****Anthony McCain BAD , STAy Away****

[blueapplepaste]

I agree that no albinos in 8 eggs isn't conclusive. Everyone has horrible odds every once in a while. But that being said, if the seller admitted that they were not het then I think it's case closed. A refund/compensation is definately in order.

 

[SPJ]

I think this whole thing hinges on whether or not Anthony stated that they were hets or were not hets but sold to you as hets.

 

[Fedawg]

Yes

I am going to post the emails where it was admitted plainly it wasn't a het.

Anyone know anything abuot finding sent message sin hot mail. thanks again.

Derek

 

[Fedawg]

From : anthony mccain <[email protected]>
Sent : Sunday, July 29, 2007 2:12 PM
To : "Derek Federico" <[email protected]>
Subject : Re: Female "Het" TO DEREK AND ALL


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I never said anything about you and ******** stuff, ***** himself said it wasn't you and he knew that.. YOU DID say that about talking to **** directly pal, said you "were going up to their place and ask about the Woods problem when you got there in person", YOU ARE A DAMN LIAR if you deny this buddy.... IM AM DONE WITH YOU GOOD LUCK TO YOU .. YOU HAVE DECIDED TO ACT LIKE A spoiled little brat so I'll treat you as such from here on out...GOOD LUCK to you.... AND YOU by the way raised a 2 1/2 yrs old female up NOT A baby idiot, she was over 750 grms when you got her a year ago , FAR FROM a baby.... I am tired of playing childish games with you, I AM NOT SENDING YOU $$, you find me ANY breeder that would handle this how YOU want it handled, as I said most would just send you $650 and tell you a refund has been issued to cover things.... DO you think a guy can buy a car for $20k , have it a year and take it back to the dealership and ask for 40k back since it didn't get the kind of ga mileage it said it should have on the window sticker???? YOU are making this hard on yourself... YOU could easily sell the Mystic or whatever... AND why not say whay ***** is doing for you, makes me wonder ... I didn't know that female wasn't going to prove out either that is something YOU have in your thick skull..... Anthony.... YOU NEED TO get a clue how the market is today Derek, MY MYSTICS are worth ALOT more than I am asking (4k male, 8 k pair) HOWEVER NOTHING IS selling if you had a clue, you only know/understand what PEOPLE are telling you , and MOST are telling you only WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR, I have told you the truth on things and now your mad at me for clueing you in, whatever man, YOU will learn someday who is trying to work with you and tell you what the market is really doing, as I said a SUPER STRIPE for 10k is horrible considering they should be 20-25k , YOU JUST won't listen , that ISN"T MY FAULT ..... GO bother someone else.. I AM tired of holding your hand, and when I try helping you decide to spit in my face and act like a 3 year old, that doesn't get you far with me..............................................
----- Original Message ----- From: "Derek Federico" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 7:04 PM
Subject: Re: Female "Het" TO DEREK AND ALL


Anthony

To finish off even more , if your going to try to make me a liar and say its weird I had 2 hets that didin't prove , your gonna lose. You already contradicted yourself in the email.

Yep , I have had snakes with RI , who hasn't??? Yep they did get dehydrated for a bit. Now they are hydrated.

I called you thinking I would get compensated , then you start off with how ***** ***** is mad at you and your gonna sell Mystic pairs cheap and you don't care whatpp;l think.. Why would I want anything from you after all this?

You want to bring up my personal life , go right ahead. No nothing got screwed up , my dad helped me clean and water them.

Yea ***** called me too , your trying to lie and say that I said he is selling ********* Balls cheap. I never said a word about anything like that and you know it.

I dont want your animals Anthony , so don't many ppl.

If your gonna try to drag other ppl into this go ahead. Im sure they have plenty of things to say about you.

What is happening between me and ***** is between me and him.


Keep up your lying Anthony and its only going to dig you into a bigger ditch.

Looks like your the only one stirring things up. Im trying to get whats rightfully mine.

If you need some time to come up with the money let me know.

Its worth going through for me Anthony if it keeps you from doing this to someone else and treating them like garbage .

