Anniversary of paid membership requirement for posting classifieds....

[WebSlave]

We passed the anniversary mark on my implementing the paid membership requirement on posting classified ads on this site as of 03/06/08, so I felt a review on how that has impacted this site is in order. As such, I looked at the stats for new posts on this site and here's what I am seeing over the last two years.

These are new posts per month from January, 2006 thru February, 2008:

And here's the chart for new thread starts for the same time period:

In my shoes, how would you interpret what you are seeing here? There is a dramatic and obvious drop in participation, if we assume that new posts and new threads are a relative measure of how active members are participating on this site. Although I cannot show the stats on a monthly basis, I do recall that daily visits by registered members were hitting around the 1,300 mark, whereas today, we barely reach past the 850 mark.

Yeah, paid memberships are definitely up, but with the other statistics in mind, I don't see that being a continuing, much less growing, trend. With overall participation noticeably DROPPING, the incentive for paid memberships to take advantage of posting classified ads here will quite likely be much reduced pretty shortly.

Obviously the big drop came right after I put in the requirement for paid memberships in order to post classifieds at the beginning of March, 2007.

Way back when this paid requirement for posting ads was first suggested, I strongly resisted implementing it, since I felt it would be a mistake. Yet I felt I was being hard headed by not at least giving it a shot and take the advice that some were offering me, so I gave it a whirl to see how well it would work out. I believe the above statistics graphs pretty much paint the picture, without my further comment about the situation.

But, of course, the question hangs in the air about what I should do about this NOW.

 

[Gary O]

To be honest bro.

I think it is more then just the paid classifieds. there are other factors.

When was the rules kinda lifted in the BOI? Where people could basicly have a bit more freedom in calling names?

When was the pay to be a mod brought to the site?

I think the pay to be a mod may have something to do with it. As we have seen some mods use this power to just be well mean. They are not thinking about the site when they mod they are thinking about themselves. This could scare some off. But I do not remember when it was started so I can not say this is just it. But just becuase drop off did not start right when this was started does not mean it was not a factor. It would have taken time to come about.

And at shows when I bring up the BOI to customers I want to say about 50% of them say the BOI is not the same. Some get into details and others seem to just have something up their butts you know. The number one complaint from the ones that seem to care is. Some seem to get away with more then others. and you have to read through pages of grade school posts to get to the meat. I take this as all the name calling. Sure a liar should be called a liar. And a thief a thief. But I think you know what I am talking about.

I am not saying that paid classifieds is not effecting the site. It probably is but also I do not think it is the only factor.

Maybe talk to your super mods in a redoing of the BOI. Bring it back to what it once was. I could offer my ideas but I do not think they would all work 100% lol.

Also maybe get simple again with the other forums?

I come here and hit new posts. I try to add to things I know and care about. And try my best to stay out of the BS as I am just to tired to keep up with it anymore lol.

I bet this post did not even help lol

 

[norsmis]

Rich, I think Gary is on to something here. Yes I believe the BOI should be a little more relaxed on the rules but all out name calling attacks should not be allowed. I too have talked to many people at shows and through email and the opinions seem to be the same as what Gary posted above. Some people feel almost scared to post anything here because of the attacks.
I will say I would not want your job on this website. I cant imagine the headaches you have trying to make things "enjoyable" for everyone. I can say I am here to help in any way I can. I do like this site and want to see it continue.

 

[WebSlave]

To be honest bro.

I think it is more then just the paid classifieds. there are other factors.

When was the rules kinda lifted in the BOI? Where people could basicly have a bit more freedom in calling names?

That took place on June 26, 2006, at the same time I lifted the paid membership requirement for posting on the BOI. I felt that since there were no longer any controls in place for keeping false registrations out of the BOI, then neither should there be any real concern about the topic matter, neither. The warning point rules were SUBSTANTIALLY cut back at that time.

When was the pay to be a mod brought to the site?

I believe it was sometime around the end of January, 2007. But I honestly don't think it had all that much impact, since I doubt most members even knew about it.

