Aprylla Hall - Bad Guy

[Crested Lady]

I have already taken mild issue with this part of post #106, as have others in this thread. I think that many who have come to Aprylla's defense in this thread would be sympathetic to any emergency situation.

Issue or no, I still believe that a smart business will have a safety net for transactions that may not go as planned. Let's face it, nothing is perfect and it's always best to be prepared for the worst, whether it's an accident during shipping, or a hurricane that prevents the transaction. A responsible seller does not spend the buyer's money until the transaction has been completed.

The fact is still that Aprylla has spent the buyer's money (though the money has since been replaced by other transactions) and her account is frozen because of her own actions. (Sending a tracking number for a receipt, therefore disputing the PayPal complaint and freezing the account.) Please correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like she basically froze her own account by sending the tracking number for a worthless piece of paper and now has no way of getting to her money.

While people may be sympathetic to Aprylla's situation, you should not mix personal feelings with business. It's sad that bad things have happened to her (lost job, hurricanes, animals dying), however once you take the step to sell a product, you become a business. A customer has the right to a refund if a transaction can not be completed, whether that reason is out of someone's control or not.

 

[Junkyard]

It is understandable that everyone seems to have their own idea of what is good business ethics. Aprylla chose to try saving the animals and in the hectic run from the storm turned out to be worse then she expected. I can understand that having to refund everyones money at one time during a mandatory evacuation is time consuming, during a catastrophe time is not on your side. Trying to figure out what to take and what to leave knowing that it may not be there when you return is not easy and very stressful.

Shawn felt that his money and snakes were important enough that Aprylla should have driven out of the emergency to ship the snakes off as soon as possible to ensure their health, or if needed just borrow a library computer to refund his money.

We can debate these two over and over, but we will be doing nothing more than talking to a bunch of brick walls trying to prove our sides. Hopefully everything will go through for these two, I think it may be best to hear from them after this weekend, if things do not go as planned then we can reopen the can of worms.

 

[sig1980]

Sorry to jump in here when I said there would be no more posts unless solicited. But I wish people would READ my posts. I stated be fore, please drop the issue of whether or not she spent the money. I sent it to her and it was hers to use as she needed.

The only problem I have with with the whole "Frozen Assets" issue is that Aprylla has evoked a great deal of sentiment in making people believe I took away her only source of income my filing a claim to protect my money and ensure a shipment was being made. She would have never volunteered the fact that she had already opened another account and was doing business as usual unless one of the contributers to this thread (and no I can't go back and copy it without having to start over- someone else will have to do that if they want) told everyone that they had made a purchase from her through and it went through just fine. She did not need access to hundreds of dollars to send me the animals, only about a $37.00 fedex shipping fee. (Aprylla I apologize if it comes to $38.75 or $36.27 or whatever- I'm only approximating!) And since you took my typo and pronounced to everyone that I was OUT AND OUT WRONG, I'm afraid I will have to point out yours mistakes as well. You recently told everyone that "Mr. Gilbert NEVER" asked for a refund. Well...
Please check the e-mail I sent you on 07/17/05 at 7:27 am when I stated that since you had failed to provide the information I requested "I expect an immediate refund". I am not disputing your earlier statement that afterward, I did, and always have since then insisted that I would rather have the animals. That's why I didn't make an issue of it. When I asked for the refund you had not provided the information I requested. When you later explained that you did not want to give up the number for your "wholesaler" I agreed to that and and agreed to the deal you proposed. I STILL maintain, and have no problem with EVERYONE hearing it, that you are correct- at all times after that I insisted that I would still rather have the animals. The only reason I point out the refund request is that you posted on this forum in BIG BOLD LETTERS that I NEVER requested one.

 

[Jim O]

I'm sorry but I have to wonder about all the people here who are commenting on "running a business". How many have actually "run a business"? I don't mean selling 50-100 reptiles a year or 10-20 items on ebay each month, but a real business with employees, fixed costs, variable costs, debt obligations, etc. It is not as simple as that.

I run a business with a five figure monthly cash flow. Not huge at all, but not tiny. My previous business, in which I had partners, had a multiple six figure monthly cash flow. So perhaps I have a different perspective on "running a business" than some do. Surely many here have much larger businesses than that. First, most new enterprises fail. They fail because their business plan was flawed or they fail because they were not adequately capitalized, or most often a combination of both.