Derek

From: "anthony mccain" <[email protected]>
To: "Derek Federico" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Female "Het" TO DEREK AND ALL
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 07:03:22 -0500

Derek, I told you I was going to send you the Mystic friday morning and you were fine with that, now your saying it isn't ... I said you can keep the female adult and her babies and I will get the male Mystic to you.. At this point I see no reason to go back and forth here , I will still do as I said and you will have 1k worth of animals (maybe more as het albinos are $350/ pair and an adult female proven is $200 or more still , you had 8 eggs Derek ) + a Mystic that has a 4k market value as well.. ALSO the HET G Stripes are FROM VIRGIN POSS HET FEMALE G Stripes bred ONLY to the G Stripe male so their is ZERO chance that they have ANY issues Derek , you are being unreasonable and unrealistic and I am being honest, and serious with you and trying to fix anything with you.. YOU can run to the BOI I WILL NOT respond to ANY of it , as I will simply have people contact me and tell them that I agreed to send you a 4k Mystic since the $650 female "het" didn't prove out and that I told you to KEEP ALL the babies and the adult AS WELL ... and I will also mention to any that we agreed to send a mystic to you and that you even called back later that friday to thank me for working it out and being willing to send out a 4k Mystic to make this adjust into a realistic dollar value for you by letting you keep everything and send the mystic to you as well, and that I told you not to worry about send the lazer ball either as I said it was fine even if I sent you considerably more than the clutch would have been worth anyway, as I didn't want you upset as I was honest in that it was a mistake that I was correcting for you...***** called me tonight and mentioned your name , already things are turning out not so good as I am trying to fix it and your just adding fuel to a fire that I already went out of my way to put out... ALSO WHAT is ***** doing about his female het albino that also didn't prove out Derek, seems very weird that 2 well know breeders each have an animal that "didn't make " albinos for you, you have other normals /hets /etc, you have already told me that you were away at the mental hospital last winter and had people looking after things, you called asking how to cure dehydrated snakes etc, how are we to know things didn't get messed up there when all that was taking place???. I remember all this too Derek.. As I said I have no problem sending a Mystic to you , however I do not appreciate your comments to others as I am sure they are not hearing the entire deal here, I will mass email people how I tried to resolve this , and that you were fine with the solution and how your now turning all this into a $6k refund over a $650 snake , after I had already agreed to send a 4k Mystic and let you keep everything you already have on top of it!... I know some people would just refund you the $650 and call it a completed refund, I was/am willing to go beyond that with the Mystic to "make it right" as you call it , but this is getting redicilious Derek... YOU may feel free to call me, I won't call you as you said not to.. I am not taking this any further ,there is no reason for it, we both agreed on this and regardless of what others are telling you to do for whatever reasons they may have to try and make this into some big drama fest for the BOI, of which I have NO time to waste going back and forth over something I have already more than fairly handled, and we both had resolved already, on friday.. AS I said I have a solid reputation on ANY hets and since this is a "one time" case I am handling this the best I can, most with any reasoning would agree that you are not being robbed here and are getting a respectable animal worth serious cash (for alot LESS than the original $650 for the female that was 750 grms when you got her, the way people would see it) , a Mystic is a visual morph, and I will send you a quality animal as I have done in the past to you and all the rest out there that have animals from me... The overpayment on the female IF she is a normal is /was $200 a year ago so I think a 4k animal is more than adequate for your $400 loss, and if you put ANY value on the Het albino babies she made it isn't even a $400 difference or loss ... YOU mentioned to me on the phone the ordeal that **** went thru with ***** *****, and told me you were going to "get to the bottom of things and ask **** and ***** directly how things got messed up" with the genetics in house at ****, as "they didn't want to talk about it over the phone " as you went on telling me.. I ask you Derek what are you trying to accomplish , do you like to get people stirred up or something?? People don't appreciate things like that, you nor I have time for it, isn't that what you've told me time and time again, not to even get involved??.. I am able to make up for this and now your saying I need to buy 6k worth of stuff back from you, animals you paid under 3k total for a year or less ago, animals that you've already admitted were dehydrated last winter, and some of which you said had a respiritory infection mid winter to the point that you had to "give a few of them some time off breeding till they were fine again".. AND then to top it all off your worried my Mystic could be inferior?? Tell you what, I will mail it directly to someone near you, an outside neutral party, so you can BOTH see the animal I send you would be flawless, if that makes you feel any better ..You've heard about my animals as have others , and I am not selling anything I wouldn't buy myself.... By the way if you'd like a list of herpers that have hets from me that is fine , I have alot of adult hets out there and alot of backing that should help assure you or anyone else for that matter that this isn't something I 've had happen to others at all Derek, so there is no point in turning this into something it isn't, this isn't a Top Shelf Exotics ordeal and you already know it , so why even try going there, as I won't participate in games like that, you peronally have told me it isn't worth going thru all that (refering to the BOI drama) , and your instead proving your true colors if you do start something , as you know I am being fair and honest about this and am working to get you a Mystic to make it right, the same bloodline you've been asking "how much" ,"when can I get one", etc, etc, my offer is real and your acting like this , I just don't get it man..... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derek Federico" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: Female "Het"


