Allen Belcher / Big Daddy's Wholesale ... WARNING

[Chameleon Company]

Cat 72 writes:
Terry, I believe the point Laura was trying to make was that Pete Kahl had the money to go through and do the testing and everything that NEEDS to be done. If Allen cannot afford to have the testing done, he needs to be looking at other ways of dealing with this besides continuing to sell animals to unsuspecting customers.

Cathy, I highlighted the part I would ask you to follow-up on if you could. Bryon and Laura, I would implore you to do the same. Laura, I know from private discussons with you that you are personally aware of the conditions of many of wholesaler facilities. I have no doubt about Pete's ability to do whatever is necessary to keep IBD out of his facility, or to minimize and contain it, as my business was adjacent to his up in MD for a couple of years. We have seen IBD devastate other hobbyists who had means well beyond that of a wholesaler to contain the problem. The scenario that I would like to see the solution for is:

It is possible, if not likely, that you had a low-dollar IBD infected animal in your stock 1-2 months ago. You are unable to guarantee that IBD may not be coming in with every batch of 100 BP's etc that you buy wholesale. What do you do, what will it cost, and how does a wholesaler absorb the costs that you claim will be needed.

Here's some of the assumptions that I think should be made in your solution:

1) By "wholesaler", I mean those business entities who deal in larger quantities (100+ per year) of boids in the $10-100 price range.

2) That the cost of an accurate test per animal is $200 minimum.

3) That the necessary quarantine levels to avoid spread of the disease must be included in the solution, as to test an animal and then return it to where it can be infected (ie with untested animals) is not practical.

What I am looking for are realistic "..... other ways of dealing with this besides selling to unsuspecting customers ....", as Cat put it. I would welcome anyone else to offer a solution as well. Thanks in advance

 

[Laura Fopiano]

I have bought snakes from him that are here now. Him being my biggest vendor has nothing to do with this.

Sorry Terry, but him being your largest vendor has everthing to do with this. He has many animals and a wide variety to choose from. That means money out of your pocket if he no longer vends at your shows. The first time pet owner love people like allen, lots to choose from at a price they can afford. And the beauty in that....they have little to no recourse when something goes wrong.

I may be wrong but I think you are the disgruntled employee that started this thread two years ago.

This thread was started on 2/4/06. The man that started this thread was not disgruntled at all. Disheartened or disenchanted by the ugly side of the wholesale inudsrty would be a more acurate statement.

And for Laura,I did not compare anyone to anyone,but in your mind it,s ok if you have alot of money ?

No Terry, IBD is a serious issue that requires live liver biopsies and the destruction of many animals. The testing process is not an inexpensive ordeal.

Vendors put themsevles at chance at every show they do.Any dealer that buys sells and trades could come up with IBD and pass it on.Pete Kahl had it,he was in Daytona why would anyone go there and take a chance?I see now why Allen does not respond here any more and I dont blame him.

Terry, Terry, Terry, allen doesn't respond here because he knows that he has no response that would be good enough to satisfy those who have been wronged here. He has denied having yellow business cards and then oh maybe he does have them....he's gonna have testing done at the university...cough cough choke choke yeah right. Where are those test results????
And yes Terry, you inadvertently compare allen to Pete Kahl!

 

[shrap]

Jim

I have a question for you, sir. If you had two of your customers come to you with vet reports that said the animals that you sold them, inside of a month ago, both died of IBD..... would you temporarily suspend sales or would you just keep right on selling like those two customers never existed?

 

[The BoidSmith]

Jim,

There’s no doubt that running tests on all animals at a wholesale facility would be impractical as well as cost prohibitive.

If no action is taken there are at least two outcomes that I can think of. First: he might be spreading the disease to other collections and perpetuating the problem. Bear in mind he is not selling inexpensive animals as some of them are priced in the thousands. Chances are that people buying snakes from him also have very expensive ones in their collections. It only takes one breeder to get IBD in his collection due to a purchase from Allen to trigger a lawsuit that could end with his business.

Secondly, by Allen not testing his animals he is exposing the rest of his collection to IBD. This could and will eventually also [/B]end with his business[/B]. I’m not sure if Allen is aware that it’s a loose-loose situation any way he looks at it.

