Bad Guy Bad Business Deal - Mike West - Don't Make the same mistake I did!!

[LauraB]

Laura...I was talking about MY gut response, lol.

Oh.


Well, I'm still going to play devil's advocate. What I see here is someone who admittedly had no prior experience with herps, who admits she's an adult and responsible for her unfortunate decision and who didn't (for whatever reason) have a written contract. She got in over her head and is paying the price. Shame on her for being duped once and thought she could make some quick cash (no such thing in the herp trade!) ... hopefully hard lesson learned.
Now she is trying to warn others should they also be approached.

What I also see are two grown men approaching someone with no herp experience with a "business opportunity" ... two grown men who may or may not have the ability to "fast talk" and already have something of a dubious history here. Again ... why would the Wests, who do have experience in keeping & vending herps approach a total novice with their "business opportunity"? Why would they not just buy their own dragons, breed them and sell them?

I admit I can be a dolt (lol, Bolt the Dolt) ... but would someone explain that to me please?

 

[spyder79]

Oh.


Well, I'm still going to play devil's advocate. What I see here is someone who admittedly had no prior experience with herps, who admits she's an adult and responsible for her unfortunate decision and who didn't (for whatever reason) have a written contract. She got in over her head and is paying the price. Shame on her for being duped once and thought she could make some quick cash (no such thing in the herp trade!) ... hopefully hard lesson learned.
Now she is trying to warn others should they also be approached.

What I also see are two grown men approaching someone with no herp experience with a "business opportunity" ... two grown men who may or may not have the ability to "fast talk" and already have something of a dubious history here. Again ... why would the Wests, who do have experience in keeping & vending herps approach a total novice with their "business opportunity"? Why would they not just buy their own dragons, breed them and sell them?

I admit I can be a dolt (lol, Bolt the Dolt) ... but would someone explain that to me please?

Did the OP state that the wests approached her? or did she contact them in response to an ad about a "rare business opportunity"?

 

[deborahbroadus]

Oh.


Well, I'm still going to play devil's advocate. What I see here is someone who admittedly had no prior experience with herps, who admits she's an adult and responsible for her unfortunate decision and who didn't (for whatever reason) have a written contract. She got in over her head and is paying the price. Shame on her for being duped once and thought she could make some quick cash (no such thing in the herp trade!) ... hopefully hard lesson learned.
Now she is trying to warn others should they also be approached.

What I also see are two grown men approaching someone with no herp experience with a "business opportunity" ... two grown men who may or may not have the ability to "fast talk" and already have something of a dubious history here. Again ... why would the Wests, who do have experience in keeping & vending herps approach a total novice with their "business opportunity"? Why would they not just buy their own dragons, breed them and sell them?

I admit I can be a dolt (lol, Bolt the Dolt) ... but would someone explain that to me please?

Well, I'll try.

It's called Free Enterprise (I am NOT being sarcastic)...I am making a funny... It happens all the time when sales savy people get others with no experience to start up a franchise... that usually benefits the seller.. promising to teach them all they need to know and to provide guidance.

Apparently the Wests did just that.

HOWEVER..while they were sly, they weren't necessarily the "bad guys" in this case. Greed and the lure of "easy money" is always a good "hook." IMO..and only in my opinion...the business is a no-brainer..really. A bit of real research and a "feel" for it has lead to a moderate success in breeding (not making profit) for many of us. It is disheartening that the OP has been unable to be successful even in producing viable eggs on a regular basis...perhaps she needs to develop her own skills at this point?....

...now the voices in my head are tired and telling me to shut up..I dislike writing long wordy posts.

Others can add or flesh out the possible events that lead the OP to here..but as she said, she has been unsuccessful, they WERE available..the only thing they didn't do was buy back those animals..and personally,....I wouldn't either.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

You beat me to the punch Brian. That was the question I was typing as well.

While there past history definitely colors anyones opinion of the Wests that is reading this, No one but the OP and the Wests can really know how much experience with animals she claimed in those first meetings.