Anthony

The real problem here is that when I originally told you , you already knew and didn't say anything. Next off , you treat me like peice of garbage , and talk down to me. I don't care how long you have been in the business , you don't talk to ppl like that . It was stupid of me , but I used to keep my mouth shut , not doing that anymore. All I hear from other ppl , is how you treat them like garbage and its not happening anymore. You throw me an offer , expect me to take it and keep my mouth shut. Not happening .

I don't want your animals , or anything to do with them , as it would only lead to more issues. About $4k dollars here , not incliding lost time.

Same thing with the het G-Stripes . I don't want to have to deal with them if anything happens. Paid $2, 250

Thats $6, 250 + , cash.

We can work this out here , or on the BOI . You can do the right thing and and settle it the right way , by full compensation. Im not letting this go. Don't call my phone as im not getting into an arguement on there.

Derek



From: "anthony mccain" <[email protected]>
To: "Derek Federico" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Female "Het"
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:42:15 -0500

AS I SAID Derek, I will send you a Male Mystic worth 4k and YOU can keep ALL the babies and adult female on your end .. THIS has never happend this way to me before and this is more than a fair way to handle this, ask around I have NEVER had a Het not prove out EVER.. I never would have thought a female that didn't go the year before would complicate things this way, it had never happened to me so I didn't think it was an issue , obviously the slim chance that she retained sperm from the year before must have been the problem... I am trying to handle this fairly and you are not listening to reason Derek.. Call me so we can settle this, you can keep your LAzer stuff or whatever your calling them , I don't need that either, I will send you a male Mystic, you can just keep the adult female and the babies , you easily have your 5k worth like your saying here.. And by the way 5k out of a $650 investment is a huge return to expect in a year on a single female in todays market... Anthony..
----- Original Message ----- From: "Derek Federico" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 3:26 PM
Subject: Female "Het"


Hey Anthony


Hows it going?

I have been thinking man , and I don't really agree with what you want to do. I don't want to argue on the phone here.

Heres is how I see it.

I paid you $650 for a supposed het. So really I got a $150 normal.

I, Raised it up to and bred it with my albino , and have 8 eggs hatching now. No albinos.

So at least 3 albinos at an averaqge of $750 for a male now and $900 for a female .

Call it $850 per albino.

So now I am out 3 albinos , Adult het female , and 1 year.

3 albinos @ 825 each is $2,475

Adult het female that big is $1500-$2000

1 years time- ?????? , Ill call around and ask.

There is at least $4k dollars in animals here i am out and time Anthony. I know it was a mistake Anthony , but this the truth. I don't believe I want to send anything in becaus eI dont owe you anything. I want to settle this soon. If you want to call and scream and yell Anthony , call someone else. I have other Hets from you (1.1) het G-Stripes , and im not going through this again. So I rather send them back too.
Let me know if you want to work this out. talk soon


Derek

 

[Fedawg]

Hey all

Here are the emails. There is one missing email I sent , that I cant seem to track down , as i Sent 2 different ones and Anthony only replied to one. The bold part clearly shows that he believes its not a het.

The fact that Anthony called me 2 days before I cut them wondering how many albinos I had , never said anything anything.