I think the pay to be a mod may have something to do with it. As we have seen some mods use this power to just be well mean. They are not thinking about the site when they mod they are thinking about themselves. This could scare some off. But I do not remember when it was started so I can not say this is just it. But just becuase drop off did not start right when this was started does not mean it was not a factor. It would have taken time to come about.

Perhaps, but I kind of doubt it. As mentioned above, I doubt most members even knew about it being implemented. Secondly, while looking over the moderator log, it appears that most WS mods are not even using it anyway, so it is having negligible impact, I believe. Truth of the matter is, that I am looking over the list of current mods on this system in preparation for an upgrade (as soon as the newest version of vBulletin goes GOLD), and I seriously doubt I will pay to have the WS mod program reprogrammed into the new version. The goal of that project to have more people pitching in to help enforce the rules just fizzled out. I guess most people got tired of the flack they got with every warning point they issued to another member. People DO want rules, but no one really wants the crap associated with being the one to enforce them. So perhaps the project did have one benefit in that more people here now know what crap myself and the site mods have been going through all along with trying to force some kind of structure and reasonableness onto this site.

And at shows when I bring up the BOI to customers I want to say about 50% of them say the BOI is not the same. Some get into details and others seem to just have something up their butts you know. The number one complaint from the ones that seem to care is. Some seem to get away with more then others. and you have to read through pages of grade school posts to get to the meat. I take this as all the name calling. Sure a liar should be called a liar. And a thief a thief. But I think you know what I am talking about.

The old archives to the original BOI sites (except for one where the database got lost and I have to find the backup file...) are still here, and from what I can remember, the BOI has ALWAYS been pretty rough and tumble. So when someone says the BOI is "not the same", not the same as what or when?

As for cutting out the name calling, you might recall that I went through a phase trying to do just that and got slapped around pretty harshly by people trying to split hairs on what should be on one side of the line and what on the other. I even had people resorting to calling people names in other languages, claiming that it was exempt because that name was not specifically listed. And then on the other hand, I had people whining that one word someone else used that did not get warned was just as bad as the word THEY used that DID get them a warning. It was a ROYAL pain in the ass.

Generally speaking, when most people say they want the rules strictly enforced, they normally mean by THEIR definition and against the other guy, not them. Which, of course, is impossible to do.

I am not saying that paid classifieds is not effecting the site. It probably is but also I do not think it is the only factor.

Perhaps not, but I'm running out of ideas on what to try here. About the only two things I can think of that I haven't tried yet is to make EVERYONE a mod or have NO mods here. Exact opposites, but obvious answers since trying to find a middle ground just has not worked. The WS Mod program was what I thought would be a pretty good middle ground solution, since those with enough interest could help effect a change here. But obviously the burden is too heavy, which I can fully understand.

Maybe talk to your super mods in a redoing of the BOI. Bring it back to what it once was. I could offer my ideas but I do not think they would all work 100% lol.

At what point in time would the BOI be as it "once was"? And how many different opinions do you think you will get about which period was the *best*?

The idea behind the BOI, I thought, was pretty simplistic. Expose the bad guys so people would know who to avoid. Shine the light on the good guys so people would know who to go to. Simple? Seems that the line between good guy and bad guy is not all that cut and dried. Plus it is not a permanent label at all. How many people have we seen that were initially labelled as good guys later on turn BAD?

Also maybe get simple again with the other forums?

Yes, I have been considering that. Perhaps consolidating all snake discussion forums into a single General Snake Discussion Forum, and the like. Certainly the traffic levels in the discussion forums don't warrant the separations there. Which is really the way I had it when I first set up HerpWantAds, the predecessor to FaunaClassifieds. Maybe I even had it that way initially in FaunaClassifieds as well.....
I come here and hit new posts. I try to add to things I know and care about. And try my best to stay out of the BS as I am just to tired to keep up with it anymore lol.

