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Any info on "Michael" selling the Pied hets?

Let me see.

Micheal Gonzales aka pieballpimp/dabadboyzrule says the het pieds came from Micheal Sanders.

Gabriel finch aka sarelox /xoleras says he bought some stuff from Micheal Sanders (a PHOENIX BREEDER)
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23187&highlight=Sanders

anyone want to take some bets that Micheeal Sanders in "phoenix" and micheal gonzales in new mexico and gabriel finch in tucson are somehow in cahoots together?

hold on to your horses batman.

more info to come
 
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Message-ID: 000f01c37045$f03734b0$8a7ba8c0@xol
From: "Michael Sanders" [email protected]
To: "XXXX" [email protected]
References: 001501c3703e$6fa05e50$56a51643@XXXX
Subject: Re: Piebald
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 22:00:17 -0700
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I sold them to him a while back, I will have to look at the invoices I have at the office. I can look for any old pictures, maybe I can get find some. I am not in the snakes business any longer, so I do not really keep records anymore. All I have now is my pet albino retics and albino boas, nothing else. But anyway, I remember selling him 1.2 hets from my breeder stock. It was about a year ago, maybe a bit more. I had a sale right before a local reptile show we had here in Arizona. He did spend a lot of money on them, he paid cash, and I heard from him a few months later thanking me for them. I guess he bred them and he did in fact got very lucky and got a few piedbald out of the clutches.
I think he was from Alabama or some state east of me, I can't remember for sure. But like I said, if you need more info, I will look into it and if I find any records, I can fax you a copy of the invoice I gave him. I am not sure if I was very helpful to you, my place got broken into 6 months ago, they took just about everything, never was able to recover anything and that pretty much put me out of business.
Good luck to you.

Michael Sanders

----- Original Message -----
From: XXXX
To: [email protected]=20
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 9:06 PM
Subject: Piebald


I would like to incquire about the het piebalds that micheal gonzales has.
he says he boutght them from you.
But he does not have pics.
do you have pics of the parents?
Did he really buy them from you?
how long has he had them?
============================
www.XXXX.com
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xol ([68.110.11.2])
XOL = the name he gave his computer Xoleras aka sarelox aka Gabriel Finch

68.110.11.2 = The IP address for Gabriel Finch aka xorelas aka sarelox akaGabriel Finch. (Can be verified by webslave and or Ken Harbart)

Note: Xorelas was posting with AOL but unfortunately for him. One of his posts was done on COX.NET And it traced toTucson.
He claims Micheal Sanders is in Phoenix. Unfortunately for him......Micheal Sanders IP which matches his traced back to tucson.

P.s. I have emails from people who have cox in phoenix. Their IP traced back to phoenix.


3 130.152.80.30 7.627 ms isi-1-lngw2-pos.ln.net [AS226] Los Nettos origin AS
4 198.172.117.161 9.013 ms ge-9-3.a01.lsanca02.us.ra.verio.net [AS2914] Verio
5 129.250.46.94 4.385 ms ge-3-3-0.a02.lsanca02.us.ra.verio.net [AS2914] Verio
6 129.250.29.136 5.472 ms xe-1-0-0-4.r21.lsanca01.us.bb.verio.net [AS2914] Verio
7 129.250.2.187 11.052 ms p16-1-1-0.r21.snjsca04.us.bb.verio.net [AS2914] Verio
8 129.250.2.72 11.218 ms xe-0-2-0.r20.snjsca04.us.bb.verio.net [AS2914] Verio
9 129.250.2.70 11.699 ms p64-0-0-0.r20.plalca01.us.bb.verio.net [AS2914] Verio
10 129.250.3.79 11.302 ms p16-0-0-0.r00.plalca01.us.bb.verio.net [AS2914] Verio
11 198.32.176.144 13.985 ms PALTBBRJ01GEX0201A001.R2.PT.COX.NET (DNS error)
12 68.1.0.192 97.176 ms paltbbrj01-pos000000.r2.pt.cox.net (Fake rDNS) [AS22773] Cox Communications Inc.
13 68.1.0.203 205.518 ms fed1bbrc02-pos0100.rd.sd.cox.net [AS22773] Cox Communications Inc.
14 68.1.0.166 32.802 ms chndbbrc01-pos0102.rd.ph.cox.net [AS22773] Cox Communications Inc.
15 68.1.0.165 32.714 ms chnddsrc01-pos0901.rd.ph.cox.net [AS22773] Cox Communications Inc.
16 68.2.15.246 36.555 ms tucssysr01-pos0504.rd.ph.cox.net (DNS error) [AS22773] Cox Communications Inc.
17 68.0.128.74 37.494 ms ip68-0-128-74.tc.ph.cox.net [AS22773] Cox Communications Inc. <-----see the tc.ph? a real phoenix ip will be ph.ph NOT tc.ph tc.ph is tucson

In summary Micheal Gonzales was giving out Micheal Sanders as his reference.
and I just proved that Gabriel finch is really Micheal Sanders or vice versa.


