Attention Ron Billingsley Customers!

[snakemom1961]

From what I read in the OP. The vet found something she wasn't familiar with with normal mites/ticks on snakes and that was why she chose to send it for further study. Was she wrong in doing so? I think NOT. If there was a chance this tick was able to carry some disease that could affect other animals she was doing the right thing. If it's found out nothing was wrong. She still did the right thing because she didn't recognize that certain tick/mite. Kudo's to the vet for making the right choice!

 

[Cat_72]

I asked a question - those who disagreed really never answered. I think I know why.

Q - Have you ever found a tick or mite on one of your reptiles?

Q - If the answer is yes, did you (or your vet) submit said mite to a pathology lab for testing and alert the federal authorities?

Q - If not, why not? If this is what should be done, why aren't you doing it?

Yes, I have found an identifiable, common mite on a snake I purchased. I treated it, and was done with it.

However, even if I personally found a tick or mite that did NOT look like anything I had ever seen before, if nothing else, out of curiousity, I would probably ask a vet to try to ID it. If a reptile vet could not ID it, or recognised it as a parasite known to carry a devastating disease, you're dang right I would expect it to be sent in for pathology. Again, the vet is not the one who alerted the authorities, it was the LAB. They are required by LAW to report this kind of thing.

For all those who are applauding the involvement of pathology labs and governmental notification for every tick or mite -- and yet you have not invited this scrutiny into your own homes and collections -- I suggest that your actions and words don't line up.

Perhaps if our words are "not lining up" for you, you simply aren't reading them correctly. NO ONE here is inviting any kind of "scrutiny" for every single mite and/or tick....only the ones that could potentially cause devastating consequences....not only to the snake it is on, or our collection, or ourselves, but the ENTIRE BEEF INDUSTRY as we know it. Billions of dollars, millions of lives.

Both Jenna's vet and Jenna did everything completely as it should have been done. If this turns out to be nothing....well, we can all breathe a sigh of relief and be reminded how vigilant we need to be about quarantine procedures and such. If it turns out to be something like Heartwater, we can breathe a much bigger sigh of relief, because a potentially devastating outbreak may have been stopped by their actions, and not only can we still go to Burger King and have a burger, there won't be millions of farmers with no income, cattle dying, and general financial upheaval throughout the country. Stop with the "I know what I'm doing, I'm too smart to have to ask a vet about a stupid mite" and think about the BIG PICTURE....the one outside of your little world.

 

[redbird]

Just keepin' it real

Final post from the only one who will say it out loud.

Dozens (if not hundreds) of people who read these threads have found mites and ticks on new imports and CB animals...including some previous posters who claim to be active professional importers.

As of yet, not a single one has stepped up and said:

"Yes, that's exactly what I did - I found a mite, and had my vet take it to a pathology lab for investigation. It happened 8 times last year - I went through a federal quarantine each time, closed down my business each time, spent weeks and months without moving a single animal in or out."

The reason no one is saying that is simple - no one is doing it. You get a shipment from africa with ticks/mites - you treat it, you kill the bugs, you sell them. That is EXACTLY what is going on in the real world. And some of the same people who enjoy talking about the big picture still can't get honest about how they PERSONALLY are dealing with the issue in their own collections/businesses. We aren't talking about what you would do, or might do -- what have you actually done when you found a bug? Talk about that, OK?

Actions speak louder than words. I have already told you what I do when a mite/tick is found -- exactly the same thing the rest of you do. So far, no one has said that they personally have ever done any different.

If you are saying that due to the gravity of this situation, breeders/dealers/importers should start sending ticks & mites for pathology reports and involve the government when they see a bug on their snake - then I salute you. Lead the pack. Put your money where your mouth is. Do it yourself. Those of you with businesses - let me know how that all turns out for you. Dying to hear it.

Last comment. Not mad. Don't need enemies.

 

[Cat_72]

Are you unable to comprehend what has been written, or just choosing not to?

