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Bad Guy Arizona Tortoise Compound (Withdrawing An Offer For No Reason)

D

dreisman

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Several months ago I contacted Arizona Tortoise Compound in regards to a
Trade for my 2 Large Aldabra Tortoises. I spoke with a gentlemen named
Andrew. When I told him about my Aldabra Trade, he was more than
overwhelmed at the thought of aquiring 2 Captive Bred Aldabras. From
our intial conversation, I told him that I would like to receive a few Radiated
hatchlings in return, he said "That would be fine" He asked me if I had a
permit, I told him I did not, I then went ahead and spent $200.00 and applied
for my permit. I finally received it. The retail value of my Aldabras is between
$6000 - $7000 As the radiated hatching time drew closer, Apparently Andrew
was getting very excited about the trade. I intially sent him 4 pics of my
Aldabras, which he immediately posted on his website, without my permission
before we had a deal in place. A day later he came back with an offer of 4 hatchlings, which I felt was way undervalued compared with my Aldabras. I
then sent him an e-mail asking for 5. He turned from Hot to Cold and abruptly
stated that I do not want to trade with you. He did not even give me the opportunity to think about the offer of 4 That is definately not the correct way to run a business. I even told Andrew That I had intentions of purchasing all my reptile supplies from ATC, which amounts to a large sum
over the years. A well seasoned business man would have never handled the'
deal in this manner, especially with a future customer. Also from our initial conversation Andrew expected a large amount of hatchlings. However all that hatched was 2 I will not have any further dealings with ATC, and I would encourage everyone else to do the same. There are many more companies out there that value theiir consumers and treat them in a more superior manner. David Reisman
 
A well seasoned business man realizes that a counter offer destroys the original offer. The offered deal of four no longer existed once you made an offer asking for five. It is not that the offer was withdrawn, according to contract law it did not exist after the counter offer.
It is in my opinion no mark whatsoever of a party if they withdraw from a trade while it is in a stage of negotiation prior to an agreement.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219649
 
I have dealt with Andrew on numerous occasions over the past several years, both selling and buying and have NEVER had a problem.

P.S. 4 radiated hatchlings can certainly equate to 6-7k. It really depends on the hatchlings.
 
Mr. Reisman, shame on you for posting this here as after reading your post I'm sure everyone will agree that ATC did nothing wrong and you are just trying to draw bad attention their way for no reason. As you stated above, your first conversation you asked for a few hatchlings and when the time came you wanted 5!? ATC was being more than fair offering 4 hatchlings for your Aldabras. You also state the retail value of your tortoises at 6-7k which is obviously not true because I've noticed your multiple listings over the past week for your Aldabras in the classified section, each day dropping your price more & sounding desperate as you were not listing a price in the last few adds & just taking best offer. Also both of your Aldabras have split scutes which does effect the value of your tortoises. ATC produces high quality animals and made you a fair offer. This seems like a pretty straight forward case, you thought your tortoises were worth more than what they are and found that out when you tried to post them and they didn't sell. You then try to bring bad attention towards ATC. Since you can never remove this post, you owe ATC a HUGE public apology for even starting this problem for them. You are in the wrong and it is time to man up and admit it.
 
Davids quote...

"Several months ago I contacted Arizona Tortoise Compound in regards to a
Trade for my 2 Large Aldabra Tortoises. I spoke with a gentlemen named
Andrew. When I told him about my Aldabra Trade, he was more than
overwhelmed at the thought of aquiring 2 Captive Bred Aldabras. From
our intial conversation, I told him that I would like to receive a few Radiated
hatchlings in return, he said "That would be fine" He asked me if I had a
permit, I told him I did not, I then went ahead and spent $200.00 and applied
for my permit. I finally received it. The retail value of my Aldabras is between
$6000 - $7000 As the radiated hatching time drew closer, Apparently Andrew
was getting very excited about the trade. I intially sent him 4 pics of my
Aldabras, which he immediately posted on his website, without my permission
before we had a deal in place. A day later he came back with an offer of 4 hatchlings, which I felt was way undervalued compared with my Aldabras. I
then sent him an e-mail asking for 5. He turned from Hot to Cold and abruptly
stated that I do not want to trade with you. He did not even give me the opportunity to think about the offer of 4 That is definately not the correct way to run a business. I even told Andrew That I had intentions of purchasing all my reptile supplies from ATC, which amounts to a large sum
over the years. A well seasoned business man would have never handled the'
deal in this manner, especially with a future customer. Also from our initial conversation Andrew expected a large amount of hatchlings. However all that hatched was 2 I will not have any further dealings with ATC, and I would encourage everyone else to do the same. There are many more companies out there that value theiir consumers and treat them in a more superior manner. David Reisman"