Having said that, I have always kept my businesses well capitalized. In September of 2003 Hurricane Isabel hit my area. My current venture is in real estate investment and management. Many of my properties were damaged. One was flooded and had $40,000+ in damage. The insurance paid less than that and the check HAD to go to the mortgagee to be held in escrow pending completion of work. They doled it out in dribs and drabs. Thankfully I was well enough capitalized to fund that but it did involve diversion of some funds that were paid by other insurers for other, less urgent repairs. While the place was uninhabitable the mortgagee of course still wanted the monthly payment, but no rent was coming in. Repairs took three months to complete and that was fast considering contractors were rather busy in this area.

I had only started in this venture a year or so earlier and it might well have thrown me into bankruptcy had it been two or three flooded properties and not just one. And that was a well capitalized business. So before you all criticize Apprylla for her business acumen or lack thereof, think "Could she reasonably have anticipated two evacuations, loss of a job, loss of a home, and a car repair in one month?" and reasonably prepared for it?

How many of you have the recommended six months reserve in your bank account that most financial advisors say you should have before discretionary spending (like reptiles and vacations) is even considered?

 

[sig1980]

And CHAMCO,
everyone continues to take issue with WHEN I made the claim. I have tried to explain that in as simple terms as possible. Yes, there are 45 days to make a claim. Yes, I could have waited longer.

Now please, try to comprehend this part.....

I checked the rules of paypal which stated that a refund will ONLY be made if there are sufficient funds in the sellers account.
I did not EVER state that Aprylla was lieing about anything, only that with SO MANY things going wrong, the situation became SUSPECT.

If there HAD been a scam, and I waited until I KNEW it was a scam, it would have been too late. The account would have been emptied and she would have been doing business under another account leaving me with no recourse. (We saw how easy that COULD have been done since she was already doing business under another account back at the beginning of this thread).

So, for all who have jumped in late, or only scanned through the entries because of their length, does this finally explain how I came to the decision that I did and not (God help me ) "Jump the gun"

 

[Junkyard]

OOOO! Jim that Bites

 

[Sasheena]

While I have sympathy for Aprylla, Shawn did forward me all of his email dealings and he did in fact request an immediate refund. From the responses to emails that Shawn sent me it doesn't appear that Aprylla received that email. (I could be wrong it was a LOT to slog through)

I believe that the frozen assets issue is completely on the shoulders of PayPal. I found after working with them for 1000+ transactions that they are creaky and ridiculous. They are just wonderful for a great transaction but awful for anything else.

I don't believe that Aprylla opening a new paypal account is sneaky or underhanded, she had eBay auctions running, they HAD to have a working PayPal account in order for her to receive her money and ship her merchandise.

I DO understand Shawn's desire to file the complaint, because he IS right, if you file a complaint and paypal says "you're right, you deserve this money" and there is NO money in the account, it's a worthless judgement.

BUT as someone else said, when doing stuff over the internet, if a person has a reputation on here the chances are (99% of the time anyway) that you can trust that reputation. Since her reputation is good, I would suggest that allowing a little bit of time for the effects of the hurricane to settle themselves out would have been a good retroactive choice. HOWEVER I do believe this transaction, in the long run, will be settled, whether through paying back the money or the receipt of the snakes. From what I read of Aprylla's last post she's not going to be back from Georgia for a couple of days or a day at least. When she's returned she will have her animals on hand to ship out. The complaint has been lifted from what Shawn said, and so he has decided to be the first one to offer up the hand of trust.

Tempers have been frayed on both sides, trust has been lacking, and time and circumstances (when you mix in hurricanes and paypal) are against the happy resolution to the problem. But I still believe it will work out okay. I think that both sides have acted like "good guys" in that they are forthcoming with "evidence" and responses ...as much as is possible.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Shawn, many of my sympathies lie with you,

... but when you have a moment, could you please link this:

posted by Sigma1980 (Shawn):
And CHAMCO,
everyone continues to take issue with WHEN I made the claim. I have tried to explain that in as simple terms as possible. Yes, there are 45 days to make a claim. Yes, I could have waited longer.

to where I took such issue? said you should have waited longer? I might walk in my sleep, and I might talk in my sleep, but now I type in my sleep ?

I am a bit confused as to when I said (to borrow more of your post) that you "jumped the gun", that you "stated that Aprylla was lying", or said that your actions were wrong? Perhaps you weren't referring to me then, but I don't see my endorsement of any of the above, and since you mentioned my name !

Jim Flaherty
The Chameleon Company, LLC

 

[The BoidSmith]

While people may be sympathetic to Aprylla's situation, you should not mix personal feelings with business. It's sad that bad things have happened to her (lost job, hurricanes, animals dying), however once you take the step to sell a product, you become a business. A customer has the right to a refund if a transaction can not be completed, whether that reason is out of someone's control or not.