I have told you what I HAVE DONE when I found a mite. It was an identifiable critter, and I killed it. Perhaps you missed that. It would be a completely different scenario if it has been something unidentifiable. Perhaps no one here, until now, has actually found themselves in that predicament. And it's a wonder why perhaps people do think twice about speaking out, with someone like you telling them that they shouldn't have.

If you are saying that due to the gravity of this situation, breeders/dealers/importers should start sending ticks & mites for pathology reports and involve the government when they see a bug on their snake

Um, I specifically stated in my last post that was NOT my point, perhaps you missed that as well. There is a difference between finding a NORMAL COMMON MITE and one that is either unidentifiable, or one that is a known carrier of a dangerous disease.

And did you stop to think that perhaps you are the only one saying these things out loud, because you are the only one who just doesn't seem to "get it"?

 

[Lucille]

Final post from the only one who will say it out loud.

Dozens (if not hundreds) of people who read these threads have found mites and ticks on new imports and CB animals...including some previous posters who claim to be active professional importers.

As of yet, not a single one has stepped up and said:

"Yes, that's exactly what I did - I found a mite, and had my vet take it to a pathology lab for investigation. It happened 8 times last year - I went through a federal quarantine each time, closed down my business each time, spent weeks and months without moving a single animal in or out."

The reason no one is saying that is simple - no one is doing it. You get a shipment from africa with ticks/mites - you treat it, you kill the bugs, you sell them. That is EXACTLY what is going on in the real world. And some of the same people who enjoy talking about the big picture still can't get honest about how they PERSONALLY are dealing with the issue in their own collections/businesses. We aren't talking about what you would do, or might do -- what have you actually done when you found a bug? Talk about that, OK?

Actions speak louder than words. I have already told you what I do when a mite/tick is found -- exactly the same thing the rest of you do. So far, no one has said that they personally have ever done any different.

If you are saying that due to the gravity of this situation, breeders/dealers/importers should start sending ticks & mites for pathology reports and involve the government when they see a bug on their snake - then I salute you. Lead the pack. Put your money where your mouth is. Do it yourself. Those of you with businesses - let me know how that all turns out for you. Dying to hear it.

Last comment. Not mad. Don't need enemies.

I'm glad it's your last comment because you are in my opinion irresponsible by saying that most people just treat mites and go on. That may be true, it does not affect that in this case, vet care was a good choice. Here, the vet noticed something different and took appropriate action.

Your implication is that no one need buy insurance, or get vaccination, because after all it is only the few that are harmed and most people never need anything like that.
The fallacy is that sometimes, a disease will infect millions; whether the infection affects animals or people the consequences are still far reaching; and the devastation of an epidemic can be sometimes prevented by astute observation and professional follow up.

 

[redbird]

I know, I know, I said I was done, but....

Last bit that I forgot to address regading the "I think I'm so smart" issue -

How many out there are really qualified to compare mites/ticks (since we wanted to talk about "average, every-day mites" not needing to be investigated)?

I would bet that most collectors/importers/breeders do not have the qualifications to tell one tiny mite/tick from another. I would bet that the average vet doesn't -- many of them barely have a working knowledge of herp pathology. All most of us can say with certainty is that SOME bugs can carry a disease. Again, if we are all so altruistically concerned with the big picture -- why isn't anyone sending all these bugs out and alerting the authorities?

I do know this one thing about every tick and mite ever born -- dead ones don't spread disease.

Mike Bostic

 

[liquidleaf]

The other thing you might not be taking into account is - this particular tick probably lived through normal treatment.

Do you think that most people who put an animal through external parasite treatment saw ONE type of tick that lived through it, they might have it tested? Maybe, maybe they'd just crush it. Resistant strains of any organism can be worrisome and are a real concern.

