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Bad Guy Andrew Hermes of Arizona Tortoise Compound

I believe a Law suit would stand, does not matter if ATC was acting as a 3rd party. They made the transaction. The box was shipped from them, there for they are responsible. According to there terms they promise alive arrival,unless there is a issue from the shipping agent. From what I read there was not late arrival on this tortoise, so yes I would say from what is written there is a 75% chance a suit could be won. Not to mention the fact ATC are you Certified to ship live animals Through UPS?? If your not witch you have to be then you are in the wrong. UPS does not unpack a box and repack it, that does not happen. I hope the Erik took pics of everything, this is sad on Both parts But ATC should make up for loss... Good Luck To both party's, I won't be doing business with ATC and will advise of this issue to my local people. That is to big of loss just to have nothing done about it.....
 
Since my name has been used several times here with inferences which are not exactly correct, I wish to state some facts for the record:

1) Adult Radiated Tortoises (and other large tortoises as well) can urinate VERY copious amounts and do so frequently when stressed (IE, simply when picked up or when placed in a box to be shipped, etc.). Therefore it is an absolute necessity to ship an adult Radiated Tortoise in a totally watertight shipping container. As some other posters here have noted, this means a solid 5 sided Styrofoam cooler with a lid fitted inside a cardboard outer box such as those used to ship tropical fish. It DOES NOT mean 6 separate flat pieces of Styrofoam laid inside a cardboard box. There is NO seal whatsoever in that situation, and any liquid originating in that type of Styrofoam lined shipping box will readily leak out. Wooden crates for large tortoises are supposed to be watertight as well (if used for shipping via Delta Airlines, and probably others as well), but wooden boxes will leak somewhat unless the seams are sealed. Wooden boxes, however will not fall apart when they get wet the way cardboard does. No one can blame UPS here for trying to keep the original incorrectly used box from falling apart and having the contents lost in transit. They were simply doing what they were supposed to do by getting the box to its destination in one piece. They had no idea there was a live animal in it, since it had no air holes and wasn't marked as a "LIVE ANIMAL" so that they would accept it for shipment. There really can be no doubt that the delay was caused by the box beginning to fall apart in transit which had to be remedied before its journey could continue. IMPROPER PACKAGING cost this tortoise its life, NOT the carrier delays which were necessitated by it.

2) That being said, I personally will not use ANY overnight shipping methods regardless of the carrier involved unless at the buyer's insistence, and then I inform the buyer that doing so is absolutely and totally done at the buyer's sole risk because of the many bad experiences I have had personally or have heard about from others over the years with FEDEX, UPS, DHL, etc. Additionally, I feel that just a few hours spent in a box is a lot less stressful to the animals than 14-24 hours spent that way. Also, I have had a UPS account for my business since the 1980's and asked them several times over the years whether I could ship reptiles via UPS. I was told that it was against their regulations to ship live animals AND THEREFORE their planes have no pressurized and heated cargo areas. They also told me that they randomly X-rayed packages, and that if they detected any live animals in them, the shipper of same was banned from using UPS for life. Here is yet another caveat for shippers in colder areas: when I lived in CT, I frequently visited the airport very early in the mornings to ship various animals. There I observed that many of the packages waiting to be loaded onto the UPS planes were left sitting (in open sided carts and other containers) outside on the tarmac all night. We often had nights of zero and below in the winter, and the boxes in the carts often had frost on them at 4-5 AM. Not something I would do to my tortoises, even with heat packs in the box.

3) The tortoise which Erik sent to Andrew and "the breeder" was raised by me and was in 100% perfect condition when it was sent to Erik by me a few months before this debacle unfolded. Erik wanted me to send it to him via FEDEX, but I refused to do so, and he arranged to have his father go to the airport and pick up the box from Delta Airlines. The same thing could have been the case here had the seller been more conscientious. Like others here, I find it hard to believe that animal died in a week, BUT it was not used to the intense AZ heat and sun, and could easily have perished from overheating if put directly outside and not watched carefully until it got accustomed to its new environment. That would be the fault of "the breeder". Personally, if I had an animal die after such a short time, I would have a necropsy done so I would know what killed it. Where are the necropsy results to prove its demise?
Hi All,

I have received emails from both involved parties in response to my post of 9 November 2011and I wish to pass on their pertinent comments so any interested readers can be informed of possible errors stated in it.