I bet this post did not even help lol

Honestly, I've been trying to figure out the perfect way to run this site for so long that it should be obvious by now that there just IS no way to do it. Perhaps the combination of the BOI with the rest of the site is just too much of a conflict. People want to drag the BOI all throughout the rest of the site and it puts a combative edge in all discussions. Perhaps that was a terminal mistake..... Perhaps nothing will help at this point.

 

[Jim O]

Rich,

One can analyze this in many different ways. One thing that *some* people are saying is that forums by themselves are not as popular as they once were. There are other ways to get and exchange information, specifically from CMS systems that include articles, reviews, blogs, etc. Competition from other sites may be a factor as well.

Another fact is that the economy has slowed, debt has increased, home equity is down, and discretionary budgets are squeezed by the increased costs of gas, food, and heating oil. Perhaps as a result high end reptiles, the type often showcased here, are not moving as quickly as before (no pun intended).

On the other hand, coincidences are rare, and so this is still likely not completely a coincidence. I'm sure that someone with a knowledge of SQL and access to you database can tell you how much of the drop has been in the classifieds, in each forum, etc. with a few simple queries. That would really be useful information.

Now the big question really is, what do you, Rich Zuchowski, want to get out of this site? Is it income? If so, how much, if any, has that suffered? If not much then a smaller forum is easier to manage. Obviously page impressions must be down, but I'm guessing that most link clicks are made by guests and not members. It seems that you have no shortage of directly sold banners and text links which are paid on a daily or monthly basis irrespective of page impressions and clicks. If so, is that income down? I ask these questions for you to ask yourself, not to answer here publicly of course. If income is more or less unchanged, and the site is smaller, then you need less Excedrin!

If what you want is a bigger, busier site, it is going to require some real involvement on your part. Leaving a business on autopilot is a sure way for that business to fail. You have made clear that you want less and less to do with this site, but you haven't brought in a "leader". None of the site mods have been given that mantle by you, and my guess is that none would want it unless they were being paid to do it. Too many headaches in that, as well you know!

Another factor may be the outdated forum software. I know upgrading is a huge, costly hassle but vBulletin 3.5 has been out for a few years, 3.6 for maybe two years, and 3.7 is in beta now with a release candidate likely to be out in a couple of weeks. I would *guess* that 4.0 is likely a year or more away. Can you wait that long? The added functionality is something that people like. When I go to a new site, and I see an outdated software version, I am less likely to register and post. This is not only about the bells and whistles but I wonder about the commitment of the webmaster. Are new registrations down in proportion to posts? I know that on the sites that I run, many new members are active for a few weeks or months and move on. Maybe they show up again 6-12 months later, maybe they don't. One site that I helped out upgrading from vBulletin 2.x(!) to 3.68 has seen a substantial increase in posting and registrations. Just another thought of course.

The bottom line is that there will be no "quick fix". Negative growth requires major changes, not tweaks. So that brings back the question, what do you, Rich Zuchowski, want out of this site? And then what resources, personal and financial, are you willing to put into it?

 

[WebSlave]

Yes, an upgrade is in the plans, but not until version 3.7 goes Gold. It would be foolish not to wait for that at this point. I just need to analyze all the mods done on this version and decide which are worth paying for to have redone in the new software.

As for what I really want out of this site, heck, I don't know. That changes periodically. I actually think income is up, but the reduction in participation really concerns me. It makes me think I am doing something wrong that needs to be fixed before things become terminal. I do try to keep tabs on such things.......

When I looked at the graphs and noted the abrupt downturn coinciding with the paid membership requirement for posting classified ads, it is difficult NOT to think that this may be a primary cause. Yes, it did cut out the spam taking place there, but the spammers just chose other targets on this site afterwards. Yeah, I think the price is very reasonable, but the evidence points to the thinking that many people believe that if they can't get the service for free, then they will just go elsewhere where they can. As long as traffic is high enough that prospective members will think paying the fee is worthwhile, the site would recover from the temporary slump. The trick is figuring out if it IS a temporary slump, or a spiraling down into oblivion instead.