But you're missing the point. The OP was not familiar with external parasites, and was not wrong in taking the snake to the vet. The vet was not wrong in passing the tick to the lab. The lab couldn't ID it and contacted the government, creating this situation. Perhaps thousands of the same sort of tick are killed every day when importers treat their shipments, perhaps not. No, it wouldn't make logistical sense for every importer/dealer to keep every tick they find and have it identified. But if they did notice a very strange one, should they just sweep it under the rug and ignore it? Or should they take it in for identification and risk some inconvenience? It's a question of ethics. Some will always say "yes!" and some will say "no" as you are saying.

The point is that if an unusual and possibly dangerous specimen IS encountered and identified, why not send it in? Why hush it up for the purpose of not endangering our hobby, when the consequences of letting it slip might start an epidemic?

Please don't look down your nose at the person who does decide to bring attention to a possibly dangerous specimen. Your opinion is clear. The issue, however, is not a clearcut one. But I think the OP did the right thing. Can it cause negative issues within our hobby? Sure, but unlike some things (like fear of snakes causing legislation to be created against reptile keeping), this particular issue shows a real possible danger beyond just danger to the hobby.

 

[kmurphy]

Michael, I can't figure out the reason for your last two posts. I couldn't find the post (the one you must be referring to) that stated that everyone should turn the mites and ticks they find, on African imports, into the feds.

Most of the events that occured in this thread were out of the OP hands and she was just relating what happened.

 

[redbird]

LiquidLeaf: OK, I must admit...

That last post was extremely intelligent, reasonable and well-thought-out. And yes, I was probably having way too much fun with the previous posters (can't help it - the self-righteous types who angrily support the virtues of one behavior while actively practicing another have always been a source of entertainment for me).

Jenna is young, presumably fairly new to the hobby. If I read her age right, I've been keeping herps longer than she's been alive. She was not sure what to do -- cared about the animals and wanted to the right thing. All laudable. I wasn't criticizing her - honestly. Again, my choice of words should have been better.

I am still less than impressed with the vet - we have already discussed why. And yes, I agree we need to protect the hobby. I tend to think that less government involvement in our business is the best way to accomplish that - we can agree to disagree.

I was just trying to be real about how this problem is handled, effectively, every day - without involving burearocrats (whom I instinctually distrust!)

Smile- be happy.
No hard feelings.

Mike

 

[Jim O]

I am still less than impressed with the vet - we have already discussed why

Mike,

You just can't help yourself can you? The vet saw something that was not familiar to her and sent it off to the lab. It turned out that it may have been something rather significant. What's there not to be impressed about the vet doing her job properly?

To put this in perspective, imagine if that tick were on your child. Would you want the doctor to ignore something because it was unfamiliar? This was a professional doing her job properly by asking for help on something unusual and unfamiliar. That's good medicine!!! Sorry if you're simply too dense to understand that, or too stuck in your way of thinking.

 

[redbird]

KMurphy - reply

The reason for my last two posts was to dispute two other posters who disagreed with my original assertion and got a personal stick lodged in their hindquarters:

That I personally would choose a less reactive vet, that it was probably a bad idea (on the vet's part) to get this snow-ball rolling over a tick or mite - particularly in light of the fact that the vet could not identify it. Before I have a vet sending a mite out for pathology, before I want the feds contacted and my house quarantined - I'd like some reasonable assurance that the vet has identified the critter as a hazard. A vet who simply starts all this rolling because they can't identify a parasite is not one I'd choose to work with. I personally prefer to work with a vet who is qualified to identify the bugs and capable of killing them. Or better yet, I'd just prefer to kill the bugs immediately myself. Never met one that wouldn't die! .

The other posters - who admit that this is EXACTLY the way they have handled external parasites in their own collections (provide a quarantine area & kill the bugs) called me irresponsible for simply stating what is common, accepted practice in our hobby - to include their own collections.

Their harsh words just hurt my feelings (sniffle!)
Not really - I just like telling the truth.

PS - you will note:
So far, no licensed professional importer has stepped up to say they personally engage in any other practice beyond that which I suggested - JUST KILL THE BUGS!

 

[Lucille]

Have you ever noticed that people who vehemently say 'this is my last post' and come back again and again and again seem to simply be trolling for arguments?

