Any info on snakebstr

[snakebstr]

Webslave, I never said that the pics were needed for everything I have said but you stated that I got 3 points for ADVERTISING. And These snakes ARE I REPETE ARE NOT FOR SALE and WILL NEVER BE UP FOR SALE. So how can you say I am boosting my sales or trying to boost my sale because this is a high trafic forum/post. I was just posting the pictures to show some of my snakes to the people on here who think I am a fly by night dealer. I have several GRAVID snake and snakes still breeding. This post was to get info on me, NOT slam my Charator because of a snake I posted several months ago for a 1250.00 price tag on kingsnake.com, IS IT? Just wondering, Since you 2 guys think I am such a CROOK..... Answer this one!!! This has been up for how many days and how many BAD GUY POSTS have I had on me. NONE. Case should be closed shouldn't it!! Surely if this is such a high trafic site someone would have said something now if I sold them something that wasn't what I said it was OR was too high priced. Do you have any proof that I am a crook or an uneducated ball python person. I think NOT. AL I never said pastels were not what they were but didn't they come from the wild collected animals out of Africa? As with most of the morphs. Go to Ralph Davis web site and see how many adults that produced "morph" balls are labled as wild animals. Then tell me you know what your talking about. Dude you think what you want and I will think what I want. The old saying goes Opinions are like A**holes Everyones got one. LOL. see ya later

 

[The BoidSmith]

ARE THOSE PHOTOS NECESSARY TO THIS THREAD, AND I AM JUST CALLING THIS WRONG?

Although not strictly necessary, the pictures helped clarify that David had some trouble in determining the difference between a normal ball python, and a well known morph such as the Pastel Jungle. Nevertheless, deleteing them will probably not change the point that has already been made.

Regards.

 

[Wilomn]

This evans guy and his attitude are wearing pretty thin. The constant attacks at anyone who disagrees with him are juvenile and often bordering on idiotic in that he attacks others for doing exactly as he has done, ie getting all over Al for selling a high priced pastel(and I think Al's price and his justification of it are sound) while evans himself thinks it's ok for him to do it himself with unproven morph possibilities. Again back to the pot calling the kettle black.

All his infantile attitude asside, I don't think the posting of his pictures was an attempt to advertise what he has, more of a childish way of bragging about what he has. I think his animals look pretty good by the way but, with the attitude he's pretty low on my list of who I would buy from.

Wes Pollock

 

[WebSlave]

Webslave, I never said that the pics were needed for everything I have said but you stated that I got 3 points for ADVERTISING. And These snakes ARE I REPETE ARE NOT FOR SALE and WILL NEVER BE UP FOR SALE. So how can you say I am boosting my sales or trying to boost my sale because this is a high trafic forum/post. I was just posting the pictures to show some of my snakes to the people on here who think I am a fly by night dealer. I have several GRAVID snake and snakes still breeding.

Hold the phone, fella.

I've been in this business long enough to know that the way many people advertise their business is by posting a photo gallery of the adults they have to entice people to buy the offspring. In nearly all of those cases, no, the displayed adults are not for sale either, but the juveniles are, or will be.

Between pages 6 and 14 of this thread you posted 14 times and all but one of your posts had an attached photograph to it. Your final photo on the post on page 14 was when I assessed you warning points for inappropriate advertising. I'm calling it as I see it.

You were using the BOI as a photo gallery to display your stock.

Nice try, but don't even try to think that I can't see through that sort of thing.

ALL of the photos will be deleted, so don't bother trying to pull this stunt again.

Any dissenting votes?

 

[8BallPythons]

AL I never said pastels were not what they were but didn't they come from the wild collected animals out of Africa? As with most of the morphs. Go to Ralph Davis web site and see how many adults that produced "morph" balls are labled as wild animals.

Everyone probably already knows this, but just to clarify...

Pastels came from wild caught "pastels" not normal appearing animals. The same is true for 99% of the other proven morphs. The founding stock was the morph itself and not even remotely normal looking. That founding stock was then bred and in most cases line bred to produce the wide array of proven ball pythons morphs we have today. That said, numerous wild caught “different” appearing animals were never successfully reproduced in captivity. The ratio between proven morphs and different looking animals that never panned out weighs heavily on the side of failure to the chagrin of many pioneering breeders.