A crystal ball sure would be nice to have sometimes.....

Oh, back to what I want out of this site, today. I want to feel gratified that it is useful to people, I guess. I would like to think that eventually I can drop my reptile business when the physical demands become greater than my wife and I can put into it, and make a modest living off of other means which include what has been built here. I'm 57 years old and have to be realistic about how long my health will allow me to do everything I am trying to do these days....

 

[akaangela]

Rich, I don't have any good advice, but I do want you to know there are many many people who use and enjoy your site. One reason I have not posted a lot is because of the search function. I look up stuff before I post. Most of the time I find the information I need! Also the BIO is something that has not only helped me but a lot of others.

You want to feel like the forums are useful. They ARE! I have been enjoying this forum for a long time. The only reason I have not contributed this year was three fold. 1. hospital bills 2. I have not wanted, needed to sell anything. (I am trying NOT to look at the classifieds I cant afford any more snakes ) 3. since the $10 option was taken away I figured I would just wait till I needed to sell or I was able to save enough for the 25.

Anyway. You are doing a great job.

Sorry for rambling

 

[The BoidSmith]

Rich,

Yes, the paid advertisement is a possibility but I tend to think of an explanation more along the lines of Jim's thoughts. There are several extraneous sources of variability confounding the interpretation of the graphs.

A vission I would have for this site is not necessarily something huge (although that may interfere with your economic aspirations) but something respected by peers because the way people conduct themselves in here, and the quality of the information.

There have been (and still are) individuals that are highly detrimental to this site. Some forum moderators have been using their position for subliminal advertising. People are not dumb, they can see through that. Others have clear conflicts of interest, and incurr in cyberbullying of individuals that are clearly their competition. This is also perceived by the public.

In MHO it's not that much about charging for using this site as it is about the distasteful crudeness of some of the participants. Most people have enough with their daily problems to come to a site where 80% of what they read is negativity towards other members and/or themselves.

In all honesty and looking at the big picture (beyond Fauna) one should feel good that people try to stay away of this kind of behavior. The problem is that as the site scares some former good contributors away, at the same time it "concentrates" the rest.

You want to improve traffic? Give more power to your "super" moderators and have them crank the zero tollerance level up a notch. Sorry, but for some people that's the only solution. In short as much as I hate to say this the site needs to gain its respect back again, and IMHO the BOI is the place to start as it is where the main problem lies.

JMO

 

[Stardust]

In thinking on whether this site has dropped because of the price tacked on for ads, I just do not think so.
I tend to agree with Dan. The question I have is when the stricter rules were inforced were there more people for it and just a quieter, gentler crowd then those fewer that were against it but much more vocal?
I know that at one time I was not for the nicey nicey all the time, and some of it still stands on the BOI but I do believe that when that was in affect there was a lot more traffic. Perhaps people felt "safer" to post without being made to feel stupid or whatever reasons they personally had. There are a lot of guests that travel thru here, an awesome amount, how do we go about trying to entice them to communcate on these forums? I doubt the answer would be the gruffier way of doing things.

 

[KJUN]

I didn't do it intentionally, but I for one will say that I started using this site less and less once the paid requirement for classifieds enacted. I don't argue with it, and I wasn't EVER a BIG user before (too many kids of all ages arguing for my tastes), but I would hit it to SEE the ads and look at the "New Posts" while here. Once the ad posts seemed to drop off BIG TIME, I just had "no strong reason" to visit the site, so I just wasn't visiting to think about checking "New Posts." I will say that I'd LOVE for this site to grow and pull posters away from some of the sites I REALLY dislike!

I think the idea of combining 2-3 of the slower traffic forums into one larger forum, thereby reducing the total number of forums here is a GOOD one. Forums with only a couple posts of weeks don't attract people to visit them often. Combine a couple slow ones into one that isn't as slow will LIKELY, I suspect, encourage people to visit that forum more often. It would me! Better (i.e., more productive) moderation - not censorship like some sites do but more productive moderation - might help. The million dollar question is HOW? Obviously, if you step on a few toes while improving the sites for an overall increase, the ones with the stepped on toes probably needed/deserved to be ignored. Yes, I have a couple people that I believe banning would IMPROVE the overall quality/usefulness of this site, but that is neither here nor there.