Andrew tells me that his UPS account DOES allow him to ship live animals, and therefore the original package DID have both a LIVE label and air holes. He added that he was told that his original shipping box was not put in the plastic bag until the second day.

Erik said that he does not recall asking me to ship my tortoises to him via FEDEX or UPS.

I apologize for any misleading statements.

Bill Zovickian
 
UPS does ship tortoises. However, as mentioned in my previous posting they do not ship any endangered species. This includes Radiateds!!
Here is a link to their website, http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/res...atened+Species.
It clearly states "In addition to the Prohibited Live Animals list provided here, any live animal that is an Endangered Species is prohibited by UPS and will not be accepted for transportation".
 
There is a typo in my post above. The date stated should be 9 November 2013, not 2011. Sorry.

Bill Z
 
I and no one I deal with will ever deal with you after those comments ATC! Your wrong, UPS is not going to repack a box. Company's as supposed professional as yours don't act like this. I also know someone you buy Sulcata's from I am going to try and put stop to that. You are wrong and just don't want to make it right.
 
Hi All,

I have received emails from both involved parties in response to my post of 9 November 2011and I wish to pass on their pertinent comments so any interested readers can be informed of possible errors stated in it.

Andrew tells me that his UPS account DOES allow him to ship live animals, and therefore the original package DID have both a LIVE label and air holes. He added that he was told that his original shipping box was not put in the plastic bag until the second day.

Erik said that he does not recall asking me to ship my tortoises to him via FEDEX or UPS.

I apologize for any misleading statements.

Bill Zovickian

I'm sorry but I just don't believe the tortoise wasn't put i plastic until the second day. If the box didn't fall apart what was the reason for the delay? The box obviously had the label on it with the correct destination since it did eventually arrive there. I really think Andrew is probably generally a good guy with nice animals, but it bothers me that he won't take responsibility in this situation. Mistakes happen and you need to make things right when things go wrong even if it hurts a little.
 
I'm sorry but I just don't believe the tortoise wasn't put i plastic until the second day.

Do you have specific evidence or information that leads you to this disbelief?

If the box didn't fall apart what was the reason for the delay?

Not sure, but I have experienced delays with received packages and sent packages for a total of two or three occasions. The boxes had no losses of structural integrity and the animals managed to arrive safely, thankfully, despite said delays. I would not want to ascribe causality to a singular factor and decide there could only be one possible factor that could be connected if I had no data to support my stance.

I feel bad for the deceased animals and for the two/three parties involved. I hope to someday have some involvement with radiata so I can expand my history of success beyond the species I currently keep or have kept in the past. Reading that such animals perished, however they perished, saddens me.
 
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205175

ATC is going around bumping all of their old good guy threads in Im assuming a desperate attempt to make themselves look better and make others forget that this thread exists. Nice of ATC to respond to a thread thats 2-3 years old but wont take the time to respond to this detrimental issue. Good luck guys! Youre sure showing your true colors!
 
Do you have specific evidence or information that leads you to this disbelief?



Not sure, but I have experienced delays with received packages and sent packages for a total of two or three occasions. The boxes had no losses of structural integrity and the animals managed to arrive safely, thankfully, despite said delays. I would not want to ascribe causality to a singular factor and decide there could only be one possible factor that could be connected if I had no data to support my stance.

The box is picked up with the bottom broken out and put in a plastic bag so the delay was caused by...being misplaced....sent to the wrong place....some other unforeseen circumstance? I'm sorry 1+1=2 not 3,4,or 5. And Andrew has used just about every excuse in the book to try to get out of responsibility for paying the OP back for his loss, why should I believe he was really told the animal was put in a bag the second day. The simplest explanation is the box fell apart in normal transit the first day was sent to their problem package center (thus the delay), put in plastic, then sent to it's final destination. I would ask you why you would come up with a bunch of alternative explanations with no data to support them when they are at best a reach. He owes this guy a bunch of money and is trying to get out of paying it, period!
 
The box is picked up with the bottom broken out and put in a plastic bag so the delay was caused by...being misplaced....sent to the wrong place....some other unforeseen circumstance? I'm sorry 1+1=2 not 3,4,or 5. And Andrew has used just about every excuse in the book to try to get out of responsibility for paying the OP back for his loss, why should I believe he was really told the animal was put in a bag the second day. The simplest explanation is the box fell apart in normal transit the first day was sent to their problem package center (thus the delay), put in plastic, then sent to it's final destination. I would ask you why you would come up with a bunch of alternative explanations with no data to support them when they are at best a reach. He owes this guy a bunch of money and is trying to get out of paying it, period!