The spontaneous appearance of morphs such as the Ivory ball python from breeding two "semi normal appearing" animals is quite the exception.

Just because a normal appearing animal has a slightly different look when compared to other normal appearing animals does not guarantee or even remotely suggest that it's appearance is inheritable. If you are a fan of mathematical theory, with a little research into importation numbers vs. the number of proven morphs in captivity you can statistically prove with a high degree of certainty that it is "just a normal".

Lots of people are just getting into ball pythons and learning about the “genetic soup” all of the experienced breeders posting to this thread know like the back of their hands. I know this is off topic, but I think it may be helpful to some of the “lurkers” just reading along.

Thanks for listening

-Adam

 

[Sasheena]

If you are a fan of mathematical theory, with a little research into importation numbers vs. the number of proven morphs in captivity you can statistically prove with a high degree of certainty that it is "just a normal".

I am certainly a fan of this mathematical probability (I have a BS in statistics). Currently I raise a lot more mice than snakes, I do it for the snakes, but enjoy the mouse with just as much fervour as the snakes. I've come across three or four genetic varieties I coveted but never expected to get as I've inbred certain lines. Hidden recessives WILL show. But of course this is easy when you can have 6 generations in a year. Also we're talking about 45 breeding groups of mice.... so figure the odds.... twelve generations (two years), 45 breeding groups of 1.4 mice each, and only three or four interesting mutations.

I believe that the mathematical probability of getting something cool from wild caught animals is definately there.... but only if you have the time to wait for 3 to 6 generations... and you have the volume to back it up. Basically to have it happen first shot is asking for a lot! And it's not at all likely.

So if you have 45 breeding groups of normals all 1.3 or 1.4, and wait 6 to 12 generations, you will most likely hit the jackpot!

 

[snakebstr]

WebSlave, I don't care wether you delete the photos or not. But they were honestly put up to show that I am a breeder with knowledge of the animals I work with(PERIOD). You can belive it or not. However I do think it is Unfare to give me points on that matter, But it's your website. I actually thought you were a reasonalble guy when I purchased stuff from you in Daytona. And you did have some killer looking corn snake morphs. But I guess I haven't been on your site long enough for you to see that. I just don't appreciate people like AL jumping all over me and posting me as a possible crook for posting a snake for 1250.00 just because he don't think it is worth it. I would like to say it again how many people have said that I sell junk animals or don't stand behind them or are too high price(aside of the few ball pythons I posted)...NONE... and we have had 17 pages. To The above 8ball, Etc. as you have stated all of the animals mentiond were wild collected morphs and bred in captivity...right.... LUCY was not produced from 2 normal appearing animals? But they were ALL COLLECTED in the WILD. I also never said that a snake that lookes different IS a het, but we all know of all the talk. Ofcourse most of your breeders are not gonna let the info out until they establish a colony of the appearing animal. I have read that the pieds are commonly collected in GHANA africa. Along with all the other morphs so why is it that AL degrades My farm hatch babies or for any farm hatched babie? As I stated in my last post...DROP IT GUYS>>MY CASE IS CLOSED. NO ONE hase established/proven me as a crook. thanks DAVID, and MERRY Xmas and HAPPY NEW YEAR to you all...EVEN AL...see ya

 

[8BallPythons]

LUCY was not produced from 2 normal appearing animals?

I didn't state anything to the contrary. Please re-read my post. There are several animals currently in captivity being referred to as leucistic. A couple were wild collected from Africa, several were produced from animals that are considered "proven morphs", and a couple were spontaneously produced by breeding "normal appearing animals" together.

but we all know of all the talk

The "visual marker" rumors that are circulating around the ball python community are unfounded conjecture. Until someone actually takes the time to prove it (using a large enough sample to make it semi credible) and can provide hard evidence that it is true, it is technically just very wishful thinking. The reality is that if you studied the frequency of black tail striping in piebald “hets” it is probably no different than the naturally occurring frequency of black tail striping among all ball pythons. This is just speculation of course, but until there is hard evidence to the contrary its all just speculation.

