 6 ft tall, on the heavy side with glasses. Thats all i can really remember, but yes i for sure bought the snake from " Big daddys wholesale". you all need to realize that this was my first boa and i never had mite problems with any of my other snakes/lizards so i had no clue what i was really looking for at the time of sale. i didnt realize the mite thing untill i saw a bunch of little black balls stuck to the snake i wiped them off and realized they were moving a bit, that was my first encounter with mites. so if they were there...i dont know. Now for the age thing...I had not a clue how old that snake was when the doc asked, so i just told him may 1 which is also my house dogs bday, i didnt think it mattered, actually it doesnt you can see this animal isnt 6 months old if it barley wraps around my hand.
as for allen, you say you dont know what i want, i told you in the first email...i dont want anything but was worried about the animals. And after days of searching and realizing how much i may be paying for animals in the future, i would hate to have them all die and me lose out on my hard earned money...see im not in retail, i labor, i kill myself every day for my money, so to lose out on it and a collection of beautiful animals because someone only cares about money and not the hobby would suck.
Attachments
Bill_Leverton
New member
Damn.... That was a nice looking snake 
Ginger Ambrose
New member
Sorry you lost this little one. It is tragic.
Bill_Leverton
New member
Allen, 2 things here (1) The description of the seller was described, was it you ? (2) The picture was presented is it yours ?? The reason I ask is I saw you here viewing this thread yesterday and didn't see your responce inquiring minds are wondering here, seeing as you do have some nice boas for sale, and something like this could really put a damper on things.
Cat_72
Back from exile :)
It is a shame that you lost such a beautiful snake, Ron.
Allen, you said that you purchased boas from 2 different breeders, with all of the babies being very pink from one of them. This one doesn't look pink at all to me, so that could narrow down your search quite a bit.....any babies left from that breeder? Any contact with that breeder?
Allen, you said that you purchased boas from 2 different breeders, with all of the babies being very pink from one of them. This one doesn't look pink at all to me, so that could narrow down your search quite a bit.....any babies left from that breeder? Any contact with that breeder?
Bill & Amy
Harley Rider
Cat_72 said:
Well we both know how hard it is to get the true pink to show up in pictures.
But I can see some hints along the sides, but without a full body pic it is hard to say how pink it is. Allen was on here this morning, if the description of him was wrong I guess he would have said so.
big daddy's wholesal
New member
BILL I HAVE A NEW TWIST ON THIS. I PURCHASED BOAS FROM TWO DIFFERENT BREEDERS THIS YEAR. THE ONES I HAD AT THE SHOW CAME FROM TEGUS FOR YOU. LATE LAST NIGHT I SPOKE WITH THE OWNERS WHO HAVE PHOTO I.D. OF EVERY SNAKE THAT THEY PRODUCED. GUESS WHAT NOT A MATCH WITH ANY OF THEIR OFFSPRING. I HAVE SEVERAL DIFFERENT PEOPLE THAT HAVE SNAKES THAT CAME FROM THIS LITTER AND I ALONG WITH THE BREEDER CONTACTED EVERYONE YESTERDAY. GUESS WHAT AGAIN, NOT ONE PERSON HAS HAD ANY PROBLEMS WITH A SNAKE. Don't miss this next part. WHILE IN CHURCH YESTERDAY MORNING I RECEIVED A CALL FROM A GUY CLAIMING TO KNOW RON. HE WENT ON TO SAY THAT HE BOUGHT A SNAKE FROM ME AT THE SHOW, BUT THAT RON DID NOT. HE SAID THAT RON COULD NOT REMEMBER WHO HE BOUGHT THE SNAKE FROM AT THE SHOW. HE WOULD NOT GIVE ME HIS NAME. HOWEVER I HAD THE CALL LOOKED AT BY MY NEXTEL ACCOUNTING, AND IT CAME FROM A PAY PHONE IN RADNOR PA. HE WENT ON TO EXPLAIN HOW RON HAD ASKED HIM TO HELP HIM WITH DETERMINING WHAT VENDORS WERE AT THE SHOW AND HOW TO GET IN TOUCH WITH THEM. THEN RON WANTED MY NAME AND HELP REMEMBERING WHAT I LOOKED LIKE. HE ALSO ADDED THAT THE SNAKE IN THE PICTURE WAS NOT THE SNAKE THAT DIED BUT ONE THAT ANOTHER ONE OF THEIR FRIENDS OWNS.