Have I

come up with a bunch of alternative explanations with no data to support them

?
 
Surely the OP and/or Andrew could get those answers/details from UPS, yes?

Maybe, maybe not. In the example of my Delta Dash shipment that arrived after 2 days and was sent all over the country (literally) I never got an explanation even after I asked for one. Don't know if UPS is any different, but companies tend to play dumb when they might get dragged into something messy.

Also, regardless of how the tortoise died in transit, it did die. When I ship an animal, I reimburse for losses regardless who was at fault. Most reputable businesses and breeders do. I recently had a spider arrive DOA from LLLReptile and it was clearly because of Fedex tossing the box around. I was credited for the loss. I have a feeling the refusal to make the OP whole is because we are talking about an expensive Radiated instead of an inexpensive imported Russian. I understand things are tight these days but business is business. If you can't stand behind what you sell, get out of the business.
 
Then if we do not know, why fabricate it?

I do not reimburse for losses "regardless [of] who was at fault". I have conditions. I guarantee live arrival if the recipient is present to receive at the time of delivery or its attempt by the carrier's agent. If that effort is made, the animal is dead, and I am furnished photographic evidence within an hour of arrival/receipt time, I would reimburse for any charges the buyer has paid me. I may, depending on the situation, require the corpse sent back at my expense for examination purposes, but it would depend and is my call (again, at my expense). If, say, a person is not home to receive, does not contact me in the specified time with the expected evidence, or something like that, then they have voided the terms. If a buyer has a hot porch and they do not answer the door or do not track and the package is left out to cook, I am not going to reimburse "regardless [of] who was at fault" because that would be the buyer's mistake. If the buyer is compliant per my terms, then I will. If a buyer elected to delay receipt for convenience and the result was a DOA, I would in no way find that acceptable. Not saying that happened here. Just giving an example.
 
I was specifically talking about carrier error if you read my post. Of course no one is going to reimburse someone for not complying with TOS. In this case the ONLY way the OP could be responsible is if that animal was put in the bag within about a half hour to an hour of the UPS office opening. There's fabricating and there's reaching a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence. No one has disputed the boxes condition and the tortoise being dead in a plastic bag. Andrew improperly packaged it. Whether the animal died as a result of a tumble out of the box or being encased in plastic, it died because of the packaging. Why don't I believe Andrew was told when the tortoise was put in the plastic? Because he's played the carrier error card, the not my animal card, the your animal also died card (after the OP demanded his cash), and made an offer of future hatchlings because he doesn't have the cash. He is doing everything possible to not be out money on this deal. Regardless of it being a favor for a friend he took responsibilty for the deal when he listed the animal and shipped it. His friend stiffed him, now it's up to him. His reputation on the line. And as was brought up earlier, was it even legal for him to ship a Radiated that wasn't actually his across state lines? And what about UPS restriction on endangered species? You're not going to convince me that an innocent person is being crucified here.
 
I was specifically talking about carrier error if you read my post. Of course no one is going to reimburse someone for not complying with TOS. In this case the ONLY way the OP could be responsible is if that animal was put in the bag within about a half hour to an hour of the UPS office opening. There's fabricating and there's reaching a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence. No one has disputed the boxes condition and the tortoise being dead in a plastic bag. Andrew improperly packaged it. Whether the animal died as a result of a tumble out of the box or being encased in plastic, it died because of the packaging. Why don't I believe Andrew was told when the tortoise was put in the plastic? Because he's played the carrier error card, the not my animal card, the your animal also died card (after the OP demanded his cash), and made an offer of future hatchlings because he doesn't have the cash. He is doing everything possible to not be out money on this deal. Regardless of it being a favor for a friend he took responsibilty for the deal when he listed the animal and shipped it. His friend stiffed him, now it's up to him. His reputation on the line. And as was brought up earlier, was it even legal for him to ship a Radiated that wasn't actually his across state lines? And what about UPS restriction on endangered species? You're not going to convince me that an innocent person is being crucified here.

I apologize if I misread your post in any way.