There’s only one reasonable solution that occurs to me and it’s what is done when an outbreak of any other devastating disease takes place (e.g. foot and mouth in cattle). It’s called a “sanitary cordon”. Basically it means that no animals get in or out of a certain area until it is determined that the animals are free from the disease. In Allen’s case it means that no snakes leave or enter his facility until they are determined free of IBD. How to do it if he is not willing to test (or can’t because or impracticality or expense)? Simply by waiting; it may take months or maybe years but wait until enough time has elapsed and no animals die with symptoms of the disease. If any animal dies within that period, histopathology should be performed to rule out IBD.

Obviously some might argue that he might not stay in business if he doesn’t keep selling animals. The point is that he will not stay in business if he continues to do so, and it’s confirmed that his animals actually have IBD (refer to reasons for ending his business above). If he wants to work with snakes in the future he should use the “sanitary cordon” approach and not move snakes in or out of his facility. In the meantime he should probably try to find another source of income to sustain himself and his collection.

Regards.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Sammy,
I think my request here of people critical of Allen's actions, or lack there-of, was fair in this thread, to provide the rest of us with their view of the practical standard that should be followed by a wholesaler. I will point out that I have chosen both not to be a wholesaler of boids, inexpensive or otherwise, or to be critical of Allen without providing a measure against which I think he should proceed. I am asking those that have been critical for a plan for wholesalers to follow. Tell you what though, if and when I ring up critisism in a thread against someone, you are welcome to ask me what I feel should have been done, and expect an answer !!
Since you mention it, I assume that it is your feeling that once a wholesaler has reasonable input that IBD may have been in two animals that they have sold recently, that they should suspend sales. OK, fair enough, for how long and then what? Please breakdown your estimates of costs involved, and how a wholesaler would stay in business in an IBD world. Thanks.

 

[shrap]

Jim,

I was simply interested in how you would handle a situation like this yourself since I do respect your business sense. Why you tried to turn it into another one of your pissing matches I have no idea.

 

[Jim O]

Sammy,
I think my request here of people critical of Allen's actions, or lack there-of, was fair in this thread, to provide the rest of us with their view of the practical standard that should be followed by a wholesaler. I will point out that I have chosen both not to be a wholesaler of boids, inexpensive or otherwise, or to be critical of Allen without providing a measure against which I think he should proceed. I am asking those that have been critical for a plan for wholesalers to follow. Tell you what though, if and when I ring up critisism in a thread against someone, you are welcome to ask me what I feel should have been done, and expect an answer !!
Since you mention it, I assume that it is your feeling that once a wholesaler has reasonable input that IBD may have been in two animals that they have sold recently, that they should suspend sales. OK, fair enough, for how long and then what? Please breakdown your estimates of costs involved, and how a wholesaler would stay in business in an IBD world. Thanks.

Jim,

There are no "absolute" right or wrong answers about what to do, but going along as if nothing has happened is less than adequate. The costs to Allen are irrelevant and the onus for a reasonable plan is also on him. It's his risk and his costs. If he chooses to do nothing, and to not inform customers (past, present, and potential future) that IBD has been in his facility, then the costs will be much greater to him if he destroys one high end collection than any measures involved.

You say you want a "plan". Here's one. Since he claims that his "breeding facility" and his "wholesale facility" are in separate structures, destroy all boids in the wholesale facility, have the place professionally sanitized top to bottom, and start anew including all new caging. As for the breeding facility, there he allegedly has some higher end animals and it is reasonable and cost effective to test each of them given their worth. What to do next will depend on the results. Last, have different people work in each facility so there is little potential for cross-contamination. Costs? High. But if he wants to run two separate businesses then them's the breaks.

 

[Wilomn]

Hey Jim, how about he shuts down sales because it's the right thing to do regaurdless of cost to him.

IF there were two snakes in a month that tested postive and came from him, IF he actually cared about anything other than profit, he would voluntarily put things on hold.

Now if he ONLY cared about profit, himself and no one else, the behaviour he has been exhibiting is exactly what would be expected.

I don't think outlining plans and costs do anything but wag the tail of the dog that bit you.

The simple facts are that allen does have IBD, is selling now, continues to lie, and will not change.

Why don't you come up with a battleplan for those to whom allen has lied and possibly robbed, afterall if you sell known shoddy merchandise ie sick and dying snakes, you ARE stealing from your unsuspecting customers, and be of assistance to those who obviously need it.

