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Allen Belcher / Big Daddy's Wholesale ... WARNING

Chameleon Company said:
Dan,
Coccidia is a far more manageable problem, both with causes and remedies. When found in a chameleon, it is easily treated with Albon. Customer or acquaintance has coccidia in chameleons, I send them some Albon. I do not believe there is a comparable disease anywhere in the reptile industry to IBD. Pet-trade chameleons also do not have "low-end, high-end" components. FYI, a coccidia outbreak does not "kill chameleons left and right". As I mentioned, it is easy to diagnose and treat. It is not the kiss-of-death, or a scarlet letter.
Wow, what an excellent sidestepping of the root of the question.

Way to go jim, another excellent wag there.

Let me try now.

IF there were a killer disease of chams out there and you found out you had it, what would YOU do?

And telling me you don't know because you aren't faced with that problem is really somewhat cowardly; we already know you're not faced with it.

The thing is, what, were you to discover you had, let's say Cham IBD, would YOU do?
 
Wes,
Being referred to as "cowardly" buy you is worthy of a big smile :). Aside from that, I answered the hypothetical to my heart's desire earlier. My points otherwise were that the solutions profferred did not address the greater problem in the industry, particularly in the low-end market, IMHO. If an when an IBD type of plague rears its head in the chameleon market, I will surely have to deal with it.
Figured by now you would have had found someone to "kiss the boo-boo" and make it better ! Guess not though, as it seems to still hurt ! Damn, was an even better ass-whooping than I thought !
 
Dan,
Coccidia is a far more manageable problem, both with causes and remedies. When found in a chameleon, it is easily treated with Albon. Customer or acquaintance has coccidia in chameleons, I send them some Albon. I do not believe there is a comparable disease anywhere in the reptile industry to IBD. Pet-trade chameleons also do not have "low-end, high-end" components. FYI, a coccidia outbreak does not "kill chameleons left and right". As I mentioned, it is easy to diagnose and treat. It is not the kiss-of-death, or a scarlet letter.

Jim,

I’m well aware of what coccidia are, their life cycle, and how one treats them. If left untreatedcoccidia can and will kill chameleons, and you know it. The animals will loose weight and eventually die. But you didn’t answer my question or offer a solution to the problem.

You discover that you have coccidia in your colony, they are heavily infested but you don’t know which animals are affected. Treatment has to be administered at least twice to be able to control the parasite cycle. Now my question can be answered with a yes or no. Would you continue to ship animals or would you stop selling and shipping until you know you have everything under control?

Regards
 
Chameleon Company said:
All just IMHO.



I respectfully disagree. You would have a lawsuit that would have to show negligence on the seller's part. "Buyer beware" is still rule number #1 where there are no statutes violated. There are no industry standards, especially with wholesalers, that any wholesaler could have been shown to have ignored or violated. There's another thread in the BOI where a buyer of higher-end boids had a strong position regarding buying IBD infected animals, and was initially trumpeting how they were going to pursue all legal recourse. I sympathized fully with the buyer's plight, no legal action materialized, and the buyer lost all. That's reality. Show me one successful IBD civil case, pending or otherwise.



.

The original poster might have trouble proving negligence due to the difficulty in diagnosis, but now that "the Defendant" :rofl: is "on notice",the negligence case, in the event of a re-occurrence, is much easier.

And just because there has been no further discussion of legal action in the other thread does not mean it is not taking place,the first thing a good lawyer tells a client is to stop discussing the case with others....
 
Lloyd,
If and when we see even the first successful civil prosecution against IBD, I hope to take notice. So far, it has not happened. I am all ears if you would like to map out the legal argument. You may be a legal wiz Lloyd. Maybe not. I have an enormous legal background as well, and am not speaking as an outhouse attorney. To date, there have been "0" successful IBD cases prosecuted.