I can't speak for others, but I DO use the BOI occasionally. When I do, I am VERY glad that it is there. Generally, though, I don't think of it as a "good" place. When someone posts a bad deal, for example, all of the posts saying "why don't you answer?" from 50 people make the whole thing, well, messy. You know penchant for order, though. The problem is that has become the tone of the forums, so it is, de facto, appropriate to behave that way. That's further harm to the BOI.

If I could help, I'd help....but I don't know the answers, either, Rich, so I don't know what I could offer. We all know that slow sites don't attract more users (even I admit guilt to that), but you need more users to MAKE a site busier. Circular argument - like a snowball rolling down a hill: how do you GET it started????

KJ

 

[WebSlave]

In thinking on whether this site has dropped because of the price tacked on for ads, I just do not think so.
I tend to agree with Dan. The question I have is when the stricter rules were inforced were there more people for it and just a quieter, gentler crowd then those fewer that were against it but much more vocal?
I know that at one time I was not for the nicey nicey all the time, and some of it still stands on the BOI but I do believe that when that was in affect there was a lot more traffic. Perhaps people felt "safer" to post without being made to feel stupid or whatever reasons they personally had. There are a lot of guests that travel thru here, an awesome amount, how do we go about trying to entice them to communcate on these forums? I doubt the answer would be the gruffier way of doing things.

Actually, the stricter rules were in tandem with the paid requirement to post on the BOI, so that would be difficult to determine. At the time, I felt that participation WAS dwindling on the BOI, PLUS there was that issue with Chris Johnson that kind of slapped me alongside the face. In that, I mean, I saw an example of a person who I SHOULD have allowed to show his true face via his vicious attitude in the BOI, as it just MIGHT have warned away some potential customers. Maybe, maybe not, but that was the main reason behind my relaxing the rules there. It got TOO nice, and therefore kept people from showing their true face when things got tense. Which personally, I think is a mistake. People SHOULD see someone when they lose their cool and go ballistic. See them grab the gun and start shooting all of their own toes off. That is truly a learning experience offered by the BOI that I really did not want to kill off with strict rules.

The BOI has to be rough and tumble for that reason. Bad guys SHOULDN'T be forced into appearing to be reasonable and calm GOOD guys by my rules.

 

[WebSlave]

Rich, I don't have any good advice, but I do want you to know there are many many people who use and enjoy your site. One reason I have not posted a lot is because of the search function. I look up stuff before I post. Most of the time I find the information I need! Also the BIO is something that has not only helped me but a lot of others.

You want to feel like the forums are useful. They ARE! I have been enjoying this forum for a long time. The only reason I have not contributed this year was three fold. 1. hospital bills 2. I have not wanted, needed to sell anything. (I am trying NOT to look at the classifieds I cant afford any more snakes ) 3. since the $10 option was taken away I figured I would just wait till I needed to sell or I was able to save enough for the 25.

Anyway. You are doing a great job.

Sorry for rambling

Thank you. But I always try looking ahead to see where we are going. And it appears to me that we may be heading in the wrong direction. Perhaps we are and perhaps we aren't, but I have to judge things as I see them. And if possible try to make a correction that won't make things worse, rather than better. So far, in the recent past, I don't seem to be able to successfully accomplish that goal...

 

[WebSlave]

Rich,

Yes, the paid advertisement is a possibility but I tend to think of an explanation more along the lines of Jim's thoughts. There are several extraneous sources of variability confounding the interpretation of the graphs.

A vission I would have for this site is not necessarily something huge (although that may interfere with your economic aspirations) but something respected by peers because the way people conduct themselves in here, and the quality of the information.