 

[Otter_23]

So if after the tests it comes back as something that could cause serious problems for either the herp industry or the cattle industry, would you still consider it a bad move by the vet? Although I haven't had ticks or mites (been lucky I guess) in my collection I would probably treat them and move on, if however I took my reptile in to check on its health (for whatever reason) and the vet felt they needed to check deeper into whatever it is i would appreciate that. I prefer a proactive vet, doctor etc... rather than a reactive one. Sounds like you would prefer to have things become a problem before you do anything about it.

For instance I'll have check ups even if I feel healthy and if the doctor finds a lump he can't readily identify I would hope he would investigate it further instead of take the attitude that it hasn't seemed to effect me yet. I guess it really is just a differing opinion. I prefer proactive to reactive.

 

[Bill & Amy]

The reason for my last two posts was to dispute two other posters who disagreed with my original assertion and got a personal stick lodged in their hindquarters:

That I personally would choose a less reactive vet, that it was probably a bad idea (on the vet's part) to get this snow-ball rolling over a tick or mite - particularly in light of the fact that the vet could not identify it. Before I have a vet sending a mite out for pathology, before I want the feds contacted and my house quarantined - I'd like some reasonable assurance that the vet has identified the critter as a hazard. A vet who simply starts all this rolling because they can't identify a parasite is not one I'd choose to work with. I personally prefer to work with a vet who is qualified to identify the bugs and capable of killing them. Or better yet, I'd just prefer to kill the bugs immediately myself. Never met one that wouldn't die! .

The other posters - who admit that this is EXACTLY the way they have handled external parasites in their own collections (provide a quarantine area & kill the bugs) called me irresponsible for simply stating what is common, accepted practice in our hobby - to include their own collections.

Their harsh words just hurt my feelings (sniffle!)
Not really - I just like telling the truth.

PS - you will note:
So far, no licensed professional importer has stepped up to say they personally engage in any other practice beyond that which I suggested - JUST KILL THE BUGS!

Most importers kill the bugs at there facilities on receipt of the animals. You are just putting this arguement out there to justify the ridiculous statements you posted earlier in this thread.

What idiot called the feds?

If it was your vet - change vets. Look for someone a little less reactive. Set up a quarantine area for all your new herps - to include no-pest strips. Problem solved.

If YOU called the feds - what were you THINKING???
I hope you learn from this - (hard lesson - tough break).

The responsible thing was done, end of story. What licensed importers of ball pythons have replied to this thread that you are waiting on an answer from? I haven't seen any on this thread that fall into that category.

 

[Cheryl Marchek AKA JM]

I'd kind of like to hear some updates from the original poster. All this argueing may be entertaining~
But I'd like to know exactly what kind of tick it infact was~ exactly what the tick had that got the feds involved, is the snake "infected" with whatever it was the tick had, and exactly what threat the contagion (IF it is one) poses.

Please update us when you know~
I'm very interested
Thank you

 

[CurtisF]

I'd kind of like to hear some updates from the original poster. All this argueing may be entertaining~

Heh, I wouldn't give it credit and call it an argument, more like a slaughter

Yeah, I agree, though. I'd like to hear more about this. It is very interesting.

 

[garweft]

I am still less than impressed with the vet - we have already discussed why. And yes, I agree we need to protect the hobby. I tend to think that less government involvement in our business is the best way to accomplish that - we can agree to disagree.

I was just trying to be real about how this problem is handled, effectively, every day - without involving burearocrats (whom I instinctually distrust!)

This is what it really boils down to in your mind. You will defend the hobby, all the while showing others why some think legislation is needed.

You would rather someone sweep, a potentially devastating disease that could bring a billion dollar a year industry to it's knees, under the rug. All because you want to keep the BP market saturated with cheap imports? Trying to keep the government out of the hobby by lying and covering up potential problems is not going to work. I know that you don't trust the government, but you ramblings make us all look like irresponsible keepers trying to hide potential problems.