Dan, I already stated today in an earlier post what I thought I would do regarding IBD in boids, were I to be in that market. Otherwise, your premise is quite faulty. Here is your premise restated:

You discover that you have coccidia in your colony, they are heavily infested but you don’t know which animals are affected. Treatment has to be administered at least twice to be able to control the parasite cycle. Now my question can be answered with a yes or no. Would you continue to ship animals or would you stop selling and shipping until you know you have everything under control?

Sorry this is so difficult, but here's the facts. It is easy to test for coccidia, and I do it all the time. If I were in a momentary situation of knowing it was in my greenhouse, but for some reason not knowing where, I could remedy that ignorance in one afternoon. Wouldn't cost me $200-300 per test, and would have zero impact on my cost-of-production, and could be fixed quickly. As mentioned earlier, there is not a low-end aspect to chameleon import, CB'ing, etc. Secondly, you are wrong as to the treatment of coccidia in chameleons. Its not a "twice" event. Its daily for 5-7 days, with a double dose the first day. Panacur'ing for hookworms, etc, is a "twice" event, 2-3 weeks apart. and frankly pretty routine.

Dan, I outlined how I thought I would approach the IBD thing, were I a low-end boid vendor, in a post earlier today. Here it is again, cut and pasted, and without need of a flawed coccidia analogy:

Hearkening back to your asking what I would do Sammy. Its all conjecture, and I really can't give you an answer in all confidence, as it is easier said than done. It would depend on my existing set-up, the current status of my quarantine procedures, how well I could track the paths of the likely infected animals, and numbers crunching. A very bitter but necessary pill to swallow would be to halt the sale of animals. For how long, and the money spent in the interim to not only safeguard my remaining colony, but also re-establish customer credibility, I do not know. One angle that I would have to consider is whatever I thought the industry standard was for managing this disease. In Allen's case, he faces having to do things that other competitors do not now do, as they aren't wearing the scarlet letters yet. I think a part of my solution, were I to have a similar problem with chameleons, would be to include a section to my website, with all the documentation I could muster, as to what actions we took to minimize such medical problems from this point forward. Undoubtedly, I would also have to charge more for my chameleons, and hope that there's enough of a niche in the market for the peace-of-mind that I was charging for. Whatever the course of action, one would have to be aggressively pro-active. Allen has not been.

Maybe its just me, which is fine, and would not be the first time. But between two threads, and many hundreds of posts on the subject, while I have seen countless criticisms, I haven't seen much on solutions that seemed plausable. Just my warped point-of-view. In the meantime, wherever that view is from, I will hope to see a low-end vendor adopt the protocols suggested and succeed, and/or the successful prosecution of an IBD lawsuit. As you may have guessed, I will not be holding my breath.
 
Chameleon Company said:
Lloyd,
If and when we see even the first successful civil prosecution against IBD, I hope to take notice. So far, it has not happened. I am all ears if you would like to map out the legal argument. You may be a legal wiz Lloyd. Maybe not. I have an enormous legal background as well, and am not speaking as an outhouse attorney. To date, there have been "0" successful IBD cases prosecuted.

.

Have there been unsuccessful civil cases concerning IBD? If so, how many? Have there been ANY civil cases brought where it could be proven the seller know or should have know that his collection was infected before he sold animals?? BTW, I've already mapped out the legal argument in the last post, he is on notice of a problem in his collection, it is arguably negligent to sell under these circumstances.

Because, unless there is appellate law that no cause of action exists under these circumstances, the number or lack of successful cases means shit.There were no successful tobacco litigation cases for decades.....
 
The parallel is that past lack of success does not impact future success unless it is controlling precedent.Especially if you don't even know if such cases were attempted.

Do you have an answer to any of my questions?
 
Chameleon Company said:
I have an enormous legal background as well, and am not speaking as an outhouse attorney.

Getting arrested a lot does not qualify as having an enormous legal background, Jim..... :hehe:




Disclaimer: I have no knowledge of Jim's arrest record and the above post was made purely in jest.
 
One of the sad side effects of the "ignore" feature is that when others quote that person, I then am subjected to seeing it. I hate that.

