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cguarino30

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I recently purchased a hatchling bull snake female, and she seems to have some sort of problem. A few days after her arrival, (I try not to disturb them immediately upon arrival, so I can't say whether this was the case when she arrived) she regurgitated. Upon removing her from her tub to clean it, I noticed what has to be one of the weirdest reactions I've ever seen.

The reaction progresses over the course of 30 seconds or so. It starts with a normal tail rattle, then quickly shivers up her body and then she goes into this form (see picture), which she will hold without moving, until she calms back down and goes back to normal (see other picture). After she calms down, I can still see some very slight curvature where these dips occur, but I can't tell if they are permanent or due to some sort of swelling or injury from the episode.

Does anyone have any idea what this is? I've never seen anything like it. Is it congenital or environmental? Will this impact my future plans for breeding her? I also have her brother, who is being kept in identical conditions with no issues. To complicate things further, the breeder I got her from says that she was a twin, and that her twin does not exhibit any of these issues at all. I am really eager to hear anyone's opinions or experience on this issue, as I am quite concerned. Thank you for your time.
 

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I should add that the reaction is definitely caused by stress, as when she is warmer or agitated she is much more likely to do it, whereas if she is cooler and left alone she will not.
 
I've never seen anything that comes and goes like that before, I'd be interested in hearing what a vet could find. :eek2: Personally I doubt that it's caused by the environment, although I can see how it could exacerbate the problem.

Also I'm sorry, but I would NEVER breed her. :(
I don't know if it's genetic or not, but why risk it? Especially since the issues seem to be in her lower body, I'd expect her to have a higher risk of eggbinding or other complications.
Right now I'd focus on whether the poor girl can even keep a meal down. Fingers crossed that she recovers well for you! :eek:

I know that must be disappointing, I hope you're getting a refund or replacement from the breeder...
 
I'm weighing in as a lizard person, so pardon me if I say something really stupid. I would assume she's kept food down in the past, or she wouldn't have made it to that size. That would cause me to lean toward illness or injury rather than congenital defect. Regurgitation and muscle spasms in general are signs of IBD, for which there is no cure. In geckos, you see curved bones and contortions in severe cases of MBD, also incurable at that advanced stage. You definitely should take her to the vet to avoid losing your other snakes. Just my thoughts, I'm sure more snake folks will weigh in. This is extremely interesting. Sorry for your poor girl!

Noelle
 
I hope more snake people weigh in too as I'm still fairly new to things, but just thought I'd toss out my thoughts on what Christine said since I'm not sure and would like to hear more opinions on the matter~

I think MBD is more of a lizard/turtle etc sort of thing since most snakes don't really need UVB lighting and get the correct amounts of calcium/Vitamin D from the whole prey items they eat.
Also I want to say that IBD is more of a python/boa thing since I've never heard of any confirmed cases with colubrids, but there's still a lot about it we don't know.
Lastly I've heard bulls hatch out pretty large straight from the egg, so I don't know how much size she's gotten... I am curious as to how long the breeder had her and whether she showed any problems before with them.

Some sort of injury is definitely possible, especially if she was perfect before, an xray might help...
Wishing you the best of luck with her!
 
I didn't comment earlier, when I first saw this thread, as I have no idea what happened with the poor dear. I will offer my thoughts now though, it seems to be a type of seizure or extreme muscle spasm.

Autumn is right about the MBD, it is generally a lizard issue. However, I believe snakes do get MBD when they are not fed prey items (with bones) ... ie chicken, beef.

I would keep her well clear of any other snake and take her to the vet.
 
She has been eating prey items (pinky mice) I do not see how any injury could have been sustained, as she was simply in a tub for the time and there is nothing in there she could have hurt herself over. The breeder says she has been eating fine and did not notice this issue at all, but as I said, it only comes up when she is sufficiently stressed, so I do not believe it to be the kind of thing that one would have noticed in the course of normal keeping. I am currently talking to the breeder about a possible refund/replacement, though I'm not sure the breeder is going to accept responsibility.
 
morph is an axanthic patternless. If anyone else out there knows something by all means let us know, but as far as I, the breeder, or anyone else I have talked to know, nobody has ever seen anything like this.
 
unfortunately, I do not have any herp vets near me. Right now, I think the best thing I can do for her is to avoid any stress, as that seems to be the problem, so mostly I am just trying to leave her alone. She ate another pinky this weekend, so here's hoping she can keep this one down.
 
I have had a few people sending me pms asking for the identity of the breeder, so I wanted to post my answer here to anyone interested:

At this time, I am currently discussing options with the breeder regarding refund/replacement, and I don't think it would be prudent to post his/her name on this board or send it via pm while that is going on.
 
In addition to leaving her alone, I would raise her temp by 2 degrees. ( not sure what temps bulls are normally kept at, but a raise in temp could help) I would also make sure she is hydrated.

On a side note, if the breeder doesn't come through with a resolution that satisfies you, I would post this and all email communication on the BOI. There is something wrong with her that didn't happen over night (read - in the short time she has been in your possession). Of course, if he does, you can post a goodguy thread saying he is a standup guy & will take care of issues if they arise.
 
cguarino30 said:
I have had a few people sending me pms asking for the identity of the breeder, so I wanted to post my answer here to anyone interested:

At this time, I am currently discussing options with the breeder regarding refund/replacement, and I don't think it would be prudent to post his/her name on this board or send it via pm while that is going on.
Click to expand...

In this situation, posting the breeders name (in this thread) would also violate site policy; and most of the people asking probably know that.
You could send it by PM; but, you are making the right choice by giving him a chance to address the situation.
 
Just wanted to update everyone on a few points.

She kept down her meal from last week, I will be feeding her again on Friday, hopefully that will go well, too.

She still shows the same behavior and will crinkle up when handled or stressed. In addition, when she is not stressed, the minor kinks in the spine do not appear to be going away even though they are faint.

The breeder is still not contacting me, though I was given a personal reason as to why not. Not sure if it's BS or legit, but I'm trying to do the right thing and give the breeder time with their personal issues.
 
Chris, I still think you need to take her to a vet. Now that she has processed a meal, then a trip to a vet clinic would not be as risky. A good reptile vet can do blood work to rule out fixable things like infections that can sometimes cause neurological issues, do xrays that could show injuries or metabolic issues, and either find or rule out the presence of viral infections, which could put your other animals at risk. Can you work out something with the breeder to accommodate a vet visit? As for herp vets, there is a list compiled by Melissa Kaplan that is broken down by state. I bet we could find a herp vet within a reasonable distance from you.
 
I am considering a vet visit, but I think everything is pointing to a congenital defect, so there wouldn't be anything a vet could do, and the visit would just put more stress on the snake.

If this were some sort of infection, 1) it would be too late for quarantine because the snake was shipped in the same container as her brother and 2) I would see some sort of progression, either better or worse, which I am not seeing. The condition is staying exactly the same. In addition, her brother, who was shipped in the same container as her, and resides in the tub next to hers (they are alone in the rack as I quarantine all new arrivals) and who has been subjected to exactly the same conditions as she has shows no signs of this condition whatsoever, so I highly doubt it is any sort of infection.

I am all for vet visits, but I have to use my judgement here, and I think the visit would cause more harm than good. It would cause undue stress to the snake, would cost a considerable sum out of pocket, and in all likelihood would serve no function other than to possibly provide non-definitive evidence that the breeder is at fault, which I'm not willing to stress the snake out to do.

That being said, I will contact the breeder to see if we can work something out, but seeing as how he is not returning my emails regarding refund/replacement, I doubt he is going to be willing to help me with a vet visit of $200+.
 
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