Let me state that I don’t know Aprylla. The opinions I expressed were meant to be as unbiased as possible and completely unrelated to personal feelings. There is no doubt the customer has every right to receive his refund. But realistically, and dealing with real life situations there are differing circumstances. A person that spent the money in buying another reptile is a completely irresponsible act. A person who delayed shipping or refund because of a weather-related catastrophe is a completely different issue. If you are in the process of evacuation, should you be expected to go buy and send a money order to a person that’s waiting for your merchandise? It’s obviously the right thing to do, but is it a realistic expectation?

Regards.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Dan, I'm with you here ...

here's a piece of a prior post that we both have now quoted:

.....once you take the step to sell a product, you become a business. A customer has the right to a refund if a transaction can not be completed, whether that reason is out of someone's control or not.

And we all know of course, that once you're a business, everything is solved or guaranteed! Wish that would have fixed the problem several years back when I was left holding a plane ticket in the airport for an airline (I think it was Midwest?) that had just declared for bankruptcy protection that morning! Got my refund 60 days later! How about my refund from MCI (aka Worldcom) when I dropped them as a carrier, and tried to get about $100 in credit back from them! They sent me forms to fill out so that I could get on the waiting list !!

I don't want to reread every post to be able to say this with absolute certainty, but my recollection is that not a single entity here has questioned Shawn's right to a refund! HELLO !!

Jim Flaherty
The Chameleon Company, LLC

 

[sig1980]

Sorry CHAMCO,
Please don't take that as an attack on your post. So many people have accused me of (God help, I'm going to say it again) "Jumping the gun" that I lost track. When I tried to defend my position on at what point I filed the complaint, I used you as a reference my interpreting your statement "I might not have taken the steps Shawn took.." as filing the complaint at the time that I did. The two issues against me have been filing at the time I did and tying up her assets. I just chose that time to try and finally explain those issues, and since your post was the last one in the reference I described, I used it.
I have read this thing and have to say Geezus, folks. Liquidation of assets.... 6 figure businesses... common business practices... bankruptcy laws..... protection under act so and so... in violation of act so and so....
I know I am the newcomer here, and you all are supposed to be the experts on going off/staying on topic, BUT REALLY!
I DON'T CARE if she spent the money. I'm GLAD she had it to spend when she NEEDED it. If that pulled her through at a time when she was broke, it actually makes me feel good that I sent it and it was available. All I EVER wanted was something in return for my money. She offered the ultimatum that I would only get the animals if I dropped the complaint. After discussing it here amongst everyone I finally felt comfortable enough to do that. Today is the 29th, we'll see what happens from here.
By the way, I never insinuated that Aprylla did anything deceitful in opening the new PayPal account. I was just disappointed that she led everyone to believe I had taken away her only means of income when she was still doing business under another account. I never intended to deny her access to any funds other than the amount I had sent until shipment was made.

 

[critical bill]

my recollection is that not a single entity here has questioned Shawn's right to a refund! HELLO !!

Well Hello to you to!

I recommended that Aprylla send Shawn a refund via postal money order or personal check with tracking. Aprylla was concerned that Shawn would not drop the claim with PayPal and receive a double refund. Pretty strange. The guy who is screwed cant get a refund because the seller responsible for the screwing doesn't trust him. What an asinine transaction.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Now I understand ... thanks.

I used the word "might" because it was accurate in conveying that I did not know for sure, and like so many have acknowledged here, was not in your shoes. Threads in this board present a wide-range of opinions, and actually get most of their fuel from the continued participation of the particulars involved in the transaction ..... hint hint...... When you see references and tangents to things beyond the original scope of your complaint, its usually with regard to the context invoked by others as a basis for their opinion, not your original concerns or complaint. Ever been in a jury room? Once you initiate a thread, its now fair game as a playground for the rest of us to jib-jab.
I know this only addresses a small part of the events here, but I can relate to the hurricanes. My business had the eyes of three hurricanes pass over it last year. Some insured damage is still not repaired. I lost no animals, but with Hurricane Charley (the worst), did lose power for 8 days, but had a back-up generator for the critters and a few basic amenities. But no cable or phone access for 10 days (so no computer communication). And surprise of surprises, but the back-up power to most cell towers is awful. Over 200 cell towers rendered non-functional in Central Florida. Fortunately, with a 4 wheel-drive truck (nearby roads blocked by downed power poles) I was able to drive through orange groves to get to the good roads, and then drive 20 miles to get back in cell range, and let friends and family know I was OK. After 3 days, I only had to drive 10 miles, like I had the time for it! Sob story ? .... no, to hell with me !! But talk about the ability for a storm event to turn everything on its head, as with Isabelle for Jim O, and Dennis for Aprylla .... I hope that those of you who haven't had it happen don't find out. Overnight financial ruin is not out of the realm of possibilities.
I think you both had good points in this thread.