Instead of, yet again, trying to play the "we don't REALLY know enough" game, similar to that you've played with the spokaninians who ALSO ripped off a lot of people and are continueing to do so through yet ANOTHER supposed family member.

Why not help the guy who needs it for a change?

 

[Chameleon Company]

Jim O. and Dan,
I saw that pretty much as the only solution too. Seems the consensus is that a wholesaler basically goes out of business, at least for awhile, once IBD seems to have occured. I don't know a wholesaler out there who runs an operation capable of keeping IBD out, or from passing it on, so it would seem that the future is very bleak for wholesalers.
Sorry to have overwhelmed you Wes .....

 

[Wilomn]

Sorry to have overwhelmed you Wes .....

Try using this site before using words with more than two syllables.

www.dictionary.com

"I don thin that word meanz what you thin it does," to quote the only spaniard worth qouting.

Of course we all know how you like to ASSume what others are thinking and ASSume what others know.

Rather UNDERwhelming if anything, but use that site, I hate to see someone who makes so many ASSumptions be wrong so often when help is so close.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Since you mention it, I assume that it is your feeling that once a wholesaler has reasonable input that IBD may have been in two animals that they have sold recently, that they should suspend sales. OK, fair enough, for how long and then what? Please breakdown your estimates of costs involved, and how a wholesaler would stay in business in an IBD world. Thanks.

The costs of not taking precautionary measures will exceed by far those of doing so. Sales should be suspended until the status of the animals is determined, no ifs or buts. There are examples of this happening with livestock all the time. Look at the recent outbreak of cattle tuberculosis in California. The farm where the animals were diagnosed with the disease was cordoned and no-animals and or their products were allowed to leave. There’s even a “buffer zone” of certain number of miles around it where no cattle is allowed to be transported. Yes, there was a family behind it, and people whose livelihood depended on selling their product (milk). But you know what? It didn’t matter because the USDA decided that the disease had to be stopped. Is it fair to have all the other farms infected with the disease and the state loosing the TB free status because of one farm. Was this farm at fault because they had TB? Probably not, it could’ve been a deer (they are reservoirs) that infected some of their cows. Similarly snake breeders that are IBD free who buy from a seller which is suspected to have the disease are at risk of loosing their status. Is that fair to them?

Regards.

 

[BryonsBoas]

You say you want a "plan". Here's one. Since he claims that his "breeding facility" and his "wholesale facility" are in separate structures, destroy all boids in the wholesale facility, have the place professionally sanitized top to bottom, and start anew including all new caging. As for the breeding facility, there he allegedly has some higher end animals and it is reasonable and cost effective to test each of them given their worth. What to do next will depend on the results. Last, have different people work in each facility so there is little potential for cross-contamination. Costs? High. But if he wants to run two separate businesses then them's the breaks

As far as I can see thats about the only recourse in a situation like this. It will cause a finacial hit but you have to do what you have to do. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away.

Jim, I have been critical of the entire situation for very simple reasons.

1) Selling potentially infected animals for any reason just smells of scumminess.

2) This has been typical behavior of Allen since this thread started. I.E. vague answers , deny everything , someone elses fault. His posts reek of it.

3) Those potentially infected animals can cause absolute havoc in the boid market.Responsibility can be heavy burden but someone needs to do it and it should start from the seller.Allen selling animals that " ain't quite right " is one thing but we're talking about something much much worse than an animal not eating.

Regardless if this was about Allen or another seller / wholesaler I'd be just as critical.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Heck Wes, why don't we just turn the thread more into the brilliance of the name calling, etc. I thank Dan and Jim O. for their reasoned responses. I'll even wager that you might have one or two somewhere within Wes ..... just haven't decided to post them yet.

Dan, I don't think "fairness" matters, and you probably don't either. The USDA et al have protocols in place the minimize the spread of disease within the bovine industry to product humans and the industry. This includes standards for everyday operation, not just once a problem is found. Our industry has no such standards, and there is not a wholesaler out there of low-end boids with a protocol in place to prevent their passing on the disease prior to actually knowing they have done so. Even then, their actions to do something about it are purely voluntary, and as we know, will vary immensely. Unfortunately, the ethical standard to "suspend sales and do whatever it takes" is not industry wide, and I reckon I know a few whose first reaction would be to sweep it under the rug, hide from it, run for the hills, etc. IBD is very much the boid industry's "scarlet letter".