This one really doesn't make a lot of sense. I am not seeing any bad guys here. Bad decisions...yes

 

[LauraB]

Did the OP state that the wests approached her? or did she contact them in response to an ad about a "rare business opportunity"?

Good point, Brian. I assumed they approached her ... my bad.

It happens all the time when sales savy people get others with no experience to start up a franchise... that usually benefits the seller.. promising to teach them all they need to know and to provide guidance.

A franchise! Of course! I didn't even think of that (obviously!).

I'm taking Deborah's lead and listening to my own voice now telling me to shut up.

 

[Archie Bottoms]

My thoughts that a return of real profit is not likely in just one year period.Unless you have some super morph or something very rare.One year is not enough time to breeder be.I have been keeping reptiles 35 years and breeding off and on for over 20.I have broke even some years lost other.In fact the best I ever did was with soft corals in a 10 gallon tank.That tank made me thousands of dollars by accident.You have given no idea of investment and that is where we could see if it was a scam .We need details not shadows of truth.

 

[Southern Wolf]

I admit I can be a dolt (lol, Bolt the Dolt) ... but would someone explain that to me please?

Be happy to... its a whole lot easier to have some unsuspecting individual raise and breed (do all the hard work) and get them to sell you the beardies babies at $10 a piece and then them turn aound and sell them for retail or $20 a piece to the wholesalers. They are making a nice profit without the work.

Someone that is ALREADY into herps knows about the hard work and potential profits and wouldn't fall for this scheme as easily therefore they fast talked someone that wasnt into herps.

Its easier to convience someone from the desert how great ice is vs. conviencing someone from the frozen Canadian north.

 

[LauraB]

Thanks Kevin! That would certainly explain it

I suppose it wouldn't dawn on me (Bolt the Dolt, lol) to delegate husbandry and care of herps I had an interest in to someone else. Particularly someone with no experience! Taking care of them is half the fun .. at least for me ... even though it definitly is work.

I see exactly what you mean, Kevin.

 

[ReptileAddictions]

Here is what I know about there ongoing scam for YEARS. I see more and more people come in my store about this................


Firsthand I know he has owed my mother $500+ for over 2 years. 3 years ago I bought questionable geckos from him that became problematic that he NEVER resolved.

I do know where they live also if anyone needs that info for legal collection..

"Their business card has 2 numbers one is a cell phone 208-704-1682 Tim West (father) and the other is Mike West (son) 208-625-0760 They are doing business under TMT Reptiles . They are illegally processing credit cards through a retail coin shop in post falls(comics, coins, and collectibles). Lieing to people about what reptiles they are getting, and not following through with their financial promises. This goes back as far as 2002.I have never met anyone who has the agreement in writing, but all have the same "co op" scam.

They have scammed Reeses cricket farm,Sunshine Mealworms, and recently Northwest Zoological.


They are selling "co-op" 3 bearded dragons (supposed to be 1male 2 females in a 10 gallon set up with paper towels and a clamp lamp with a 100 watt house light bulb for life. Told to feed mealies and crickets only. That when winter comes to put them in a shoebox in the closet and forget about them for 4 months.Thats it. All for $1500-$2500. Some has CC receipts for up to 20k.The promise is that they will bring you all your feeders and buy back every baby at $35-$50 each. Produce a black one and they pay you 10k from a buyer in Japan.

I met my first couple who fell for this scam about 2 years ago when I opened the store. For starters they were sold 2 males and a female. Not 2 females and a male. No paperwork on bloodlines, only told they are "colored" dragons. They very will all might be related. They looked the same pattern color to me. But one of them is MUCH larger than the other 2. One they have was on it's death bed and a second is nearing critical. The worst MBD I have ever seen. The dragons were 5" tops at 1 year.

They avoid all calls to people who dont know where they live, blame all the buyers for deaths, never replace deaths,never provide feeders, ect. ect. ect.This is the first example I have EVER heard of that someone got any eggs from one of the dragons and they bought them back.