There have been (and still are) individuals that are highly detrimental to this site. Some forum moderators have been using their position for subliminal advertising. People are not dumb, they can see through that. Others have clear conflicts of interest, and incurr in cyberbullying of individuals that are clearly their competition. This is also perceived by the public.

In MHO it's not that much about charging for using this site as it is about the distasteful crudeness of some of the participants. Most people have enough with their daily problems to come to a site where 80% of what they read is negativity towards other members and/or themselves.

In all honesty and looking at the big picture (beyond Fauna) one should feel good that people try to stay away of this kind of behavior. The problem is that as the site scares some former good contributors away, at the same time it "concentrates" the rest.

You want to improve traffic? Give more power to your "super" moderators and have them crank the zero tollerance level up a notch. Sorry, but for some people that's the only solution. In short as much as I hate to say this the site needs to gain its respect back again, and IMHO the BOI is the place to start as it is where the main problem lies.

JMO

Yes, Dan, I have heard this before, but the choices of WHO the culprits are would probably change with everyone who is asked to name names. The WS Mod program was put into place to try to facilitate the ability of the membership to make this sort of change. Which I thought was going to work initially when some people got slammed to the carpet, but lately it appears that this is faltering to the point of collapse. I doubt this program will continue on through the upgrade process, which leaves the problem back where we started.

I am aware of some people who this site will be better off without, regardless of some dissenting opinions otherwise. I believe my phase of letting this site self regulate (my absentee landlord phase) is about over with. I've given it a good year to see how things would run, and unfortunately, it did not blossom as I had hoped with other people tending the field.

One thing I have also been hearing people say is that they want the BOI to go back to the way it used to be. But I am not at all certain what they are talking about. Used to be like WHAT?

As for enabling the site mods, yes, that will likely happen. Maybe even add one or two more. But things probably won't change until the upgrade takes place, which is dependent on the vBulletin developers getting the final beta testing done. AND getting my programmer to allocate time for the upgrade.

Yeah, I know, some people will be thinking, "Oh brother, YET another change around here..." Yep, you're right. Get used to it. That's the way I run this place. Change when change appears to be needed. If I ever hit the PERFECT solution for management, then we won't have to worry about change. But until then, that's just the way it has to be.

 

[Stardust]

Actually, the stricter rules were in tandem with the paid requirement to post on the BOI, so that would be difficult to determine. At the time, I felt that participation WAS dwindling on the BOI, PLUS there was that issue with Chris Johnson that kind of slapped me alongside the face. In that, I mean, I saw an example of a person who I SHOULD have allowed to show his true face via his vicious attitude in the BOI, as it just MIGHT have warned away some potential customers. Maybe, maybe not, but that was the main reason behind my relaxing the rules there. It got TOO nice, and therefore kept people from showing their true face when things got tense. Which personally, I think is a mistake. People SHOULD see someone when they lose their cool and go ballistic. See them grab the gun and start shooting all of their own toes off. That is truly a learning experience offered by the BOI that I really did not want to kill off with strict rules.

The BOI has to be rough and tumble for that reason. Bad guys SHOULDN'T be forced into appearing to be reasonable and calm GOOD guys by my rules.

You are correct in all the above did come into play. However we no longer have the pay to go on the BOI and I am with you on the too nice..... I guess we are back to square one and that is just WHERE to draw that line?

It appears obvious to me that the rules should be enforced with consistancy to help cut down on the banter that goes off topic and still give that rope enough length for the person to hang themselves. This goes for me as well since I do have a tendancy to throw up my hands and walk away for a week or so .

I don't think changing the site around is the answer, nor do I think you should stop the pay for ads, you are still the cheapest and there is a lot of support behind it. Keeping the BOI IN the BOI is a good start and hopefully it will come back to full swing and we can expand again on the forums.

 

[Gary O]

Rich, my friend. When I said BOI of old I think just the respect. When I look at you I respect you. But when I think of 80% of the BOI threads I think of garbage I have to get through to see the problem.