I'm very sorry you posted this thread David and feel this way.
.
The two Aldabras listed on my site were purchased last year from a friend locally and were sold to Victor Martin Klatt in California. Here is a link to Arizona Tortoise Compound facebook page with photos, dates and Victor thanking us for the Aldabras.

https://www.facebook.com/1798576953...9857695368687/588817144472738/?type=1&theater

David, I never posted your Aldabras for sale, and would never do such a thing before a purchase. Second, as to the Radiated hatchlings again you are not correct on what you stated in the thread. Six have hatched out so far and all were sold already. More clutches will be hatching very soon. Facebook is the best place to follow along with what Arizona Tortoise Compound does, if anyone would like to see the eggs, hatchlings, adults, info, pricing, ect it is all there.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Arizona-Tortoise-Compound/179857695368687

Ok, I have all the emails from David. Last year David emailed asking if I would be interested in trading a ten lot of Pardalis Pardalis Leopard hatchlings for his Aldabras, I said yes of coarse. The deal would of been in my favor by a large margin. So, Yes I was wanting to do the trade. David then decided he wanted Radiated hatchlings instead of the P.p. Leopards. I told him that the Radiateds would not be hatching until next year and he needs a permit to receive Radiata. He said he would get his permit and wanted to wait for the Radiateds to hatch. I told him, next year when they hatch I would contact him. So the first clutches hatched out the following year. I contacted David and asked him to remind me of our potential trade. He stated he wanted 5 Radiated hatchlings and we would split the shipping costs. David also told me he never shipped before and would need help with the process. I told David I would be willing to do the trade for 4 Radiated hatchlings and he would need to cover the shipping costs. David felt that his Aldabras were worth more then that, so he told me the deal was off. I sold all the hatchlings shortly after that. David posted his Aldabras on Fauna and started the price at 5600 plus shipping. He thought that he could quickly sell the Aldabras for the price of the Radiateds hatchlings and then just purchase the Radiateds from me. The Aldabras he posted for sale went from 5600 to 5000 then down to 4600, now he has his ad up saying taking offers. It sounds like David found out the Aldabras are not as good as gold like the original breeders tell everyone one.

I just received this email from David on the 27th of March, yesterday.....

Hello Andrew: My Aldabras are getting quite large for their enclosure they are
apropx 11" and weigh 10 - 11lbs. when you rub their necks thay stand all the way up you can hand feed them. They really are beautiful, and of course very well cared for. I realize that you originally gave me a fair offer, and I was foolish to ask for a 5th. If I would agree to accept your original offer of 4 hatchling Radiated and you would pay the shipping charges, do you think we can make a deal. I have the special insulated shipping box for the Aldabras. I am hoping we can put the past behind us and move forward. And yes,
I do have my Radiated permit which cost me $200.00. Furthermore I intend to purchase various supplies, from ATC. Thank you Andrew In advance for your consideration to this deal. David Reisman

I responded to him this morning telling him we could still work out a cash deal since I still would be interested in the Aldabras. Then I started getting blasted with emails from others directing me to the BOI threads. As Im reading the thread Im getting emails from David. All the emails Im getting from David this morning is after he posted the bad guy thread and he still hasnt stated that he posted this bad guy thread. Here is the last two emails from him just 20 mins ago....

Email 1
Hi Andrew: Thank you for getting back to me. It has been a while since I last spoke to you. First question what do you think would be a fair price for my 2 Aldabras? Question # 2 when do you think you might have more radiated hatchlings. The last time I spoke to you you told me that you expect to have plenty of them from several bloodlines. please let me know
thanks, Andrew.