On the phone , his reason for not saying anything " He didn't want to jinks me" I'm not even sure what that means.

Sort thought it , tell me what you think.

God Bless

Derek

 

[mykee]

So, from 8 eggs from albino X het albino, you're looking at 4 albinos, not 3. $3300.
You paid for a normal 700g female instead of a het 700g female: difference; $500.
You're also out 2 het albino babies (as an albino X het will produce all albinos, and theoretically you shoud have produced 4 @ $250 each = $1000.
You simply cannot count the "Adult het albino" because you bought her, and counted her as a $500 loss already
That's $4800.
Not to mention lost time with this project.
He wants you to take an already overpriced animal and call it even?
I'd tell him to suck it.

 

[SPJ]

Am I missing something?

Where did he tell you that it was a normal and not a het? One breeding does not prove/disprove a het. I can see you thinking it's not a het since you bred it to a visual albino but the odds sometimes suck.

If he sold you a het, stands behind it being a het, and is willing to give you a Mystic to make you happy for crapping out on the odds, why is he a bad guy?

I just don't follow this.

This is the jist of what I got. Correct me where or if I am wrong.
Anthony sold you a het albino.
You bred it but crapped out on the odds and didn't get an albino.
You contacted him about having normal looking offspring.
He offered a Mystic to make up for lost time/babies.

If that is how this transpired, Anthony is not being a bad guy.

Please clarify the situation because from what I could gather, Anthony is trying hard to make you a happy customer and not rip you off.

 

[Gecko_Den]

I'm not taking sides here, but some of you crack me up; the only guarantee you get with a Homo X Het is that all babies will be 100% Het. You have a 50% chance per egg of getting a Homo, but there is no guarantee( I had a clutch of 7 eggs this year Hypo male to a proven Het Hypo female that produced 3 hypos last year out of 7 eggs, this year she produced no hypos) Also, some of you aren't even taking into account the price difference based on sex when "calculating" how much Derek should be compensated.

Derek this sucks for you, I also have a female I bought as a 100% Het Albino 3 years ago that has yet to prove out when bred to my Albino male, and since the guy that sold her disappeared 2 years ago I doubt she will ever prove out. I feel your pain, that being said I doubt you ever see the compensation that you are requesting/demanding. If he was going to "make things right" he would have done so long before it made it here to the BOI. I hope you get some sort of satisfaction, best of luck to you!

 

[ChrisGilbert]

Just throwing things out there on the bad odds possibility (I am staying out of the argument). I have a friend who bred Het Albino X het Albino boas, he got 35 babies. Only one was Albino. Stats say 1/4 should be Albino, so about 8 Albinos. Mother nature isn't always fair.

As I said, I am staying out of everything else, just wanted to mention that one clutch/litter isn't really the best test on something. I don't know anyone who has posted here so I am staying out of it.

 

[Fedawg]

Am I missing something?

Where did he tell you that it was a normal and not a het? One breeding does not prove/disprove a het. I can see you thinking it's not a het since you bred it to a visual albino but the odds sometimes suck.

If he sold you a het, stands behind it being a het, and is willing to give you a Mystic to make you happy for crapping out on the odds, why is he a bad guy?

I just don't follow this.

This is the jist of what I got. Correct me where or if I am wrong.
Anthony sold you a het albino.
You bred it but crapped out on the odds and didn't get an albino.
You contacted him about having normal looking offspring.
He offered a Mystic to make up for lost time/babies.

If that is how this transpired, Anthony is not being a bad guy.

Please clarify the situation because from what I could gather, Anthony is trying hard to make you a happy customer and not rip you off.

Well ,
Anthony told me on the phone , he was checking the records and he bred the sister to my het female to an albino , got 6 eggs and no albinos.

So his reason for the sister not proving , is because it got bred to a co- dom the year before and had retained sperm.

The reason for mine not proving is because , I got bad odds.

2 sister het s, both bred to albinos , 14 eggs total , no albinos. This COULD happen , but I gonna have go with no.

Anthony arrogantly throws an offer in my face , tells me to take it .

Ever think I don't want a Mystic?