I have read that the pieds are commonly collected in GHANA Africa. Along with all the other morphs so why is it that AL degrades My farm hatch babies or for any farm hatched babie?

I have no idea what AL's motivations are nor do I care. It is true that every year morphs are collected and hatched in Ghana, but once collected they are certainly not dropped into bags of captive hatched babies and sent blindly overseas. The African ball python farmers are very intelligent business men. They are eager to spot anything different that might command more than a dollar on the US market. When found, these animals are photographed and offered individually to US and European importers and breeders. Even if something odd makes it into a bag by accident, the bags are then sifted through again once they hit the US. The importers themselves are looking for that one in ten thousand animal that they can post on kingsnake.com and make an easy thousand dollars plus. At that point the odds of a "morph" making it to the next level down are about the same as discovering a captive hatched animal that is secretly "het" for something.

Can it happen? Yes it is certainly possible, but statistically unlikely. You probably have a better chance of finding a thousand dollar bill on the floor of your local shopping mall.

I am not trying to burst anyone’s bubble or call anyone anything, I am only trying to help the "lurkers" that are trying to learn sort out the fact from the speculation. I think we can all agree that laying down the facts and letting people decide for themselves is always the best way to go.

Thank you for listening.

-Adam

 

[snakebstr]

You are as close to right as I have seen anyone here posting here 8ball. Most of the posts are trying to say I was a crook for posting what someone considered a normal farm hatched ball for a 1250.00 price tag. Here is a not so good picture of the snake. However this picture was done with a sony mavica digital camera. They are nice camera but they do NOT show true colors of the snake. Maybe it ain't worth 1250.00 but that is what I wanted to sell it..that is my right...isn't it. People don't have to buy it do they. It was listed as JUNGLE? and the text said it was farm hatched in ghana. but anyway this subject is getting old. I will probably turn blue in the face trying to prove that I wasn't trying to rip anyone off. But anyway you all can take it home with ya. see ya

 

[Seamus Haley]

I didn't touch this one for a long time... But...

If it's not a genetically proven morph...

And it's not a phenotypical morph that falls outside of the generalized phenotypical elasticity displayed by the species...

And it's lineage is unknown...

Then using ANY terms in the ad which indicate that the animal is or might likely be a genetically proven morph are there fopr only one reason... To convince an ignorant buyer that they are getting an amazing deal. This is fraud.

I'm all for anyone pricing their animals at any amount they like, provided... and this is the important part... that they represent the animals honestly in every manner, both directly and in any implications which are made.

Meaning- an ad which says "Normal Ball Python, Fresh Import, Pretty Pattern $1250" is 100% okay. An ad which says "Pastel Looking animal? Possible Jungle? Maybe Het for something? You breed it out and make millions?" is a crock of... Fraudulent advertising.

People don't have a problem with the price... they have a problem with the manner in which the ads were worded, which very strongly implied, despite any claims to the contrary, that these animals were something other than freshly imported normal appearing ball pythons. Everyone on this site is all for any individual being able to make a profit, as much of a profit as they possibly can in fact, but the profit needs to be made legitimately, by honestly dealing with customers. It DOES have an effect on EVERY single other person who's dealing in the hobby/industry when one person commits an act of fraud. When someone gets ripped off, buying an animal which was sold as a pastel or a jungle or another genetic morph when it was NOT, they are very hesitant to buy from anyone else in the future and some may even drop the hobby all together. Only by weeding out the fraudulent can the legitimate be left to conduct business.

As a small note... I think webslave already said that the constant posting of animals in this thread, animals which are not the ones in question for the ads mentioned, is nothing short of self promulgation and advertising in an inappropriate area of the board. I can't speak for him of course, but really now... how many times does someone have to be hit over the head with a concept before it gets into their brain?

 

[The BoidSmith]

Well said Seamus!

Regards.