That said, shall we stop arguing over who knows what about the law, and get back to the fact that Allen Belcher is still openly selling snakes, knowing that he has had IBD in his facility, and doesn't give a damn about the risk he could be putting unknowing customers' collections in?

Thanks.
 
Chameleon Company said:
In the meantime, wherever that view is from, I will hope to see a low-end vendor adopt the protocols suggested and succeed, and/or the successful prosecution of an IBD lawsuit. As you may have guessed, I will not be holding my breath.
An IBD lawsuit succeeding is a matter of time, almost certainly. It happened with big tobacco when they said it never would and convincing 12 "peers" on a jury that Allen knew or should have known that he had a problem and was negligent in handling is written all over this board in a a thread in which he has participated. Proving causation may be the only hurdle, but defending one such lawsuit, successful or not, may put the likes of Allen out of the wholesale business depending on whether he is insured and how deep his pockets are. The third element, after negligence and causation, is damages. Those would perhaps never be collected but it would put others on notice.

The fact that there is no industry standard leaves it open for a jury of 12 to determine. It would, however, be easy to find multiple experts for plaintiff's case, and only a paid whore would testify that what Allen has done was proper. Most jurors can easily see through such an "expert", at least that has been my experience. I'm guessing that the "preponderance of the evidence" (that is more likely than not) would be that Allen knew he had animals that might be infected and failed to take proper action. If this then caused the death or destruction of other animals then that's the case. The fact that it has not ever happened, and may not happen with this individual, does not mean that it will not happen, and have a "successful" outcome. After all, juries have awarded billions of dollars over silicone breast implants and they probably never caused any of the diseases that are alleged.

Bottom line, Allen would appear to be at legal risk whether he wins or loses, should such a case ever arise. Would you want to be "the guy who got sued in that IBD case"?

It is obviously not practical for every boid to be tested. And this is an "industry" that is almost certain never to have "universal standards" for any number of reasons. But in a case like this, where there is a documented case in one of his animals, and knowing what can happen, he needs to do something more than "business as usual" irrespective of whether there are such standards. Moral and ethical standards would dictate that, even absent any financial risk.
 
Cat_72 said:
One of the sad side effects of the "ignore" feature is that when others quote that person, I then am subjected to seeing it. I hate that.

That said, shall we stop arguing over who knows what about the law, and get back to the fact that Allen Belcher is still openly selling snakes, knowing that he has had IBD in his facility, and doesn't give a damn about the risk he could be putting unknowing customers' collections in?

Thanks.

Don't get your point at all, why is his potential legal liability for doing so not an issue? Otherwise, you are limited to saying "Bad Bad Allen", and hoping all of his potential customers read the BOI....
 
Jim O said:
An IBD lawsuit succeeding is a matter of time, almost certainly. It happened with big tobacco when they said it never would and convincing 12 "peers" on a jury that Allen knew or should have known that he had a problem and was negligent in handling is written all over this board in a a thread in which he has participated. Proving causation may be the only hurdle, but defending one such lawsuit, successful or not, may put the likes of Allen out of the wholesale business depending on whether he is insured and how deep his pockets are. The third element, after negligence and causation, is damages. Those would perhaps never be collected but it would put others on notice.

The fact that there is no industry standard leaves it open for a jury of 12 to determine. It would, however, be easy to find multiple experts for plaintiff's case, and only a paid whore would testify that what Allen has done was proper. Most jurors can easily see through such an "expert", at least that has been my experience. I'm guessing that the "preponderance of the evidence" (that is more likely than not) would be that Allen knew he had animals that might be infected and failed to take proper action. If this then caused the death or destruction of other animals then that's the case. The fact that it has not ever happened, and may not happen with this individual, does not mean that it will not happen, and have a "successful" outcome. After all, juries have awarded billions of dollars over silicone breast implants and they probably never caused any of the diseases that are alleged.

Bottom line, Allen would appear to be at legal risk whether he wins or loses, should such a case ever arise. Would you want to be "the guy who got sued in that IBD case"?