Got this far and just saw your answer Bryon. It seems to be the forming consensus.

Regardless of Allen's ethical obligations, I think he faces some very difficult business decisions. He has a cost involved, with no guarantees, of trying to prevent losing all his animals, and/or most of his business.

Hearkening back to your asking what I would do Sammy. Its all conjecture, and I really can't give you an answer in all confidence, as it is easier said than done. It would depend on my existing set-up, the current status of my quarantine procedures, how well I could track the paths of the likely infected animals, and numbers crunching. A very bitter but necessary pill to swallow would be to halt the sale of animals. For how long, and the money spent in the interim to not only safeguard my remaining colony, but also re-establish customer credibility, I do not know. One angle that I would have to consider is whatever I thought the industry standard was for managing this disease. In Allen's case, he faces having to do things that other competitors do not now do, as they aren't wearing the scarlet letters yet. I think a part of my solution, were I to have a similar problem with chameleons, would be to include a section to my website, with all the documentation I could muster, as to what actions we took to minimize such medical problems from this point forward. Undoubtedly, I would also have to charge more for my chameleons, and hope that there's enough of a niche in the market for the peace-of-mind that I was charging for. Whatever the course of action, one would have to be aggressively pro-active. Allen has not been.

BTW, one thing we considered when getting into wholesale chameleon production was that there was not yet any known disease that could spread through them if all husbandry was good, such as IBD.

For the most part, I got solutions, and I thank those individuals for the input. And then some nonsense from the usual entity !

 

[shurkahnzz]

I know that Back in the 80's I worked with a Bird importer and he had two buildings one for imports and one for after clearing import and purchased from other dealers. One of the things that had to be done was that when we went from one building to the other we had to strip all clothes off and take a shower with antibacterial soap and then change into seperate jumpsuit that was only worn in the building. Also had to change and shower to get out of the building and jumpsuits were washed everyday. We also had to use gloves at all times or use hand sanitizer between cages. All animals imported were kept that way for 30-60 days and random birds No Matter what cost to use were tested for any and all Disease's. If any bird did test positive for psiticosis( Parrot Fever) the whole flock was destroyed and yes it was a big hit but never once did we cut corners to make a buck. That is what High Insurance Premiums were for. My Insurance Premuim for the upcoming year is $7500 for having insurance on my show Animals and and to cover loss of buisness. Alan should look into that. But then again prob to cheap. to consider that

 

[The BoidSmith]

What's really troubling me most is that Allen seems to have more animals for sale now than he had before the IBD issue came to light. It almost seems as if he wants to get rid of most of his high end ball pythons ASAP. Then again maybe he was out of my radar screen before...

 

[ravensgait]

Dan it sure seems to be what he's up too.

Jim you asked what he could do. Now I'm not a wholesaler but do know a bit about the livestock industry and how they deal with problems and Dan's comments about the problem in Ca. are right on target.

What's I'd add to that is in dealing with the high end collection. I believe that many of his high end animals are Balls and we know that the incubation period for IBD in Pythons is much shorter than it is in Boas. So isolate the pythons for say 3 months and if any die for any reason have them tested.

If they're are high end Boas involved again isolate them but keep low dollar CBB Ball pythons close to them and again wait, say for the Boas 4 months and if any boas or Balls die have them tested. If at the end of this time there is no occurrence of IBD he can be as reasonably assured(as can be without testing all animals) that the animals in question are IBD clear.

Yeah I know not perfect but half way reasonable. Randy

 

[airtrixx]

Jim,

There’s no doubt that running tests on all animals at a wholesale facility would be impractical as well as cost prohibitive.

If no action is taken there are at least two outcomes that I can think of. First: he might be spreading the disease to other collections and perpetuating the problem. Bear in mind he is not selling inexpensive animals as some of them are priced in the thousands. Chances are that people buying snakes from him also have very expensive ones in their collections. It only takes one breeder to get IBD in his collection due to a purchase from Allen to trigger a lawsuit that could end with his business.

Secondly, by Allen not testing his animals he is exposing the rest of his collection to IBD. This could and will eventually also [/B]end with his business[/B]. I’m not sure if Allen is aware that it’s a loose-loose situation any way he looks at it.