They run the ads on Craigslist, and the local penny saver type newspapers as "co op opportunity, geckos, lizards, tortoises, snakes"

If I can be of any local assistance just let me know. We have great care sheets here and the cheapest supplies in town. I will offer the best help I can! Beardies I know

 

[ReptileAddictions]

OOPs, I forgot to ad they ALSO vend ALL the local NON reptile shows, gun shows, outdoor sportsman shows, pow wows, county fairs.

Anywhere kids and families are, they loop the parents into this "business opportunity" when the kids are standing there wanting a dragon and mom and dad cant afford it.

Time and Mike has never breed anything to my knowledge. They cant or dont have the experience to do it themselves.

 

[RJK890]

Here is what I know about there ongoing scam for YEARS. I see more and more people come in my store about this................


Firsthand I know he has owed my mother $500+ for over 2 years. 3 years ago I bought questionable geckos from him that became problematic that he NEVER resolved.

I do know where they live also if anyone needs that info for legal collection..

"Their business card has 2 numbers one is a cell phone 208-704-1682 Tim West (father) and the other is Mike West (son) 208-625-0760 They are doing business under TMT Reptiles . They are illegally processing credit cards through a retail coin shop in post falls(comics, coins, and collectibles). Lieing to people about what reptiles they are getting, and not following through with their financial promises. This goes back as far as 2002.I have never met anyone who has the agreement in writing, but all have the same "co op" scam.

They have scammed Reeses cricket farm,Sunshine Mealworms, and recently Northwest Zoological.


They are selling "co-op" 3 bearded dragons (supposed to be 1male 2 females in a 10 gallon set up with paper towels and a clamp lamp with a 100 watt house light bulb for life. Told to feed mealies and crickets only. That when winter comes to put them in a shoebox in the closet and forget about them for 4 months.Thats it. All for $1500-$2500. Some has CC receipts for up to 20k.The promise is that they will bring you all your feeders and buy back every baby at $35-$50 each. Produce a black one and they pay you 10k from a buyer in Japan.

I met my first couple who fell for this scam about 2 years ago when I opened the store. For starters they were sold 2 males and a female. Not 2 females and a male. No paperwork on bloodlines, only told they are "colored" dragons. They very will all might be related. They looked the same pattern color to me. But one of them is MUCH larger than the other 2. One they have was on it's death bed and a second is nearing critical. The worst MBD I have ever seen. The dragons were 5" tops at 1 year.

They avoid all calls to people who dont know where they live, blame all the buyers for deaths, never replace deaths,never provide feeders, ect. ect. ect.This is the first example I have EVER heard of that someone got any eggs from one of the dragons and they bought them back.

They run the ads on Craigslist, and the local penny saver type newspapers as "co op opportunity, geckos, lizards, tortoises, snakes"

If I can be of any local assistance just let me know. We have great care sheets here and the cheapest supplies in town. I will offer the best help I can! Beardies I know

That's a whole bunch of 3rd party posting, with a little bit of advertising at the end.

3 years ago I bought questionable geckos from him that became problematic that he NEVER resolved.

Okay, This is the only real firsthand info that you posted.

Why did you purchase questionable geckos?

How long after you purchased the questionable geckos from Mike West did they become problematic, and what was the problem?

How long after they became problematic did you contact him?
(Assuming that you did.)

 

[juleannh]

My reason for posting here is because I do believe this is a bad business deal. The information I was given/sold on the 'business opportunity' and the money I could make was GREATLY, COMPLETELY and TOTALLY exagerated (I was even told that if I bought enough dragons from them I could replace my current salary and quit my job to do this full time). I know now based on discussions on this site, talking with other breeders and my own experience that what I was lead to believe is not correct.

I have not included all the details, notes on a year's worth of conversation or other information specifically because I am NOT on a witch hunt here nor am I out to have all you readers play judge and jury.

I was simply trying to let folks know what my experience had been with this and the false expectations that in my opinion I was lead to believe specifically because of information I was given by the Wests.

My final comment on this "Don't make the same mistake I did!!!'

 

[chongorojo]

Juleann, its understandable that you don't want to go on a witch hunt here but you brought this here to help people that might get duped by these guys right? So to do that I belive you should provide more information so these others don't get duped as well....