It is obviously not practical for every boid to be tested. And this is an "industry" that is almost certain never to have "universal standards" for any number of reasons. But in a case like this, where there is a documented case in one of his animals, and knowing what can happen, he needs to do something more than "business as usual" irrespective of whether there are such standards. Moral and ethical standards would dictate that, even absent any financial risk.


Good analysis, and much more than I was willing to type out on my day off. :shrug01:

Wanna be my law partner??? :thumbsup:
 
Jim,

I was just looking for a simple yes or no answer, but it's your prerrogative not to give one. One way or the other I'm pretty sure you wouldn't ship a chameleon, heat pack, and some Albon to any of your customers. Let's go back to the issue at hand, shall we? :)

Regards.
 
The BoidSmith said:
Jim,

I was just looking for a simple yes or no answer......

Dan.... and you really expected to get one?

Telemarketers dont even call this guy.... :D


Just some good natured ribbing, Jim.
 
So chamelon co...would you or have you bought any boids from allen? And say if you did, and the snake you bought from him killed your entire collection, would you just take it as " oh well, just another casualty of war"? I would like to know how you would go about the situation if it were on your hands, matter of fact i have a snake at my disposal that is awaiting the test results back, that also was in the cage that my snake was in, and bought from tan business card allen ( the one that died from IBD)...i would be more than happy to send you the snake, free of charge will you accept? Lay out your address and its yours buddy, then you can tell ME how you feel on the subject. Oh by the way...where the hell has your boy allen been? He sent me a E-mail saying that he had multiple snakes tested...i would damn sure like to know the REAL results, he hasnt been back to update us, and it has been way more than the 10 days he requested of me????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
 
Sammy,
So the secret is out about the telemarketers :).

As for all the various legal opinions, we'll just have to reflect on the case-law once there is some, and agree do disagree until then. Too many BOI attorneys once again.
 
Lloyd Heilbrunn said:
Don't get your point at all, why is his potential legal liability for doing so not an issue? Otherwise, you are limited to saying "Bad Bad Allen", and hoping all of his potential customers read the BOI....

Obviously you didn't understand my point Lloyd, lol....and I probably didn't explain it well, I didn't want to water down the main idea of this post any further. I too agree that there is bound to be a case eventually regarding IBD, and I don't believe it would be *that* difficult to prove some sort of liability when someone such as Allen is fully aware of the problems he may be passing along to others. I just get tired of certain folks that seem to turn every thread they join into a pissing match about I know more than you, and having to make a half-page long post to spin their way around questions that could have been answered with a simple yes or no.....and detract from the real purpose of the thread. And, of course, that even though I put them on ignore, I still have to see it when people keep quoting him, lol.

I just wanted to get back to the REAL situation at hand, in other words.
 
Of course, despite the reasoned discussion that some of us thought we were having Lloyd, Cat is the keeper of the REAL situation ! Time to reach for the hip-waders again.
 
Lloyd,
While out in the greenhouse, another thought brought a laugh to me. This thread is a gargantuan 800+ posts long, and dates back to well before Airtixx's problems with Allen and IBD. When Airtixx first came to the BOI with his concerns, he did his homework, found this thread, and resurrected it with his problem. Seems reasonable.
After a few days, some of the posters in this episode suggested that Airtixx start a new thread about Allen and IBD, as this thread admittedly had so much baggage, and a newcomer would have a harder time getting "caught up". Made sense to me as well. Airtixx did that, and the new thread grew to over 80 posts. Easily found and accessed again, as its still on the BOI front page. For whatever reason, the IBD complainants are now back in this thread, and in Cat's case, apparently upset that we would discuss the legal concerns of IBD here, and once again, avoid the REAL issue.
Tell you what, if you want to, lets resurrect the "other" REAL IBD thread about Allen, and recreate the concerns there. Don't know if we can do it without being threatened with having dead snakes shipped to us, or being told that we have strayed from the REAL issue, but at least we will have given them back the sandbox that they now want :D ! I can drop in on my computer every hour or two, and just maybe we can keep it civil !
 
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