Case closed
 
I forgot this

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Subject: Re: Message about: 1.2 adult het pieds all proven
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Michael Sanders produced them and I bought them from him I have had them for
1 year I have refs here is the persons e-mail that i got them from <A HREF="mailto:[email protected]">
[email protected]</A> I have PICS thanks
 
What is it with these shady Pied guys?

Lately its like bad drug dealers are turning from cutting street drugs to selling phony snakes...
This is becoming an epidemic.

At least the boa/python add had pics!!



:D
 
Ask, and ye shall receive...
The IP Address is: 68.110.11.2. The host name is: ip68-110-11-2.tc.ph.cox.net. Please click here to return to the thread.
From a post by none other than Finchy himself.
 
They just reposted the 1.2 hets ....

They used the name Joanne this time, it came up, and then a minute later was gone, do not know what happened, but they did try to repost them!! under a different name.

Dave
 
Buy your hets from either John Manser (he has an add under todays date on kingsnake right now) or from John Romeo of Harbor reptiles. You can email me for either of their numbers, I have animals from both and the animals as well as the breeders are excellent.

Also, I can see a full clutch of pieds out of hets but that's something worth bragging about and to not post any baby pics.......Comeeee Onnnn people! If it's too good to be true......does that ring a bell to anybody?

You can tell 100% hets from their belly pattern. I have enough hets and have talked to enough small honest breeders to know this to be true. They all have the white center with somewhat of a black line on either side. You can see what I'm saying in this belly photo taken by John Manser for his ad on kingsnake to show proof the animals are in fact het.

Yes this holds true for 66% and 50% clutches too and yes all of the big breeders have known this for years. Honest breeders like John Romeo have and will never sell their 66% animals because they known you're getting ripped off if you buy one that doesn't have that pattern.

I would never sell poss. hets either. I would keep the animals I knew to be hets and sell the others as pets. I'm not attacking anybody for selling them and from a percentage standpoint breeding a het to het and selling all the normal looking babies as poss hets is correct.

But from a standpoint of ethics I would strongly question anybody selling thems motives.
 

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So are you saying that Peter Kahl for example is falsifing his claim to have 66%ers & 50%ers? I really need some clarification on this, because that would mean anyone selling these animals as "possibles" are lying, correct?

Greg Holland
 
Adam,

While yes some of the PIED hets have the "markers" it is not true of all PIED hets. I have known many people to have 100% hets that did not have any of the markers. As for your comment below Not everyone that sells pos. het animals has questionable ethics or a bad background. You really should think about what you say before you open your mouth. ALL of the big guys sell pos. hets as do alot of small guys, and I know of a few breeders who have purchased pos. Hets themselves that did not have the markers that proved out. I myself am selling some 50% pos. het PIEDS right now.

TheGhost said:
But from a standpoint of ethics I would strongly question anybody selling thems motives.
 
What I'm saying is nothing of the sort!

What I am saying is that any breeder selling either 50% poss. hets from a het to normal breeding or 66% poss. hets from a het to het breeding are correct in selling them as such because the animals do in fact have that mathematical percentage for having that trait.

Provided the breeder hasn't picked the animals up and looked at the belly then you're getting the odds you paid for. Those odds however change once the snakes belly is looked at, going for 50 or 60% to at least 99%. I can't tell you what anybody other then myself does or is okay doing for sure.

My above statements are meant to be applied to the situation mentioned by the person starting this thread. I wanted to let many of you now being able to afford hets know a sure fire way to tell if in fact the snake is het or the breeder is lying. It was my assumption that somebody would go further with what I was saying and ask about poss. hets so my intent was to address that before hand as I don't check the BOI more then one or two days a week.

Tell you what, because I honestly don't care to start any trouble. Call the breeder you question and tell them you want to buy 2.5 poss. hets for the $500 each price or whatever they have them listed for. Once you have the deal done let them know you're wanting to stop by and hand pick only the babies with a belly pattern like the one in the above photo has and see what happens.

Either they're going to laugh and hang up because they're not going to let you buy 7 het pieds for $3,500 or you just lucked out and bought 2.5 het pieds for $3,500. That should give you the answer you’re looking for without me having to explain, guess, assume, argue, defend or spend the next two weeks talking about what other breeders know or do.
 
