Are care sheet protected by copyright laws???

[nicolai]

Below is a copy of a reply I posed in another thread, do you agree or disagree. All opinions welcome as i am trying to find out what is and is not legally acceptable concerning the use of caresheets. ( there has to be atleast one member here that is a "lawyer" and would know the applicable laws pertaining to this issue.------------------------------------------------------------------------



Here is my $.02

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WHAT IS NOT PROTECTED BY COPYRIGHT?Several categories of material are generally not eligible for federal copyright protection. These include among others:

Works that have not been fixed in a tangible form of expression (for example, choreographic works that have not been notated or recorded, or improvisational speeches or performances that have not been written or recorded)

Titles, names, short phrases, and slogans; familiar symbols or designs; mere variations of typographic ornamentation, lettering, or coloring; mere listings of ingredients or contents

Ideas, procedures, methods, systems, processes, concepts, principles, discoveries, or devices, as distinguished from a description, explanation, or illustration

Works consisting entirely of information that is common property and containing no original authorship (for example: standard calendars, height and weight charts, tape measures and rulers, and lists or tables taken from public documents or other common sources)
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The above was copied from "http://www.copyright.gov/" the governments web page outlining copyright laws and stipulations.
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Being that care sheet are a process or procedure for people to use in the care of reptiles they may not fall under the copyright laws. The pics would since they are considered a art form and are covered as such. When you are explaining a method as to how to care for something whether it is published or non-published any and all procedudures fall under the laws stated above. I do not believe Care sheets are considered a literary work, art form, or dramatic work to be considered for copyright covered as "original works of authorship".

I am not a lawyer or legal expert by any means and this is just my interpetation as i understand it from reading up on the copyright laws for the last 4 hours. I have posted questions related to this on 2 seperate legal forums to get true legal opinion on this and will post the outcome as soon aas possible.
__________________
Nicholas Bonn

 

[cthulhu77]

Where's Lucille?

I tend to agree with you Nich...since much of the information I have read on the caresheets in question seem to be one of experience gathered from several sources, who would actually have the copyright? This may be a case where the person posting them perhaps should have just asked first. I don't really see a case for copyright infringement, and unfortunately, in the art world, I do run into that a lot...

What is somewhat disturbing is the fact that we seem to avoiding the issue of what these care sheets are all about...aren't we supposed to be promoting the exchange of information? Not blocking it????

greg

 

[DejaGirl]

Where's Lucille?

I tend to agree with you Nich...since much of the information I have read on the caresheets in question seem to be one of experience gathered from several sources, who would actually have the copyright? This may be a case where the person posting them perhaps should have just asked first. I don't really see a case for copyright infringement, and unfortunately, in the art world, I do run into that a lot...

What is somewhat disturbing is the fact that we seem to avoiding the issue of what these care sheets are all about...aren't we supposed to be promoting the exchange of information? Not blocking it????

greg

Exactly my point previously. I don't get it sometimes, when something like a care sheet is available (even though) it is distributed without the permission of the original owner, some people will scream and yell about it - how ironic it is that the same happens when someone comes across as a new reptile owner and ignores the use of a proper care sheet.

If the information is available publicly through the Internet, then it should be accessed by all.

 

[DAND]

It is my understanding that when something written is covered by a copyright it has a circle around a (C), the date and the company which has provided the copyright. If it doesn't then it not covered by a copyright. To have something covered by a copyright it must be logged and a fee is required. If someone had gone through this process and their material has been used then they can pursue legal actions.

I seem to remember something previously posted about the issue of copyright protection for pictures. If I come across it I will post the link.

 

[nicolai]

wouldn't it be nice...

wouldn't it be nice if everyone would quit worrying about who did what or wrote what and just try to get good information out there to as many people as possible. Maybe we wouldnt have to keep reading horror stories about abandend, mistreated, malnourished, sickly animals all the time just because the owner didn't know how to properly care for the reptiles in his posession.

But what i was trying to figure out with this thread is what is the actual legal standpoint of care sheets themselves. No one really seems to know exactly where they stand legally.

If it were up to me all care sheet would be free and open to all people just so they could learn from them but this is coming from a person (me) that has never written one, so I would have nothing to loose only a lot to gain.