 

[fuscusking13]

So michael I have to ask you a question. Lets say you got in an imported snake from a country that has brought in infectious diseases in the past, and there is the threat of new ones coming in on reptiles specifically. You know it comes from a reputable person who has definately treated the animal for external parasites. You take it to the vet for a check up-which seems to be a very wise move in my opinion. This vet, who I might remind you has been through 8+ years of schooling on this subject(and who knows how many years in the business) finds an external parasite that has survived treatment and she can not idenify through his/her knowledge and resources. She does her job and reports it to someone who has more knowledge of the subject specifically than she has available to her, and they feel it neccesary to report over their own head and involve someone who looks into this kind of stuff for a living. Now you are telling me this isnt right or commonplace??? I'll tell you if I lived in the area I would use a vet that did what she was supposed to do, and did it well and fast I might add. Jenna did not take the snake to the vet for external parasites if you took the time to read her original post...she wanted the vet to run something like fenbendazole or metronidazole thru the animal since Ron did not treat her internally due to her being gravid. The vet upon examination discovered this external parasite, which should not have been on a snake treated for such. I think you are missing the whole point here and going off on a topic with out any basis. Jenna never said she took the snake to the vet because of a mite and/or tick. She took it to be treated internally since she had not done this before, which is the wise move since you never know what an over or under dose a medication could do to an animal. Jenna on a personal note you did what any responsible person would do from the very beginning right up to posting this to let everyone know. Ron being a good guy, as everyone has stepped up to say most likely appreciates it most of all. No one with a conscience wants to sell anything less than perfect animals that are problem free, unless its disclosed in advance. I wish you all the best, and hope yourself, your ball python, and the rest of your collection stay in perfect health!!!!! Thanks for posting, Dan M.

 

[evansnakes]

What is done is done. The seller should have ensured the animal was free of parasites before he shipped it. Now the only thing that really matters is for the tick to be identified and tested and to hope that it does not carry any note-worthy pathogens or then we face the next step. The harsh reality is that when you would put the potential loss in economic perspective of an industry like beef cattle (staying with the heartwater concept), it is so much larger and more important to our national and the global economy then the little tiny reptile industry, that we will be devasted by the resulting government actions. That is where I personally get conflicted because as much as I am against all anti-reptile legislation, putting things into perspective as I just did in proportionate importance and scope to our economy, it is hard to argue against the government acting to prevent a disaster like that from happening.

So what it boils down to in my opinion is simple. The Americans and Africans in the 3 countries in Africa that ship the animals to the USA will need to be more alert and aware of the potential for the ticks to end their income (which over there is a very serious threat for some) and they need to get the ticks off the snakes prior to shipping. Past that, people here who receive the shipments MUST be held responsible for destroying the bugs as soon as they get the animals in. The current lax attitude will wipe us out. It is very selfish at this stage of the game to not know what is going on with the legal end of the business and just ship wild caught animals without concern about issues like this, not caring if you take away the business' so many have built up for so long just to make a quick buck.

And just so you all know, at the federal level there has been discussion about banning the importation of ball pythons and all reptiles for several years now. If they get good excuses from us to do it, do you think they won't?

 

[Joe Hiduke]

I will again encourage everyone concerned about this issue to consider joining PIJAC and supporting the National Reptile Improvement Plan. Here's a link to the PIJAC website, the link on the NRIP program is on the left hand side.

PIJAC

This program was developed with input from prominent figures in the reptile industry, as well as input from folks in the agriculture industry and in the state Department of Agriculture. The reptile industry in Florida has a good relationship with the folks in Tallahassee on both the wildlife side and the ag side of our regulations. The state has created two seats for the reptile industry on the Animal Industry Technical Council, an advisory group to the Department of Ag.

I agree with the sentiment that we really don't want the government involved in our industry, but they are going to be whether we want it or not. We've seen an opportunity here in Florida to help steer the regulations in a direction that the industry can live with.

Joe Hiduke