any tricks for reversing or helping metabolic bone disease?

[hoggdragonz227]

One of my beardo females has not grown an inch in an entire year. She has her own enclosure now, uva/uvb the right food, though she dosent eat it, and she should be healthy. I have been force feeding her for the last two months, it is very tiring. she wont eat by herself. I took my larger beardo to the vet, he had some worms and coccidia of course, but he was not sick, they gave us antibiotics and we gave them him and to her too, at a much lesser dose instructed by our vet. this seemed to make things worse, i think it killed all her good bacteria as well as the parasites. so we got the acidopholiz stuff to put back some of the "good" bacteria, she gained some wieght after that but still will not eat!!! it is so frustrating, she used to be voracious, then the antibiotics screwed her. anyways, I was wondering if there are any tricks or supplements or medicined I can give her that will give her a boost, make her eat, and help reverse her metabolic crap. any out of the box ideas or anythin will help, im on my last leggs her and so is this lizard and i do not want her to die.

 

[tandy4000]

This thread would be much better off in the general health forum or the bearded dragon forum. I wish I could give you more advice, but I don't keep beardies. Good luck with your beardie, and welcome to fauna.

 

[coyote]

What are you using for UVB?
What are the temps in the cage?
What are you using for ambient heat?
What are you using for the basking heat?
What substrate are you using?
Are both dragons housed together?
How long ago was the consult with the Vet?
Did the Vet actually examine this specific dragon?
Was a fecal done on this specific dragon?
What medications were used, what was the dosage and duration of treatment?
Why do you think the problem is MBD?

Antibiotics are not used for parasites. They are used for bacterial infections.
Medications for parasites are not known to kill off beneficial enteric bacteria.
Not following antibiotic instructions to the letter is one of the main causes for bacterial Resistance. It is never a good practice to do this. It can even be a very dangerous practice.
There is some indication that certain antibiotics, when used in bearded dragons, result in Yellow Fungus Disease. Do a search on this if you haven't already.

More information, specifically answers to the questions I have asked, will go a long way in getting you useful advice.

 

[Rebel Dragons]

Coyote posted some great questions, that if answered, would help us help you.

Also great advice on antibiotics, Coyote!!

 

[hoggdragonz227]

Using zoomed 10.0 for uvb, plus plenty of natural unscreened sunlight. the temp is 85-90 and never below 70 at night.substrate is washed playsand and small gravel.they are not housed together. vet about two months ago. yes fecal on specific dragon.medications: panacur one dose, albon small dose once a day for two weeks,at same time small dose daliy of baytril.I think the problem is mbd because is seems likeher jaw hurts her, and one of her shoulders is swollen. and she is so lazy and lethargic she walks on her wrists sometimes and dosent even fight or squirm when you flip her on her back, really sad, thanks for your help, hope this helps hope somebody sees it, im new at the whole forum thing, my animals usually die of old age.

 

[coyote]

From the information you have provided it looks as if you are already providing what is available to prevent MBD.
The symptoms sure do sound compatible with the disease. And you are right, it sounds really sad.
I am curious about the concurrent prescription of the anti-parasite panacure with two antibiotics. Albon has been implicated in being a possible cause of Yellow Fungus Disease. Read these references for information.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17094&highlight=yellow+fungus

Link from Fauna thread above
http://www.reptilerooms.com/modules...ns&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=46&page=1

Are you supplementing with D3 everytime you force feed? D3 is a fat soluble vitamin that can rise to toxic levels. Too much D3 interferes with proper calcium balance also.

I was able to successfully treat an iguana several years ago with daily force feeding, calcium supplementation, unfiltered sunlight and injectable calcium/D3. This was under the supervision of a veterinarian. (I was a licensed Vet Tech).

What are you feeding her? There are some vegetable foods that will block the absorption of calcium. Examples include spinach, parsley, chard, and other high oxalate plant foods. Citric acid, added to food facilitates the absorption of calcium contained in the food and supplements. Citric acid is found in citrus fruits. All that is needed is a sprinkle over a pile of greens and veggies.

There exists a real possibility that she has a metabolic disease that is congenital. Also, if the lining of the intestines have been injured they may not be able to do their job and the nutrients aren't getting into the bloodstream.
The symptoms would be directly or even indirectly related to such a disease or disorder. If this is the case, there may be little that can be done. It happens.

The situation seems to have become quite critical. I think you need to bring her back to your vet--or another competent reptile vet. It really sounds bad.

 

[hoggdragonz227]

yeah it is bad, i looked at the yellow fungus site and she has none of those symptoms, asside from her swolen shoulder she looks perfect, colorful. but her eyes are sunken and she is so damn lethargic. She has the will to live, Im glad i am providing everything she needs to try and recover, none of the foods you mentioned were used, only plain chicken baby food mixed with carrot or pea baby food, mixed with water, cricket dust, and jumpstart. daily. sometimes we pry her mouth open and shove a small cricket in, she trys to spit it out but we make her by squirting water while she has her mouth propped open with a smashed cricket in it. she hates it and fires up with a black beard and vibrant yellow after i feed her, and for about five minutes she walks around, then its back to laying looking sick with her eyes closed all day. thanks for the help, she's gonna need it.

 

[coyote]

I know that dealing with this type of thing can be heartbreaking.
How much intervention is too much, how much too little?
Keep fighting or give up?

I'm going to make some comments from off the top of my head.

If you are able to forcefeed a supplemented slurry, it may be unnecessary to force insect feeders on her right now. The stress might be undermining the strength of her immune system and costing her energy she needs to survive. Stress can be detrimental even though a certain amount is unavoidable. How does one find the balance? The slurries are more concentrated in nutrients and moisture, are easier to digest and easier to ingest. You get more bang for the intervention/stress buck.

I might, if it were me, back off emphasis on animal protein and amp up the pureed vegetables with some fruits. They have all those beneficial phytochemicals and antioxidents that I am sure she could benefit from. Also, if she has any kidney compromise--which is highly probable--the animal protein stresses kidney function. The vegetables provide fiber that favors easier elimination and fluid balance. It's always good to keep things moving through.

With the change in the weather, can you get ahold of clean, pesticide/herbicide/fertilizer free dandelions (flowers and leaves)? If so, chop well, freeze to rupture the cells and add them to the puree.

Keep us informed.