 

[DAND]

But what i was trying to figure out with this thread is what is the actual legal standpoint of care sheets themselves. No one really seems to know exactly where they stand legally.

I believe I answered that question in my previous post. If someone has had their care sheets protected by a copyright they would know it because they would have had to go through the copyright process. If you haven't protected your care sheets with a copyright then it fair game.

 

[nicolai]

i agree..

But is it actually possible to copyright a care sheet as defined by the copyright laws since it is either a process or procedure?

Does anyone actually know of anyone and i mean anyone that has a copyrighted care sheet.

I have just emailed them at the .gov site and posed the question to them.

 

[DAND]

Does anyone actually know of anyone and i mean anyone that has a copyrighted care sheet.

I just did a Yahoo search and the first one I checked has a copyright.

Here is the link:

http://www.chelonia.org/PDF_care_sheets.htm

So in other words, if you don't have a copyright, get one or it's fair game for the taking.

 

[nicolai]

So in other words, if you don't have a copyright, get one or it's fair game for the taking.

"Copyright © 2003 World Chelonian Trust. All rights reserved" is attatched to all thier care sheets.

Well thats proof enough for me!!!

Copyright it or expect to see it all over the web.

 

[Seamus Haley]

There's really a few issues here...

As to the legalities... I know that there are some forms of copyrights on intellectual property which are considered automatic and will hold up in court... Trademarking... or registering a copyright requires applying for such a status but I believe that ownership is automatically conffered on the creator of anything which could be considered intellectual property, I'm just not sure of the specifics involved.

There's a moral issue here too... It is simply unethical to take someone else's writing and pass it off as your own or post it ANYWHERE without permission. The argument of better education to the entire community doesn't hold water in this instance either- if you're able to disseminate information online then anyone reading it can damn well just check a link and get the same information. This thread arose out of an issue with stolen caresheets which were not credited to the original author and were reproduced without permission... That's simply unacceptable behavior given the WIDE range of alternatives and options avaliable to anyone looking to spread a little knowledge.

 

[WebSlave]

Well, this is certainly going to be an opinionated topic, for certain.

Does my taking a "ONE WAY STREET" sign and putting it on a public thoroughfare, make it actually a one way street?

If someone takes a bunch of information they have gathered from many and varied sources and posts that conglomeration of information, can they copyright the results?

If I tell you my experiences and YOU post that information, can you claim a copyright on that information that you got from me?

How much of the information published in the care sheets is comprised of original information discovered solely by the author?

So if a caresheet is published as being copyrighted, is it actually the information that is protected or is it the wording, as used by the author, that is actually copyrighted?

 

[Wilomn]

Does this relate is some strange way to the eternally asked but never answered "what is the sound of one hand clapping?"

Which is another way of saying there may be no real answer to this in general. It may be that it can only be decided on a case by case basis.

I am SOOOOOO glad I'm not published.

 

[dwedeking]

I think there are different levels of caresheets as well. A law here in california requires that you hand out a caresheet when you sell an animal. For species we are new to that we sell our care sheet is pretty basic, cut and dry. "temps = ", "substrate =", etc etc and usually a page long.

Compared to our bearded dragon caresheet which is 5 pages long and a 3 year process of collecting the most asked questions from new owners and trying to answer them.

I believe the first case would not be copyright-able while the second would be as it's an original work and not a regurgitation of just facts.

On the moral issue, I think the common courtesy would be to ask permission and give credit where it's due.

In reference to the post on the BOI, I live in the real world which is a multitude of shades of gray and I don't believe someone copying a caresheet for no monetary gain should be treated the same (or in some cases worse) than one who knowingly sells an IBD infected snake or a intentionally mis-represented snake ("hets" straight from the bush for example).

 

[nicolai]

Geesh...

Well, this is certainly going to be an opinionated topic, for certain.
Does my taking a "ONE WAY STREET" sign and putting it on a public thoroughfare, make it actually a one way street?
If someone takes a bunch of information they have gathered from many and varied sources and posts that conglomeration of information, can they copyright the results?
If I tell you my experiences and YOU post that information, can you claim a copyright on that information that you got from me?
How much of the information published in the care sheets is comprised of original information discovered solely by the author?
So if a caresheet is published as being copyrighted, is it actually the information that is protected or is it the wording, as used by the author, that is actually copyrighted?