Jim Flaherty
The Chameleon Company, LLC

 

[Aprylla]

I am within a few hours of leaving to pick up the snakes. I will not be anywhere near a computer for the next couple of days. I will return on Sunday afternoon/night.

I just received the notice that Shawn did indeed cancel the PayPal dispute. I would like to personally and publically thank him for doing so. That does show a great deal of trust on your part and I do promise that I will not let you or anyone else down in this matter. My PayPal account IS still showing as "limited" (frozen) so I am guessing that it just takes PayPal a little extra time to review the account and take off the "limited" status. An e-mail has already been sent to them letting them know that I am aware the case that brought about my account being frozen has been canceled, and that I would appreciate their assistance ASAP to "unfreeze" my account (because it apparently didn't happen immediately like I thought it was supposed to when the compalint was cancelled).

Anyway, what I need to know from Shawn is this: do you want the snakes or do you want a refund...? I leave that 100% up to you. You can e-mail me privately, but I would also like for you to post your answer here as well, just so that everyone knows where everything stands who is interested.

As I said, I WILL be away from the computer for the next couple of days, so please don't anyone get concerned if I am not answering private e-mails or posting.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Originally posted by Critical Bill
Well Hello to you to!

I recommended that Aprylla send Shawn a refund via postal money order or personal check with tracking. Aprylla was concerned that Shawn would not drop the claim with PayPal and receive a double refund. Pretty strange. The guy who is screwed cant get a refund because the seller responsible for the screwing doesn't trust him. What an asinine transaction.

For the sake of argument, lets say that your opinion as quoted rings true, or at least is the concensus opinion. I will add that it is my opinion, in addition to yours, that Aprylla fundamentally agreed to Shawn's right to a refund as well, just as soon as some of the added baggage was removed, like getting the money herself by the 29th to be able to refund, and removing the potential for a double dip. If any entity out there did make the point that they felt Shawn had no fundamental right to a refund .... sorry, but I missed it.

Jim Flaherty
The Cameleon Company, LLC

 

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

Brett

Normally, I would be the first to agree with your statement above however, there is a variable in this situation that cannot be mentioned enough times......TWO BIG FREAKING BACK TO BACK HURRICANES!!!


.

While I'm a bit late to the party, the above is exactly how I feel, maybe because we went thru two hurricanes last year. I had minimal damage to my home and business, but it was still about 7-10 days before we were up and running at full speed after each. To expect the transaction to be completed in the timeframe before the complaint was filed was really unreasonable.

 

[Dennis1]

Twist This

Dan wrote

Regrettably we live in a society where the “legal mumbo jumbo” (as you chose to label it) protects every side of a transaction. The choice that was made here was between making sure the living creature’s well being was not jeopardized (both human and animal) or to fulfill the demands of a person to receive “merchandise” on a timely fashion. What would have been your choice?

I personally would have asked for her to refund my money in his situation
However i usually check here before i send money and after seeing her good reports i would have given her the benefit of the doubt


Chuck wrote

No, he didnt set out to freeze her account. But when Aprylla made it clear that in order for her to process the refund he had to lift the freeze what should have been done? This isnt rocket science. He wants his money back and Aprylla wants to send it back. Ther is only one way Aprylla could do that voluntarily, and that is with no freeze on her account.

And give up his only way of protecting himself ?...I wouldn't

Chuck wrote:

That is why we look so heavily to feedback and reputation. I dont believe he considered either and unforutnately that is quite neccessary to guage the appropriate level of action. Looking at Aprylla's it would be hard to imagine she is anything but decent and honest and that his actions were appropriate for this situation.

I agree.see above

Chuck Wrote:

Most sellers reserve the right to hold off on shipping when weather conditions do not permitt the safe travel of the animals. Most sellers would not offer a refund, timely or not, when weather (an act of god) adversly affects the anticipated date of delivery. This was the intial problem.

I must have been mistaken, I thought it was After she told him that they died
and spent his money and it would be at least 2 weeks before he could possibly get a refund?(all of this happened before the shipping process started)

Chuck Wrote:

Heh heh......I'd say you might find it tougher to now find a seller who will sell to you given what you wrote. Cooperation and consideration are key elements to a positive transaction. Your hard nose stance might have more than a few sellers shying away. Most sellers I think would prefer an aggravation free transaction with little to no unnecessary ass kissing over flipping a small profit......any day of the week.