In his TOS, ATC mentions carrier error as a non-guaranteed matter if I remember correctly (I could be incorrect, but I thought that was stated in them). I do not, but that is immaterial. So is it a matter of course when I stick to my terms? Is it a matter of course when others stick to theirs that may differ from mine?

I thought the OP wanted the tortoise and his cash (naturally; I would want that as well). If so, and if the tortoise was dead, the tortoise could not be returned. The cash was a smaller part of the transaction relative to the animal (still plenty relevant, but smaller). In a situation where Andrew is no longer the holder of the cash or the tortoise, what can he offer? He is unable to satisfy all people now given what has been shared with a simple return to all parties. Dead tortoises cannot be brought back. Cash not in his possession may prove less easy to return. The at cost (free) option for the hatchlings is an avenue he suggested. Does this satisfy on an emotional or project level? I sincerely doubt it. The situation seems like a sandwich of feces for all parties. Can it eventually satisfy on a monetary value level? Yes. Does ATC lose profit/monetary value by making that offer? You bet. Hatchlings are not "nothing". After you have your breeding groups set up, the costs of hatching/raising a radiata versus a regular old little baby sulcata are effectively the same. My ivory babies cost me no more to feed or house than my hets. The profit difference, however, is massive. If I have to give those away in trade for correcting a loss, that means many dollars of profit that will not come in. Cost, however, to me, will be the same. The return on my investment, for that period of time, is...impaired. So he offered that because ATC had that to offer. Could they have perhaps worked something else out? Maybe, but it seems like the communication between the parties posting here has since been dissolved.

I am not sure I see the timeline as you do. It was delivered at ~5pm the day after it was supposed to, yes? We know it was bagged roughly a half-hour to an hour before the office opened from what information that has been presented? Is it possible that it was dead when the office opened? Unless we have more information, yes. Is it possible that it was alive when the office opened? Unless we have more information, yes. Are all activities within a day other than the terminal (no pun intended) delivery achieved before the office opens? I have no knowledge either way and assume nothing regarding that so as not to be unfair.

I cannot speak to the legalities of it, as I do not yet possess a CBW permit and pretty much limited my options to 1) applying for it to purchase an out-of-state radiata or 2) finding a radiata in my state of residence, so I will not know as extensively as others. From what I am reading, I do not know if this situation falls into a transfer of ownership and a subsequent trading/rebalancing of debts or facilitation of an un-owned animal (the latter of which seems to be illegal from what I am reading and the former of which might be not depending on how that is defined; I do not know or am not sure).

What about the UPS restriction on endangered species? If it is a violation of their terms, then that is an issue between ATC and UPS. Not a legality issue. Perhaps it was something ATC was not even aware of and perhaps he did know, but I do not know what he knew. It is not like they bagged it because , hey, endangered species are against their terms. This ia an issue and it should be discussed, but I do not find it as pertinent to the issue between the OP and ATC because I am unable to see how that influenced their problems with each other.
 
I was oferred radiated tortoise hatchlings at his cost ($800 each I think) that I could purchase and resell for a profit so that I could recoup my loss that way. I was never oferred free radiated tortouse hatchlings. Just a point of clarification.
 
Ah, okay. I was thinking costs along the lines of production since we were talking about hatchlings. Reselling ones not home-grown is very different.
 
I hate seeing issues like this. Especially with a great guy like Andrew. I have known him for 6+ years now. Sold many tortoises from him. Bought many tortoises from him. Never received any sort of negative experience from him. Unfortunately in incidences like stated in OP, things happen. However I do feel this incident was very unfortunate and in such a small percentage of error to of occurred from him.

I am sorry this happened to you. It is unfortunate indeed. But still in my opinion Andrew is a great guy. That upholds exemplary business techniques, quality in product and animals, and clerical precise communicative abilities.
 
I hate seeing issues like this. Especially with a great guy like Andrew. I have known him for 6+ years now. Sold many tortoises from him. Bought many tortoises from him. Never received any sort of negative experience from him. Unfortunately in incidences like stated in OP, things happen. However I do feel this incident was very unfortunate and in such a small percentage of error to of occurred from him.

I am sorry this happened to you. It is unfortunate indeed. But still in my opinion Andrew is a great guy. That upholds exemplary business techniques, quality in product and animals, and clerical precise communicative abilities.

That is an excellent commercial, now put yourself in the OP's shoes and look how it sounds. "Exemplary business techniques"???
 
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