 

[Darin Chappell]

I hate to be insensitive to the BP community, but you all have kind of brought this type of garbage on yourselves, by allowing every "new" looking pattern be named as a newly found "morph," when there is simply no way for the genetics of all of these deviations to have been proven distinct from one another. I mean, everytime a breeder/hobbyist comes up with a "red scale 1/4" behind the right eye morph" (as opposed to the old and blase "red scale 1/4" behind the left eye morph"), BP breeders and buyers clamor for this new "morph" without ever questioning whether it actually is something new or not.

Unfortunately, this has become somewhat of a vicious cycle now, because many people realize that they cannot afford to wait to see whether a trait is actually genetic in its origins, and if so, if it is inheritable, because if they do, they will lose out on the initial flurry of active sales.

I've stepped on a few toes in the cornsnake community, but my attitude is that you better have "proof positive" before you try to sell me a new morph! I want to see the actual genetic evidence before I am willing to accept the advertised claims. Most cornsnake breeders are that way too, but it seems to be a far cry from that standard in the BP world. It's a shame too, because I think they are ripping themselves apart for simple greed's sake, and they are taking their animals down with them.

On a final note, I find it incredibly irresponsible to talk about an animal being a "possible het" for anything, unless there is a known carrier of said gene in the ancestrial line, and the probabilities are therefore known. Simply saying, "It's cool looking ... who knows what it's het for!" is fraudulent in my book.

 

[Python Dreams]

I really don't think that it is fair to say that the Ball Python community brought it down on themselves, because alot of breeders spend large amounts of money on particular proven morphs and that is what they sell... No need to speculate about possible genetics or make up any new name. It is generally the people that do not sell morphs that have "High White Super Fire Ball's" and other type sales oriented names that I find to be quite ridiculouos. Their have been posts about this on the BOI and I believe the general consensus was that it was a smart advertising move to get people to look at your add. Where I find that the person who does this loses any credibility in my view of Ball Pythons regardless of what their status is of sending out quality animals. You just look at their add and think "what a joke". I also believe that you will find that most of the people that are naming these Ball's are "Reptile enthusiast" and not solely working with Ball's and donot know how much information is truly out there for people willing to find it.. So therefor they don't know how silly they look in the eyes of the more educated (only in reference to Ball's ).
Now as far as David's "Jungle" goes, I donot understand the interest in something that is proven non-genetic and I do find the price tag way too high. But that is his right.... His language was completely out of line along with his attitude through alot of this..
But as for the "Yellow Bellies".... From what I heard these display something that has become very wanted. Wether it is definitely proven or not... I don't know if my memory is correct, but it seems like VPI hatched out an almost pure white ball from breeding a pair of normals together... Then the Snake Keeper did the same thing.. Are we really to believe that they just bred 2 random normals together or that they found somewhat normal appearing animals with some slightly similar type pattern? I'm not sure what is true or not since the breeders keep this low-pro, but I would be stoked if I had those snakes breeding (assuming they are displaying the same traits as the "Yellow bellies").
Thanks, Tom Baker

 

[NEWReptiles]

I really don't think that it is fair to say that the Ball Python community brought it down on themselves, because alot of breeders spend large amounts of money on particular proven morphs and that is what they sell... No need to speculate about possible genetics or make up any new name.

It is generally the people that do not sell morphs that have "High White Super Fire Ball's" and other type sales oriented names that I find to be quite

I agree 100%.

It seems that the breeders/hobbiests that do NOT breed morphs are usualy the people who post ads with way too many adjectives.

 

[John Apple]

It's fraud as said, and if these 'possible' hets are being bought ......then I got this bridge..possible het for traffic..and there could be quite possibly a few trucks down the line somewhere.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Why is anyone still bothering to reply to this goof's posts? HE DOESN"T GET IT!...HE WILL NEVER GET IT!. He has posted 55 times now and said the exact same thing in every freaking post.

"They're mine and I can do what I want"

Pretty much the same thing the kids on the playground said when you were five.

He doesn't realize that putting a question mark after the word Jungle makes people think the seller thinks the animal may be a Jungle.


He doesn't realize that suggesting something might be a het for something to a buyer makes the buyer think it very likely could be a het for something.


He doesn't understand the difference between illegal and unethical.

HE SIMPLY AND TRULY DOES NOT GET IT!