The bold writing in the email , clearly shows that he esteems the female as a normal now.... thats how i see it , he mixed up some animals , it can happen. Anthony throwing an offer at me and is mad that I wont take HIS offer.

thanks

Derek

 

[RaccoonRiverReptiles]

It sounds to me that he is trying to make it right and you are refusing to take it because you believe you are entitled to more. Don't know much about ball pythons but if you wanted albinos, you should have bought 2 albinos. I understand buying hets because of the price but statistically the odds are against you to begin with. Also, you keep bring up his arrogance and his temper and I believe you are allowing your dislike for him personally to cloud your business judgement. I don't know the price on mystics but it seems to me to get anything out of this situation is a plus for you beings the well respected breeders such as Corey Woods and Kelly Hammack clearly state that breeding Homos to hets is a roll of the dice. Bringing up phone conversations is basically heresy since only you two heard it. Whether you want a mystic or not I would probably take it and try to recoup what money you can out of it. It doesn't sound like he was out to rip you off because he responded to you and offered you a settlement. Do you believe it was his intent to rip you off, or do you just dislike the way he handled the situation? Thanks Jason Kirtley

 

[Cheryl Marchek AKA JM]

I think you need to take a step back Derek. I don't know this Anthony fellow~ and while he sounds like a real jerk......your asking for way more than I think you are entitled too. This Anthony fellow can not guarantee that is the same female he sent you~ or that you actually bred it to an albino male.....I know you say so.....but he says she was a het....

Asking for all that money back is really taking advantage (I'm sorry~ I know you don't want to hear that and I would not want to either.)

A fair deal? I think "Fair" would be you send him his "het albino" female back~ in exchange he refunds your purchase price and sends you an 07' albino female. There is no guarantee that you would have gotten 4 albino's on that clutch~ (just look at the crappy odds I had this year)~ you may have only gotten 8 albinos~ or none (as you did) so sending you ONE makes you whole and he gets the female back to attempt to prove himself next year.

As far as the G-stripes........
I would refuse to take those back too~ I'm sorry.....but after reading the emails and that you had some trouble with your collection last year.....if he doesn't have photo ID's of the babies he produced and can verify it's the same animals.....I'd refuse to take them back.

I know it sucks~ and your out time and money. Iwould be pissed too. Next time you'll remember this loss and be more carefull when choosing who you trust. There are is just no really fair way to compensate in this case. But asking for the value of the animal, the value of 3 or 4 albinos, the value of your time and feed, AND of additional purchases? These are live animals~ not a money market CD with guaranteed returns.

 

[Fedawg]

I think you need to take a step back Derek. I don't know this Anthony fellow~ and while he sounds like a real jerk......your asking for way more than I think you are entitled too. This Anthony fellow can not guarantee that is the same female he sent you~ or that you actually bred it to an albino male.....I know you say so.....but he says she was a het....

Asking for all that money back is really taking advantage (I'm sorry~ I know you don't want to hear that and I would not want to either.)

A fair deal? I think "Fair" would be you send him his "het albino" female back~ in exchange he refunds your purchase price and sends you an 07' albino female. There is no guarantee that you would have gotten 4 albino's on that clutch~ (just look at the crappy odds I had this year)~ you may have only gotten 8 albinos~ or none (as you did) so sending you ONE makes you whole and he gets the female back to attempt to prove himself next year.

As far as the G-stripes........
I would refuse to take those back too~ I'm sorry.....but after reading the emails and that you had some trouble with your collection last year.....if he doesn't have photo ID's of the babies he produced and can verify it's the same animals.....I'd refuse to take them back.

I know it sucks~ and your out time and money. Iwould be pissed too. Next time you'll remember this loss and be more carefull when choosing who you trust. There are is just no really fair way to compensate in this case. But asking for the value of the animal, the value of 3 or 4 albinos, the value of your time and feed, AND of additional purchases? These are live animals~ not a money market CD with guaranteed returns.

I see what your saying Cheryl.

No its not taking advantage , you said it yourself... I could have gotten 8 albinos could have gotten 0. Thats right , so I drew the line down the middle and knocked one off. 3

Anthony has pics of the Het Stripe female , because he sent it to me as verification , not sure about the male.