Wow, and i thought it was complicated enough as it was you go and ask all that??? My head is spinning.
I agree that if a person has nothing to profit by using another persons care sheet then what is the harm??
If it is copyrighted like the ones shown above then we have no choice but to get permission or else face legal ramifications.
I vote for freedom of speech (or freedom of care sheets) depending on how you look at it.

 

[CheriS]

Wish I could get our attorney to answer these, as I spent a lot of time asking him questions about this to make sure I did not do something wrong.

There are a lot of opinions about this here, but I think most questions are pretty basic and covered at this url, this is by Brad Templeton and summarizes several issues relating to what is a copyright, rights of them on the internet, what is fair use, public domain and I've seen the "they are not selling it so its okay" statement several times here and this link also answers that
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

If you want to really get in depth with copyright and internet you can read this by Attorney Terry Carroll http://www.tjc.com/copyright/FAQ/

No it does not have to be registered to be enforceable or protected, registration gives you greater weigh in court proceedings
A copyright exist when a work on paper, canvas, disk, online, tape recording etc is made.
It does not matter if someone using your work is making money off it or not, its still a violation
If you gather anything, statement, article ... anything and comply it together, it is still not your work, it is the copyrighted work of the person(s) that originated it
If posted online, it is not public domain

For those that think people who object to others taking their work and reproducing it are trying to block information getting out that could benefit others.... that's pretty silly.

Think about this. Someone that does not know anything about the subject, but used others information, can not answer questions about it... they do not know it... they took the information from someone else.....which may be poor, good, excellent... they don't know.

Yet if it appears on their site, readers assume that the person is knowledgable about it and may listen to anything they say or ask for help that the person who took it and they can not accurately answer. Its getting accurate info out to those seeking it that is important...and being able to answer any questions about it with some degree of knowledge about the subject. A site that steals other's work can not do that, they know nothing about it...... could be putting up wrong or harmful information. Yet if they asked permission and include a link back to the source, people KNOW where they can go for more info or to ask additional questions

What is the problem about asking to use their work, linking back to the source so EVERYONE knows what is what and who can help answer their questions?

I can not remember anytime I have asked someone to let me use their info or someone has asked me to use mine and it not be granted.

No one doing this is trying to keep info from a needing public... if that was the case it would not be there in the first place!

 

[Ssthisto]

It is my understanding that when something written is covered by a copyright it has a circle around a (C), the date and the company which has provided the copyright. If it doesn't then it not covered by a copyright. To have something covered by a copyright it must be logged and a fee is required. If someone had gone through this process and their material has been used then they can pursue legal actions.

I'm an artist, and have been advertising my artwork through the internet for the last eight years (and defending my copyrights for just about as long) - and the idea that copyright must be registered and have notices attached in order to be legally copyrighted is a fallacy.

The moment a work (defined as art, writing, etc) takes physical form as opposed to being an idea, it is covered by copyright according to the Berne Convention - international copyright law. You don't HAVE to post a copyright notice with the correct symbol, company, year, anything. It doesn't have to be registered or logged in any way to be copyrighted and for the original artist or author to have all and exclusive rights to the work. I could, theoretically, post an unmarked, unsigned, previously unpublished piece of my art right here, right now - and still own exclusive rights to use it, and have the exclusive legal right to where it is published, how it is viewed, who can make money off of it, and so on.

However, _registering_ your copyright is the only way to get legal monetary damages out of a lawsuit brought as a result of an infringement - and you typically have to be able to prove loss of income or other monetary damages in order to get anything. Getting the copyright infringer to cease and desist using your copyrighted material is a legal right regardless of whether infringers make money from the use, what they use it for with the exception of fair use laws, etc.

And I'd be inclined to say that a caresheet falls between the idea of 'procedure' (not necessarily covered by copyright) and 'description' (which IS covered).

Honestly, if folk want to post caresheets on their sites, they really ought to read up on the animals in question - reading caresheets, etc - and then _write their own_. Having similar procedural instructions (same temps, same cage size, whatever) isn't infringement - having plagiarized word-for-word textual descriptions IS.