All that we are doing is giving this numbskull airtime to spout his inane ramblings.

His business practices will remove him from the hobby in due time

This is a classic case of ignore him and he will go away.

 

[snakegetters]

Reminds me of a herp show I went to where some yahoo was selling some pretty scruffy and obviously fresh WC animals at bargain basement prices as het for various expensive traits.

Several of us who had seen enough of his foolishnes walked up the table, and we offered to sell him a pair of young, normal appearing Pituophis for only $5,000. I responded to his puzzled look with a deadpan expression. "See, they're het for legs." More snakes were offered that were "het for wings" and even an empty container containing snakes that were "homozygous for transparency."

The resulting hilarity was a good deal of fun and I think it embarrassed the guy to realize that his weak attempt had pretty much made him the laughingstock of the show.

Then there were the highly colored bearded dragon morphs for sale at another show that had clearly been helped along by artificial means. As a consequence, "tye dyed" beardies in lurid Grateful Dead colors courtesy of nontoxic food coloring started showing up on display to warn people of this potential.

 

[snakegetters]

I should clarify - the yahoo I was talking about at the herp show is not anyone on this thread (as far as I know). Just a general precautionary tale if you are buying a snake that is "het for something" or a lizard that looks a little too colorful to have been born that way.

 

[snakebstr]

First off I told you all that the CASE WAS CLOSED 2 pages ago, I was going to stop responding to all of the stupid comments you all are making. I didn't TRY and RIP anyone Off. You can SAY whatever YOU want--MY POST WAS NOT FRAUD IN ANY WAY. FRAUD is when you DO not have what you post or YOU TOTALLY MISREPRESENT YOUR ANIMAL. I stated that IT WAS A FARM HATCHED BABY that has a weird look to it, But the bottom line is the price was set high because I was really wanting information on the snake. I figured I would get some Intelligent feed back, But I was WRONG not in posting the animal for 1250.00 or 4500.00(JOKE) or even the 15,000(2nd joke). To all you people that think they know it all..... Is it fare to say that everyone in the ball python community should follow one set price? NO. I was setting MY price according to a PRICE of a WELL KNOWN BREEDER that had offfered a snake just like mine in everyway for 750.00 I believe. SUNCOAST as fare as your comment to my business I have been selling snakes for at least 20 years. NO ONE here has said I have sold or ripped anyone off...HAVE THEY..NOPE!!! SO the comment about me getting out of the business or running my customers off Is WAY OFF BASE. How long have you been in the business? How many ball pythons come into the contry for 5.00 each that everyone weeds through and get the ODD pattern ones and jacks the prices up? How many? Are they all crooks? Should they sell the baby ball pythons for 5.50 just to make a small profit? Like I said in the Add 2 pages ago I am NOT A CROOK I don't RIP PEOPLE OFF or DO I MISREPRESENT MY ANIMALS, I call them as I see them. Asking a Question in your POST IS NOT FRAUD!!!! "such as COULD IT BE HET?". As with ALL of the IMPORTED BALL PYTHONS they could all be possible het for something most likely NOT but the possibility is still here. Maybe only 1 in 10,000 but still possible. Did you know the albino gene pops up random 1 in 40,000. Since they find proven morphs every year in GHANA Africa. It was EVEN stated that Pieds oare being collected on a regular basis in Africa, But no one would comment on the actual place!!! So you don't think the BIG breeders look for ball pythons that have the same trait to see if it is genetic? Your CRAZY. Question? If you were collecting snakes in Africa and you came upon a ball python with a solid white head and nothing else but normal pattern on the rest of the body. Would you sell it as a normal wild collected ball python? I think not!!! The snake I posted had all the characteristics of a jungle(i.e. light eyes, spot on head, mustache, solid yellow tinted bellie.) Sorry to say I will be in the business long after your gone because I treat all of my customers as I would want to be treated, with respect. I will do my best NOT to respond on the SUBJECT anymore. BYE. thanks DAVID

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

56 posts and counting and ....HE STILL DOES NOT GET IT!. Give it up people. It's like trying to explain geometry to a tree stump. The concept is simply beyond them.