Well to the above poster , yes I do not like it when ppl try to steal from me. I am not going to just accept any offer he wants to through at me and take it

All I can give is what I have heard on the phone to tell you why I would not buy a Mystic nor even want one .

Anthony for the past week or so had been telling me how Ralph Davis was mad at him because he thought that the Mystics
were Phantoms , and was selling them cheap.

He began to tell me that he doesn't care and he will sell them for $6k pair if he has too. hmmmm...

Now this the animal he wants to give as compensation ???? Has anyone on here ever seen his ads on KS , his Mystic balls dropped thousands of dollars in value in just a few weeks time. This is the animal that could potentially be a $20k snake??? how?


So please , im not sure how I can say I use my brain , look at this and take one as compensation , knowing the value just fall.

Also , I don't want a Mystic . Is it ok , that I just don't want one? Yes

Anthony I know you will read this , so let you answer this.

Did you , like you said to me. Breed the sister of my Het female to an albino , get 6 eggs , and no albinos?

Look at the email he sent , I read it and see he is plainly calling the "het" a normal female.

Derek

 

[ravensgait]

Derek maybe I missed it but have you posted any guarantee for this animal?? Something where it states what will happen if she doesn't prove out?? By what your asking for here you may as well ask to be compenstated for future clutches ETC ETC.

I think the usual guarantee for a Het is if it doesn't prove out they refund or replace the animal. Yeah it sucks that you don't get the income from any Visuals but I don't know of anyone selling any kind of animal that will cover you for animals not produced.

""Look at the email he sent , I read it and see he is plainly calling the "het" a normal female.""
I read that and I didn't see what you seem to see in that 'Bold type' statement. I also must have missed where he said he got some animals mixed up??

If she's isn't a Het then yeah he owes you but not what your asking for here.

Derek don't misunderstand me I'm not doubting your word and I know your upset. But you need to step back and really look at this.. Randy

 

[Casey Hulse]

That sucks Derek! I do KNOW how you feel, same thing happened to me with a different person(who still posts on KS), but I was not offered any refund at all.
One good thing for me though is my "100% het albino" produced 1.3 Mojaves this yr.
Good luck!

 

[wyblep]

Derek, As you and most of the people on this board know I too have just went through a very smiler situation with Tony Hurt. I know exactly how you feel and can see where you are coming from. But it does look like Anthony is trying to work with you. It looks like there was a mistake made on his end and even if he is not doing exactly what you think is fair in this situation he is trying to fix the problem. Now as far as his mystic line , is this just something you do not want to work with? If so maybe Anthony can give you a credit for the $4000.00 he says the mystic is worth. If Anthony honestly believes his Mystics are worth that amount then why cant you pick another animal for the same amount. And then you can pick up a male G stripe from Anthony to breed to your het female. Derek It sounds like you at least have someone trying to work with you. You guys just need to find what fix works for the both of you not just one. Anthony I know you will be reading this and I commend you for trying to work with Derek but it cant be your way or nothing at all. Remember he is your customer and he trusted you when he bought those hets from you and he did nothing wrong here. It was infact your mistake that has caused this unfortunate situation, so keep that in mind when you guys work this out. You might just have to give a little more then you think is fair to make your customer happy. Paul

 

[Anthony McCain]

I have tried working this out with Derek ..As I have said I am not sure what caused her to not produce any albinos according to what Derek says.. I had a sibling female lay 6 eggs , one egg perished half way into incubation and 5 hatched , I didn't get any albinos from that clutch either. I was honest and told Derek about that and told him we would work it out with something else I had (such as a Mystic )and that he could keep the female he raised up from a subadult as well as all the 100% Hets from his virgin animal, as it didn't seem right at the time for us both to miss on albinos... I told him the mother of his female and mine MAY have retained sperm as she was in with a male Pastel when she was just under 1500 grms , I never documented any breedings, and didn't think much of it based on her size and the fact that the male didn't appear interested at all towards her anyway . She was bred to an albino the following year as she had a very nice black back pattern and since the Pastel didn't appear to have done anything from the season before I wanted to make some Albino hets and see if maybe I would end up with black backed albinos once the hets produced.. Most would agree sperm retention is very rare, I didn't do anything to purposely cause Derek any problems if that's what happened here with his and or my female.. I would NOT put my reputation on the line over a $650 Het Albino just to make a few bucks, I'm not some fly by night business out here.. I've been selling Balls for over 10 yrs now , if I were a scammer would I really still be in business today???