So Bill I don't know everything but I knew from the very start of this that something was not adding up. The first email which is posted here was the first time I heard from this kid and he did not know my name then. It was addressed to whom it may concern. He also stated that he lost my yellow card. My cards are tan and all are done by the same printer everytime. He said he just found my add on kingsnake. I advertise everyday on kingsnake and usually in excess of 10 adds per day. His tone with me on the emails and his tone with me on this board are two faced as well. You can even see yourself that the kid wants to jump around on topics.
Bottom line with this situation is this. I have a very close friend that lives in N.J. and is speaking with his attorney today on what I can do legally about this. I hope I have some kind of legal recourse with this guy!
To everyone: We all hope and pray that IBD or any other terminal disease never hits our collection. So we take preventive precautions to try to ensure the health and protection of our reptiles. However none of us are 100% certain. So we hope and we pray and we use good judgement along with just plain old smarts to ensure that we do all we can to protect our reptiles. I can say that knowing now that the snake in question did not come from me gave me a good nights rest at the least last night. Now I have also been looked at as someone who loves the money but not the reptiles. You know truth is that is how it started for me. I saw the money that could be made. Very quickly though I found that if I did not enjoy this I would not make it in this industry very long. When I started doing this I had four companies. Now I have two and I have a passion for the reptiles that far exceeds my wildest dreams. I find myself calculating money in terms of that's 5 albino balls or a pair of super tigers, instead of another dollar in the bank.
Now I want to thank several of you who have looked for the truth and asked questions instead of pointing fingers. Also thanks for the ones of you that took the time to call me and speak with me directly. It is not a secret that I am still on "hooked on phonics for computers".
I see quotes at the bottom of some of your posts here so here's one.
LIFE IS A FUNNY THING, BUT NOT ALWAYS HA HA FUNNY!
Allen Belcher
706-615-4772
So Bill I don't know everything but I knew from the very start of this that something was not adding up. The first email which is posted here was the first time I heard from this kid and he did not know my name then. It was addressed to whom it may concern. He also stated that he lost my yellow card. My cards are tan and all are done by the same printer everytime. He said he just found my add on kingsnake. I advertise everyday on kingsnake and usually in excess of 10 adds per day. His tone with me on the emails and his tone with me on this board are two faced as well. You can even see yourself that the kid wants to jump around on topics.
Bottom line with this situation is this. I have a very close friend that lives in N.J. and is speaking with his attorney today on what I can do legally about this. I hope I have some kind of legal recourse with this guy!
To everyone: We all hope and pray that IBD or any other terminal disease never hits our collection. So we take preventive precautions to try to ensure the health and protection of our reptiles. However none of us are 100% certain. So we hope and we pray and we use good judgement along with just plain old smarts to ensure that we do all we can to protect our reptiles. I can say that knowing now that the snake in question did not come from me gave me a good nights rest at the least last night. Now I have also been looked at as someone who loves the money but not the reptiles. You know truth is that is how it started for me. I saw the money that could be made. Very quickly though I found that if I did not enjoy this I would not make it in this industry very long. When I started doing this I had four companies. Now I have two and I have a passion for the reptiles that far exceeds my wildest dreams. I find myself calculating money in terms of that's 5 albino balls or a pair of super tigers, instead of another dollar in the bank.
Now I want to thank several of you who have looked for the truth and asked questions instead of pointing fingers. Also thanks for the ones of you that took the time to call me and speak with me directly. It is not a secret that I am still on "hooked on phonics for computers".
I see quotes at the bottom of some of your posts here so here's one.
LIFE IS A FUNNY THING, BUT NOT ALWAYS HA HA FUNNY!
Allen Belcher
706-615-4772
Cat_72
Back from exile :)
C'mon Allen....you were just reading this, and REPLYING to it...and then you poofed.
I think we're trying to be more than fair giving you the benefit of the doubt here......are you going to do anything?
I think we're trying to be more than fair giving you the benefit of the doubt here......are you going to do anything?
Cat_72
Back from exile :)
Wow, OK, nevermind......that post wasn't here a minute ago, I apologize.
Cat_72
Back from exile :)
Allen....I don't know what kind of ID pics that breeder takes on each and every boa they sell......but I don't know how they could possibly make an ID either way from the picture shown.