Sounds fair. Most people don't get the opportunity to 'hand' pick though. I've got some poss het pieds from the same clutch, that was a 4 egg clutch. The 2 I have do not have those markings you're saying, but the parents were both hets. Maybe I'm looking at the belly all wrong. If I emailed you pics of the bellies could you tell if they were definatley going to be het? Greg Holland
 
I just thought of something.

1. If you all wanna talk about the characteristics of the het pieds. Please start a discussion in the ball python forum.

2. I can see it now. all the crooked people selling het pieds are gonna go into their normal ball python collection and look through for bellies like those. Then sell them as 100% or possibles.

How do I know this? I just went through the ball pythons I am selling and am now gonna keep each male and female that has those markings. I could get lucky. (This is almost better than playing the lottery)
 
Thought I'd jump in...

Hello everyone, I briefly scanned over this thread so please forgive if I missed any details but I have to put in my 2 cents. Greg just purchased my last 2 male 66%ers, both 100% verifiable through Mark & Kim Bell (Reptile Industries, Inc.) and during the time I had these up for sale (5 in all) I had ONE inquiry about the belly markings. They actually put $100 deposit down and then changed their mind after 5 weeks or so. I believe talking w/ Adam and John Romeo it what made his final decision. Now here's my thoughts on this visual het thing...I believe this characteristic NOT to be 100% reliable, and after talking with many friends of mine in the hobby, it seems most agree. While I wouldn't argue that maybe every het that Romeo has produced may show these traits, it is my opinion that it may be something in his "line" so I'm not arguing the fact that there is truth in what Romeo or Block have stated (or proven) but I firmly believe it could be a "line" thing. My whole philosophy is this...I've been blessed with many friendships with many great people in the hobby but I have 3-4 very, very good friends that are pioneer's in the industry, truly pioneer's. Some I've known for 12-15 years. Now I find it very hard to believe that they would lie to me about something like that. Now, I'm not saying animals w/ these markings aren't 100%ers, but I'm saying all 100%ers do not show these traits. Brian at BHB Ent. was neck & neck w/ Peter Kahl on proving Pieds genetic. So I guess in short, I have no reasons to believe this is a sure-fire way to tell true hets, actually I have seen more reasons no to, BUT again...I am not arguing the statements made by either Adam B. or J. Romeo because it could very well be true w/ the animals he/they are working with. So I think there's no right or wrong in this instance. Just out of curiousity Adam...have you produced Pieds using hets?? I was just wondering, because first hand experience would be helpful in this matter. I think eveyone that has actually produced Pieds with 50%ers, 66%ers, or 100%ers should post their experiences here. Greg...I know the animals that you got off of me do not have these markings, NONE of the 5 in the group did...the reason I know this...a person inquired about the markings and wanted beely pics of each, also I had heard of this visual het thing before, but if you want my 100% honest opinion, I like the odds on those animals - especially coming from Mark & Kim, and I wish you the best of luck with them!! After I read this I thought maybe you were thinking you got stuck by me...that's not my way of doing business, I stand behind my animals 110% and I really hope these prove out for you but let me know if you're having any second thoughts.
 
Gabriel Finch email addy

FWIW, the email addy that I have received at least 30 communications from Gabriel Finch is [email protected]

I have saved each and every one of these numerable emails and am willing to persue Gabriel to the fullest extent I can using all legal means available to me.

In his emails, he has taken an attitude of trying to work things out and I have to tell you all..... his efforts appear sincere.

I still have no snake, no $1500 though and am running out of patience.

I do have a physical address that my personal check was sent to and bank account numbers that it was deposited in. I have been reluctant to put on my "super-bitch" clothes again, but have kept them hanging in the closet just in case I needed them for the future and I won't hesitate to use them.

Is there any one else that has actually purchased snakes from him? I am under the impression that he's trying to rip off others to pay me off and I'd rather not have anyone else get hurt.

Cathy
 
Hey Troy!! No I have no doubt that these are exactly what I bought from you. I think the way you do; the belly markings of SOME het pieds do show the distinct black lines that The Ghost is refering to. To say that ALL 100%ers have it is absolutley, in my opinion not true. There are some breeders really trying to prove this out, but again, it goes back to the line of genetics from which the snake(s) came from. Troy in no way was I trying to get info to try to turn around that in some way you knew concrete that these were not 66ers at all. Heck for what I got them for if they don't prove out, I will make my $$ back just because of their absolute quality. Believe me if there is 100% concrete evidence in this black markings thing, I'll make arrangements with one of the many top breeders to come and hand pick "50%ers" for $500 all day long!!!LOL
Greg Holland
 
Just one of the many fine options we have here on the BOI that I like to utilize!!
Greg Holland
 
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