Derek isn't returning my emails , nor will he listen to reason , he thinks I am out to get him or something, which I clearly am not... I offered to make it right with a Mystic , he agreed and then called back later that day to thank me for working it out, by the end of the conversation he had decided that he didn't want a Mystic after all , he said he was afraid I would drop the market on them so he didn't want one... I told him ALL the markets were dropping and will continue to , that if things don't sell at a specific price then the price drops until they do start selling again, nothing new here....

Anyway I had a local herper call Derek to see what options would work out.. They talked for about an hour .. Since Derek said he didn't want the Mystic I mentioned to the fellow herper the possibility of sending Derek a adult male Yellow Belly , an adult male Cinnamon , and maybe something else if it was realistic to recoup ANY lacking of his expectations on that clutch, all this was relayed to Derek last night over the phone..

I called Derek today and said I wanted to work this out BUT that he owed me an apology as I am not a thief , nor am I trying to ripe him off.. He ended the call at that point.... Derek should know that things don't always go as planned , I know this and was trying to help him.. I have several adult females that HAVE YET to lay eggs of any kind , yet you don't see me on here asking for thousands back for lost babies and time , because my LTC female YB's haven't produced Ivory or Super Stripe babies for me , they are not machines, they are animals .. Most people including myself are happy to get 8 eggs a year after getting ANY female, she obviously is a good animal, we just aren't sure if he missed on the odds or if something carried over from the pastel, either way I was trying to help by sending him something up front before knowing everything. Derek likely has 3-4 100% Het Females worth $1000 or more already , yes that isn't 3k or whatever he was hoping for BUT I also told him to keep everything anyways besides what I wanted to send him..

I know if a dog breeder sold a dog that later on developed bad hips that the dog breeder would likely refund the money for the pup and say he was sorry , he WOULD'T cut him a 5k check since the owner lost money on pups he couldn't make in fear that the hip problem would be passed to the pups.. THAT being said I am trying to decide if because of the fact that he is calling me a theif , liar, jerk , etc, that perhaps it is best that I refund him for the female and end it all right now.. If she produces albinos next year for him I guess that's tough for me isn't it.. He is talking trash about me and my animals , when quite frankly I stand firmly behind them as being some of the best Balls in the nation..... He has done nothing here but try and make me look bad.. The BOI is intended to give people a heads up when someone is truely ripping people off , NOT SOMEONE that is doing all they can to work out an issue that hasn't been proved either way just yet.....

I offered him a Mystic as myself along with others feel the Mystic is a hot new morph that has huge potential and would have been a very generous animal to send him for any stortcomings he may have experienced... I was not trying to do anything but make him happy. At this point I don't know what is fair, as I've NEVER heard of another breeder doing much more than just giving a refund for the animal.. Derek can return the photo id'd Het G Stripes For CREDIT for other animals but cannot receive a cash refund as that doesn't follow my TERMS of sale policy... Anthony McCain..

 

[wyblep]

Anthony , Thanks for coming here and explaining a few things. As far as asking for a apology I think you could have waited until you guys worked your deal out to mention that? I am sure Derek probably felt like you were treating him like a kid asking for something( IE say your sorry and then I will give you the candy lol.) Thats not right either. I am sure Derek would have apologized to you anyway after you guys worked this out. Do you have any other animals that you could offer Derek as compensation? Maybe you should just work out your deal right here in front of everybody and that would prove to everybody that you are in fact being sincere in this situation. I will tell you from experience that when a het you raise up does not prove out for what ever reason you feel wronged. And the first thing you do is feel like you just been robbed. You put all that hard work into a project and for nothing, It really sucks. I think that is the reason Derek was acting the way he was. He is still really pissed off and who can blame him? I do think you are doing good by keeping the line of communication open with Derek and I think if you guys just keep an open mind to each others suggestions you will be able to come up with a fair solution. Oh and about your comment about refunding just the purchase price and calling it a day, I do not feel that is fair at all and if someone does something like that in a situation like this I will make sure I never spend a dime with that person. Like I said I am speaking from experience I have had two het albino females not prove out and it sucks. Good luck. Paul