- Ssthisto

 

[reptilebreeder]

Honestly, if folk want to post caresheets on their sites, they really ought to read up on the animals in question - reading caresheets, etc - and then _write their own_. Having similar procedural instructions (same temps, same cage size, whatever) isn't infringement - having plagiarized word-for-word textual descriptions IS.

- Ssthisto

Thank You (and Seamus, also) I haven't lost all faith in humanity. There are at least a few people out there, besides myself, who feel "the right thing to do" is as important as whether a law is actually being violated.

 

[CheriS]

If someone has had their care sheets protected by a copyright they would know it because they would have had to go through the copyright process. If you haven't protected your care sheets with a copyright then it fair game.

No, the law is very clear on this, when it is created it is copyrighted, the process is writing it (or recording it) not adding name/notice © or registration. Those give your more options should you have to enforce it in court, but it is copyrighted from the time you create it whether you have that or not.

Rich asked some questions and I was able to ask a legal professional some of those this week. This is what he said:

Spoken words are not copyrighted, anything written whether the writer's word or another is copyrighted.

For what constitutes free use, the above quote is an example, the person who wrote that, has the right of copyright(it is his posting), but me using it as a quote is free use since I am addressing it, it is even further allow under some regulations as it appears within the same thread/site..... but that is not an absolute requirement. Another example that everyone can relate to is Email, that is actually copyright protected. I could not reproduce it in written form (that is his copyright protected work) without the writer's consent, but I can write about what he said.

It's not the information in something that is copyrighted, it is the created writing that is copyright protected. I can write that the dietary needs of an iguana is rich greens, veggies and flowers, my work that contains that is copyrighted but anyone else can write the same line in their own work and it does not violate my copyright. There are other laws that address someone who changes a few things and then claims it as their own and I will not go into that as it is so complex.

I do agree with many that there are varying degrees of violation, not doubt about that as the courts also use the extreme or mildness of the offense to judge the punishment. But I think no matter what it show something of a person's basic ethics and character.

A man who slaps his wife once is just as guilty of assault as the man that beats his wife with a bat, but both are wrong, one more severe than the other... but still wrong and says something about the person he is.

This should not be a big issue, if someone did not write it, they know....so don't use it and certainly do not claim it as your own! Asking permission is not a hard thing to do and I think that most people agree to it or give the person an option so they have use of it.

 

[Ken Harbart]

I believe I answered that question in my previous post. If someone has had their care sheets protected by a copyright they would know it because they would have had to go through the copyright process. If you haven't protected your care sheets with a copyright then it fair game.

That's a big negative. Works are copyrighted from the moment of creation. Registration is only necessary if one intends to seek civil damages due to infringement. From the US Copyright Office...

"In general, copyright registration is a legal formality intended to make a public record of the basic facts of a particular copyright. However, registration is not a condition of copyright protection. Even though registration is not a requirement for protection, the copyright law provides several inducements or advantages to encourage copyright owners to make registration."

 

[Glenn Bartley]

But is it actually possible to copyright a care sheet as defined by the copyright laws since it is either a process or procedure?

You missed the point, go back and read again what is and is not a copyrightable material. The care sheet is not a rpocess or procedure, the care sheet is a written description of a process or procedure and therefore a care sheet could be copyright material.

Someone also said, in essence, wouldn't it be nice just to get the information about herp care out there as opposed to worrying about copyright or who wrote it. No that would not be nice. Credit should be given where credit is due, and to copy something that someone else wrote and then put it out there as your own is dishonest, to say the least, in that it does not give proper credit. I have to wonder what is the problem with asking someone for permission to reprint their copyrighted work? Is that too hard to do, is that too much to ask, since the other person took the time and effort to write it in the first place?

I am the editor of my local herp society's journal, I ask for and receive such permissions on a regular basis. I am also turned down frequently. Those turn downs do not mean the info is not out there, just that the author chooses by which media to make it available. That is the author's prerogative as being the creator of the work. If you want to get info out there, why not write an original cares sheet of your own.

Best regards,
Glenn B