LOL...Now thats funny
I dont ask sellers to kiss my ass, I ask for what i paid for In a timely manner
Without a bunch of B.S.
Doesnt the buyer deserve an "aggravation free transaction"


Chuck Wrote:

I really have to say that your remarks don't make you seem hard, but rather dumb and uncooperative. The affects of such comments might have you banned by quite a few sellers in anticipation that any unforeseeable situation would have you running to the BOI while giving no consideartion to their hard earned reputation.

Dumb? Im dumb but you cant understand tying up someone's money is wrong in any way shape or form
He trusted her to send his hard earned money but she couldnt trust him to give it back Gimme a Break
I got a better idea lets attack someone for protecting himself
I KNOW YOU CAN DO ALOT BETTER THAN THAT

Chuck Wrote:

BTW- is this the same name you use on reptibid?

Nope Its Lizardking1 ,Why do you wanna buy something?
if you do let me know im sure we could work something out in a PROFESSIONAL TIMELY MANNER. (at least on my end)


Laws Have Loopholes MORALS do not

 

[Dennis1]

Small World

Mr.Ohlstein Wrote:

I'm sorry but I have to wonder about all the people here who are commenting on "running a business". How many have actually "run a business"? I don't mean selling 50-100 reptiles a year or 10-20 items on ebay each month, but a real business with employees, fixed costs, variable costs, debt obligations, etc. It is not as simple as that

I am in the same business here
It kinda sucks when the insurance you buy takes 2-8 months to settle your claim and you have to keep making payments to your mortgage company
Been there done that...Man i feel for you

However i think you are comparing apple and oranges
I dont beleive anyone is attacking Ms.Hall
Just saying that Mr.Gilbert Did not jump the gun and did what he had to to protect himself

 

[Jim O]

I dont beleive anyone is attacking Ms.Hall
Just saying that Mr.Gilbert Did not jump the gun and did what he had to to protect himself

I wasn't directing my comments at you Dennis. There have been many comments of the variety as follows. I'm not picking on this author as there were several others.

Issue or no, I still believe that a smart business will have a safety net for transactions that may not go as planned. Let's face it, nothing is perfect and it's always best to be prepared for the worst, whether it's an accident during shipping, or a hurricane that prevents the transaction. A responsible seller does not spend the buyer's money until the transaction has been completed.

The fact is still that Aprylla has spent the buyer's money (though the money has since been replaced by other transactions) and her account is frozen because of her own actions. (Sending a tracking number for a receipt, therefore disputing the PayPal complaint and freezing the account.) Please correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like she basically froze her own account by sending the tracking number for a worthless piece of paper and now has no way of getting to her money.

While people may be sympathetic to Aprylla's situation, you should not mix personal feelings with business. It's sad that bad things have happened to her (lost job, hurricanes, animals dying), however once you take the step to sell a product, you become a business. A customer has the right to a refund if a transaction can not be completed, whether that reason is out of someone's control or not.

If you read my post just before that one you will see that I said there are no bad guys here.

 

[Sasheena]

I dont beleive anyone is attacking Ms.Hall

Actually Dennis, several people on here have expressed their opinion that Aprylla's lack of back up funds in this emergency was a sign of being a bad businessperson and if she doesn't have the backup funds for an emergency like this she should NOT be in business. This is the gist of what I have been hearing on here from some people.

ANYONE who says they have the backup funds for an emergency (any emergency) hasn't really had to deal with things going awry in our imperfect world.

LIFE happens. The material point here is: Will Shawn get some fat'n'sassy CB female Ball Pythons (or a refund)... WILL Aprylla fulfill her obligation to Shawn? I believe she will. It's just an unfortunate situation.

In actual fact I think that this is a sad case-in-point regarding the cancer that eats at the Herp industry: Bad Guys. If bad guys weren't a dime a dozen in this industry and were more rare, then neither of the two parties in this complaint would have had the complaint. If Shawn hadn't been ripped off before, and if Aprylla hadn't been ripped off before, they both might have trusted each other a little longer and things might have been resolved in an easier manner than this has turned out to be.

The worst thing is that PayPal has been the third party to these transactions, and everything is NOW dependent on them getting their little electronic rears in gear.

Shawn decided to put forth the hand of trust first, which says a lot for him. I strongly believe that Aprylla will do what is right by him. I hope she can do it when she said she would and that Paypal's molasses ways don't get in the way.

In short, in this thread, I think both parties are "good guys"... perhaps a few hasty choices were made, a few things which in retrospect should have been done a different way, but overall, we're seeing GOOD PEOPLE here.