 

[Anthony McCain]

Paul point taken.. I mentioned the refund on the female as settlement , ONLY because I don't appreciate being called a theif , that upsets me and doesn't make me look good , especially since I was trying to work things out from the start with him. I am one of the most honest breeders out there and have a sizeable list of breeders all over the USA that DO have hets from me, as I said this isn't a situation I've had to deal with before, that should mean something...

I have already offered him other animal choices here and recently over the phone thru a neutral party, I am trying to work it out EVEN if that female is indeed a HET in the end and makes albinos in the future for him...

Like I said I have snakes that cost me THOUSANDS that STILL have yet to lay anything, maybe they never will, but you don't see me asking for money from the breeders that sold them since no profit has come out of them yet and in some cases ALOT of time has now passed without ANY eggs... And if an Ivory isn't produced when they finally do lay and the numbers don't yield an Ivory right away from a female that looks like it's a true YB will you see me on here complaining to those guys for ripping me off all that time and $$, nope........


All of us have opinions as to how to settle this, frankly this is really between Derek and I , he decided to inform everyone this way and I told him from the start that we could settle it without going thru this.. I told him I would make it right either way, without blabbing things that still aren't conclusive , it may seem clearcut to some but it still isn't. This just takes up time and in alot of ways gets things turned upside down and takes things off in directions that have nothing to do with the original matter at hand...

Derek can call the person he talked to last night and get this resolved, since he doesn't talk to me on emails or over the phone..

Derek is also failing to mention the dozens of hours I have spent talking to him about Ball Pythons, the many sometimes late night hours that DIDN'T involve buying anything at all from me . Hours of MY time that I gave him my knowledge for free as I thought he appreciated an honest professional opinion of the Balls and it's market.. He is new to this and I was helping him the best way I knew how... DOES this really sound like I was scamming him ? He recently decided to treat me this way by going to the BOI before I could work anything out or come up with another solution just "in case" we really did have an issue with that "het" and has now turned this into something that was avoidable. He may be a customer , but I also deserve some respect too, especially since I was trying to help settle things the entire time ..

Derek told me the day of "our" clutch hatching out it's babies that another well known breeder sold him a female Het and she also produced ZERO albinos for Derek as well , she was sold as a "het" as well. I wonder if he told "that breeder" he wanted a pile of $$ too for lost albinos/time???? Wonder how they are working it out? It's all everyones business on here now , right?? Similiar issue, how should that issues be resolved , I would think it sounds just like this one. I know Derek wouldn't be trying to get something from people by being dishonest about things, he's a christian and I doubt he would do that, he's always told me the facts ... I didn't ask for the adult Het back as I generally trust what someone tells me unless I have reason to doubt their word.

I have a solid reputation in this industry for producing investment animals , nothing less.. Derek knows this , yet continues to trash my name, not very cool I don't think.. Most people would NOT go out of their way at this point for someone like Derek, especially not after being treated like this and trying to resolve things before it even got to this......... As for asking for an apology , your right , I would HOPE he would apologize for the things he's said in the end , I know I would for anything I said, that's ALWAYS the right thing to do, the way men should handle things..

I'd rather not continue on here with this, I've said my side.... He will need to either email me or contact the person he spoke with yesterday. I have a sizeable collection to tend to , I do this by myself on a respectable scale, I simply don't type 75 words/ minute and can't work on my animals from a computer, it's vital that I keep up on the rest of my business as well, afterall they are Live animals, not machines or coins. I will address the matter when Derek is able to work with either myself or a neutral person , and will handle this for good at that time .... Anthony..

 

[shrap]

You are doing the right thing in my book Anthony.

I cant say what happened with the "het" you sold Derek, but I do believe you when you say you did not intentionally misrepresent the animal or sell it under false pretenses.

Good luck to you both.