You know some of the posts just add more wood to the fire instead of bringing a bucket of water to help put it out and fix the issue.

There is no persfect way as we all know. To tell you the truth I love that you charge for ads. As you seen I paid to place ads here. I have sold from here. I think it is great! Also I try now to post ore in other areas. I do not have all the time in the world but I try. I try very hard not to get caught up in the BS.

Which ever way you go bro cool. I actaully talked about this with a vendor at the Taylor show. She said she did not mind paying the fee either.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Actually, the stricter rules were in tandem with the paid requirement to post on the BOI, so that would be difficult to determine. At the time, I felt that participation WAS dwindling on the BOI, PLUS there was that issue with Chris Johnson that kind of slapped me alongside the face. In that, I mean, I saw an example of a person who I SHOULD have allowed to show his true face via his vicious attitude in the BOI, as it just MIGHT have warned away some potential customers. Maybe, maybe not, but that was the main reason behind my relaxing the rules there. It got TOO nice, and therefore kept people from showing their true face when things got tense. Which personally, I think is a mistake. People SHOULD see someone when they lose their cool and go ballistic. See them grab the gun and start shooting all of their own toes off. That is truly a learning experience offered by the BOI that I really did not want to kill off with strict rules.

The BOI has to be rough and tumble for that reason. Bad guys SHOULDN'T be forced into appearing to be reasonable and calm GOOD guys by my rules.

Well just take a look a some of the posts by Chris Johnson. He was rude and inconsiderate towards others as it could be but he was glorified anyways; no one was able to see right through him. They just just took that as "brutal honesty" and a person that could be trusted blindly because of that. After all he called a spade a spade, how could he be a scammer? You recently banned Wes, because of his behavior. Does his behavior correlate with him as breeder/seller? Although I never purchased from him those that did, consider him one of the best. So where's the correlation between his online "persona" and the breeder/seller?

There's another individual that a year ago was almost unanimously voted a "bad guy" (the threads are still here) because the way he treated his customers. Today he is a paladin of justice and considered a "soldier" who fights all that the bad in the herp world. So in short, no, I don't think we are able to sort good from bad just by how they post. Maybe we do, but most people forget about it.

Regards

 

[Gary O]

Maybe I can help with the BOI thing.

Lets say Joe posts that he was ripped off by bob. Joe posts everything he has. It looks as if he was really ripped off. three other members start posting but one of the three is starting in hard before Bob even posts. He is calling bob every name in the book. But this member has NOTHING to do with the thread.

Bob gets here and sees all this and goes right into DEFENSE. Even though it could have just been a mix up. and could have been handled with one post by Bob and Joe reading it.

Now Bob has to defend himself against a person that thinks he/she is above all and this person is calling Bob scum, Ahole, and what ever else he can. ADDING to the fire.

Bob forgets all about Joe and starts in with this member and gets warnings. Bob then views the BOI as a head ache becuase of this member.

All Along it was Bob and Joe just misunderstood each other but it took 80 pages becuase of one or two people starting things and not having anything to do with it.

Posting an opinion is fine IMO. But some people on the BOI think they are the LAW. What they say goes. This really puts people off.

I know this problem is over but I seen Wes warn people for going off topic on a BOI thread and he did it all the time..........................That is the last one I could think of.

Not your fault though man. Not at all, you can not control others actions. If we could, it would be cool huh?

 

[WebSlave]

There is always more than one way to look at something.

In that above scenario, quite possibly Bob could see peer pressure already building, and seeing the number of views the thread already has, this could be a powerful incentive to go ahead and do the right thing to get this over quickly. Peer pressure is really what the BOI is all about. I've heard all the arguments about only allowing the principals in a transaction to participate, but I believe that would be self defeating. The problem, as some have pointed out, is that it has gone overboard by a large margin. Destructively so, even. But how do you draw a line between "good" peer pressure and "bad" peer pressure? It would be like trying to black and white define "profanity" or "pornography". Everyone has their own definitions, and likely to strongly disagree with someone elses.