There’s only one reasonable solution that occurs to me and it’s what is done when an outbreak of any other devastating disease takes place (e.g. foot and mouth in cattle). It’s called a “sanitary cordon”. Basically it means that no animals get in or out of a certain area until it is determined that the animals are free from the disease. In Allen’s case it means that no snakes leave or enter his facility until they are determined free of IBD. How to do it if he is not willing to test (or can’t because or impracticality or expense)? Simply by waiting; it may take months or maybe years but wait until enough time has elapsed and no animals die with symptoms of the disease. If any animal dies within that period, histopathology should be performed to rule out IBD.

Obviously some might argue that he might not stay in business if he doesn’t keep selling animals. The point is that he will not stay in business if he continues to do so, and it’s confirmed that his animals actually have IBD (refer to reasons for ending his business above). If he wants to work with snakes in the future he should use the “sanitary cordon” approach and not move snakes in or out of his facility. In the meantime he should probably try to find another source of income to sustain himself and his collection.

Regards.

Boidsmith for prez, i like this idea the best. he could feed and maintain all of these animals for just a few dollars...probably less than he sells two or three of those 5000 dollar snakes. Fire the help for a while and do it yourself for a while...oh i forgot he is afraid of reptiles, oh well it was worth a thought.

 

[Chameleon Company]

All just IMHO.

It only takes one breeder to get IBD in his collection due to a purchase from Allen to trigger a lawsuit that could end with his business.

I respectfully disagree. You would have a lawsuit that would have to show negligence on the seller's part. "Buyer beware" is still rule number #1 where there are no statutes violated. There are no industry standards, especially with wholesalers, that any wholesaler could have been shown to have ignored or violated. There's another thread in the BOI where a buyer of higher-end boids had a strong position regarding buying IBD infected animals, and was initially trumpeting how they were going to pursue all legal recourse. I sympathized fully with the buyer's plight, no legal action materialized, and the buyer lost all. That's reality. Show me one successful IBD civil case, pending or otherwise.

In Allen’s case it means that no snakes leave or enter his facility until they are determined free of IBD. How to do it if he is not willing to test (or can’t because or impracticality or expense)? Simply by waiting; it may take months or maybe years but wait until enough time has elapsed and no animals die with symptoms of the disease. If any animal dies within that period, histopathology should be performed to rule out IBD.

When you fill in the dollar values, which were not, this is currently impractical with a low-end wholesaler. Allen, and others in his situation, may have to give up the thoughts of being a low-end wholesaler, retailer of medium-priced animals, and high-end producer, all at the same time. Low-end wholesalers are an open door to IBD, and all the risks and stigmas that come with it. There's not one out there currently operating in the low-end with adequate protocols in place to legitimately identify and eliminate IBD in their animals. As current market conditions are, to do so is to price oneself out of the market. I do think that, with time, certain wholesalers will be able to establish themselves with better quarantine procedures, and the ability to hold BP's in a 3-4 month time-quarantine. Buyer's such as Petco, etc, will eventually demand it, and inspect their suppliers t insure such.

The boid industry at all levels is going to evolve with IBD regardless of my opinion, or this thread. So far, since my request, what has been put on the table are draconian measures for low-end wholesalers that are not practical if a low-end wholesaler is to remain in business. The "solutions" also seem to create a trip-wire where the criteria is "once IBD is found and is public" (my paraphrase), in an industry where otherwise IBD will run rampant in the low-end. Just IMO, but its unavoidable, and will have to get worse before it gets better, as the current competitive market does not mandate otherwise. My only saving grace is that I am not in the boid market as a buyer or seller.

 

[The BoidSmith]

My only saving grace is that I am not in the boid market as a buyer or seller.

Well, let's put it in terms that you are familiar with. What would you do if you find your collection of chameleons is plagued with coccidia? Animals are dieing left and right in your facility and customers are sending you back animals in zip lock bags. Would you continue to ship or would you halt all shipments until you control the problem? What would you suggest would be the "practical" solution then?

Regards.


Regards.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Dan,
Coccidia is a far more manageable problem, both with causes and remedies. When found in a chameleon, it is easily treated with Albon. Customer or acquaintance has coccidia in chameleons, I send them some Albon. I do not believe there is a comparable disease anywhere in the reptile industry to IBD. Pet-trade chameleons also do not have "low-end, high-end" components. FYI, a coccidia outbreak does not "kill chameleons left and right". As I mentioned, it is easy to diagnose and treat. It is not the kiss-of-death, or a scarlet letter.