Email 2
Hi Andrew: Sorry to bother you again, I am just trying to weigh my options. I see you have siri lanken stars. How many would you be willing to give me in trade. I just want to decide which way to go. So its the cash price, waiting for the radiated hatchlings, or the stars. that would be my 3 choices. I just feel bad about the permit that I spent $200.00 for.

In final, I have not done anything mis-leading. I've been more then fair to David and responded in a timely manner. Since this thread has been started I feel I do not want to ever do business with David and I feel others should learn about him in this thread. I am choosing to send David a final email after I post this response and I will be letting David know in a respectful way that I do not want to communicate with him ever again and he is no longer welcome to contact me or Arizona Tortoise Compound for anything. I reserve the right to choose who I do business with just like others can choose. I hope this cleared up the thread and mis-understanding.
 
dreisman said:
RUSH TO JUDGEMENT
Click to expand...

You managed to make your initial post here twice, you first wrote it on another thread and I guess since you didn't feel that was loud enough, repeated it here.
How many sellers in the future are going to want to deal with someone who puts up TWO bad guy posts in his rush to judgment?

There are both good guy and bad guy posts concerning ATC in other threads. This complaint here was not valid, in my opinion.
 
Final email to David, just sent....

Oh my, David. I just got wind of the BIO post you started.
Please understand, that I do not want to have any further dealings with you due to the thread being started. It takes many years of hard work and trying very hard to have a upstanding business with a good name and only takes a half second for someone to post a bad guy thread and ruin what has been worked so hard for. If you google my name Andrew Hermes you will now see your thread stating I'm a bad guy. I reserve the right to choose to not communicate with you any longer and for Arizona Tortoise Compound not to sell you any tortoises or supplies. I'm very sorry you chose to feel this way about me and my company. I still stand behind everything I did and am doing. Please do not email me any longer.

Best of luck to you in your life! Have a good day.
 
This thread is ill-founded and will only blow back negatively on the thread starter. The number of sellers who will take this as a warning is not limited to Andrew.

More than one person has noticed the rapid price drops for the Aldabra pair. Someone wanted to offer the seller counsel in that regard. He was too impatient and he made a number of different marketing mistakes in his advertisements (which I am in no rush to explain) that reeked of desperation and impending future price reductions, so the sharks were circling in the background and waiting until he would practically be giving them away (which was something folks felt sympathetic about...until this thread was started). One needs to either stick to the price and be patient, start with a more attractive price and be patient, or offer deal options that are more attractive to multiple buyer segments. The OP did not succeed in any of these three paths. Depending on size and quality of the Aldabras and the quality of radiata hatchlings available, that could have been a viable deal, but is no longer an option because of bizarrely concurrent oppositional behaviors. Reputation has value, as it translates into easing future sales. When one acts to tarnish reputation, one potentially impedes future sales. If a person is being accused of poor dealings and is not guilty of those particular poor dealings, it should serve as no surprise that said person is not going to award such behavior due to the impact on the person's business as well as out of simple self-respect.
 
I have also dealt with Andrew on several occasions and have had "no" bad experiences. Andrew always seems to deliver good animals and is honest about where they came from. He always tries to give as much information as possible.

Mr. Reisman, you were very quick to judge and did not even realize they were not your animals that Andrew has posted. The damage has already been done with you posting this thread. It probably would be best if you get all the facts first in the future before starting another thread here.
 
I think it's important to look at ALL BOI THREADS PERTAINING TO AN INDIVIDUAL OR BUSINESS before rushing into anything.

And I also think there's still a dead radiated issue that Arizona Turtle/Andrew is responsible for and refuses to correct.
 
Since when does "withdrawing an offer" make you a bad guy?? Negotiations go back and forth, minds are changed, they aren't set in stone until both parties agree. Politely saying you're not interested after a deal is offered shouldn't qualify you for a bad guy thread. Jeeze. People need to calm down with making these (PERMANENT) threads about every little thing.

I just read the apology/good-guy thread the OP posted. Good on him for apologizing.
 
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