Oh, while I am thinking of it, this issue of "consistency" has been brought up by someone yet again. I think the WS mods have had a taste of this and seen first hand that this is an impossible goal to even attempt to pursue. Even if only ONE person tasked themselves to read each and every post and try to apply the rules fairly to every post made, it just could not be done. Everything posted is subject to being interpretted differently by each and every person who reads it. And the same words written in different context will be interpretted differently, even by the same person. Not to mention that attitude itself, differing from one part of the day to another, based on external events, will color how that one person reads each post. Now take five people all reading posts, trying to interpret the rules fairly, colored with each one's particular mood of the moment, and you can well imagine how "consistent" such things would be day in and day out.

So "consistency" is just a fallacy from some imaginary world that really has nothing at all to do with reality. Anyone who expects perfection is just being incredibly naive and unrealistic.

 

[Mike Greathouse]

A view from the outside.

This comes as no surprise to me at all.
Let's look at the history of the site from the perspective of someone no so close to the action anymore.

Rich, you created a wonderful resource for the reptile community
You put in what I am sure were endless hours and loads of money to bring it to the people. After a year or two (I'm unsure of the actual time-line), many loyal supporters of the site made donations, contributed animals and services for auction, and in general tried to help you carry on your vision. Not long afterward, you were convinced by many to charge admission to further offset those expenses. As I recall, you initially resisted that move.

You were prepared to lose a percentage of the membership because of the change. but, you were finally convinced it was necessary to ensure the continued existance of the forum. As it worked out, I don't think that you lost as much as you thought you would.

Unfortunately, it wasn't long after, that for whatever reason, you became disillusioned and adopted the previously mentioned "absentee landlord" attitude.

I personally feel, that this irritated quite a few of the people who had given money or animals to support the site. I believe, that at that point, it appeared to them that this had become all about money for you.

Sometime later, you then adopted the "Pay to Moderate" program which only bolstered that perception. The problems with that program have already been presented in this thread, and I will not elaborate upon them further.

With all of this, it is no surprise to me that the traffic is down.
In all of the forums that I visit, there are always a handful of individuals that help to DRIVE the site. They initiate discussions, answer questions, and in general help to make the site successful. When you lose the participation of these key people (and I think that you have lost several), the site suffers.

This is especially true with a site that has been dependent upon them because the site owner, has chosen not to participate on a daily basis and drive the site himself.

I wish you luck with the resurrection, so to speak. This was once a great site, and has the potential to be that again. However, I think it is up to you to make it so. Charging people for the privilege of running it for you, while an ingenious business move on your part, is not going to carry the site in the direction in which you have indicated that you want it to go.

There's an old saying in business: If it's going to be, it's up to me.

Good luck, and I sincerely wish you well.

 

[The BoidSmith]

So "consistency" is just a fallacy from some imaginary world that really has nothing at all to do with reality. Anyone who expects perfection is just being incredibly naive and unrealistic.

Looking for perfection is almost "perfect" excuse about not doing nothing about an issue. Nothing can say that you haven't tried every name in the book. Some have worked great, some more or less, some not at all.

Destructively so, even. But how do you draw a line between "good" peer pressure and "bad" peer pressure?

That's even been addressed from a legal standpoint as we speak, due to a couple of suicides in teenagers because of cyberbullying. In my opinion peer pressure is good, but when it turns into harassment then it becomes a problem. As it was said recently, where does free speech end and harassment begin?

Some people are doing just that. They have past gone beyond acceptable peer pressure like for example: "you shouldn't be doing that because this and that", to outright bullying an individual while incurring in self-aggrandizing behavior. Just substitute the "I" in any given paragraph they write with "me" instead, that will let you see right through them. It's all about me (BTW I, me, mine; great song by George Harrison ). If they can get away with calling someone a liar, scammer, and thief, and even mock his sexual preferences (of which hopefully they don't have factual proof of , ) with total impunity, then it means they are one moral step above that individual.

Regards.