 

[KingBowser]

I hate to stir up controversy, but judging from previous readings in the BOI, it's interesting and convenient that Wendy Childs/Reptile Addictions has also been involved with these guys.

Pertaining to this thread, keeping and breeding animals is not like selling merchandise on ebay. I find it strange that a person with no reptile knowledge would get involved and invest money into a business endeavor like this. This is something you have to enjoy...

 

[aleria]

But unfortunately a lot of people do see reptiles as just merchandise and not living things that they should care about. I think that is why so many get into the "business" with plans on making a fortune.
I also think the fact that people don't really see reptiles being bred en masse in the same fashion that people breed dogs in puppy mills as being a bad thing. Everyone hates puppy mills with a passion, but seeing reptiles being bred by people with little to no real working knowledge of their care and breeding in the same exact way is simply ignored or conveniently overlooked.

 

[Southern Wolf]

My reason for posting here is because I do believe this is a bad business deal. The information I was given/sold on the 'business opportunity' and the money I could make was GREATLY, COMPLETELY and TOTALLY exagerated (I was even told that if I bought enough dragons from them I could replace my current salary and quit my job to do this full time).

Actually you could..... but it takes a whole lot of work and know how.

I personally know a beardie breeder that makes a living from his animals. I have been to his place and seen the work he puts in first hand. It is doable. But you first have to know what your doing and have a customer base to do it. This takes time to achieve.... and can not be done in a years time.

 

[AbsoluteApril]

The information I was given/sold on the 'business opportunity' and the money I could make was GREATLY, COMPLETELY and TOTALLY exagerated (I was even told that if I bought enough dragons from them I could replace my current salary and quit my job to do this full time).

I understand you don't want to give out specifics but a ballpark would help to really understand just how exagerated the expectations were. You don't have to respond of course, but it would be nice to know if they were saying something like '200 pairs of beardies and 200 corns and you might make 10-20K return' as opposed to something like '10 or 20 pairs and you can make 100,000 or more a year'.

 

[deborahbroadus]

I understand you don't want to give out specifics but a ballpark would help to really understand just how exagerated the expectations were. You don't have to respond of course, but it would be nice to know if they were saying something like '200 pairs of beardies and 200 corns and you might make 10-20K return' as opposed to something like '10 or 20 pairs and you can make 100,000 or more a year'.

Would that really matter? Would it absolve her of the responsiblity of researching, learning and understanding if the promises were possible before making the decision that got her into this mess?

It's not like the brothers told her "I have a 'BRIDGE' I want to sell you" and took her money and ran. She got what she paid for, but apparently was unable to pull the whole thing together.

They may have talked it up and sold her a picture of a pie in the sky...and even given her a slice to make the "hook" sink. It still falls on her, she got what she paid for, they were available to her for assistance and questions, and I really wouldn't buy back any animals from someone that admitted to the fact that they were dying and unable to produce viable clutches, (I still want to see pics).

Therefore, imo, unless she can produce pictures of the animals that she was sold and a timeline of them being in her care (before and after pics) and it can be clearly seen that the animals were probably defective and had no chance of surviving, breeding or whatever the purpose was, she has no case.

She paid money for animals and a business franchise (whether it was too much or not, wasn't for us to determine..difference prices etc...she paid it, she must have thought it was worth it. It's really sad/upsetting that the deal didn't work in her favor and 1 year really isn't enough time to get established (I've been doing it going on 6 years now and am just now getting known!).

Were the brothers buying the animals she produced as agreed or not, and can she prove it (they don't have to buy the final batch if she gets out of the franchise, and I don't recall that buying the animals if she decides that she's had enough as being part of their verbal agreement?). These are the questions that would concern me, and let me arrive at a BAD SELLER/BUSINESS person judgement.

 

[AbsoluteApril]

Would that really matter? Would it absolve her of the responsiblity of researching, learning and understanding if the promises were possible before making the decision that got her into this mess?

I agree with you 100% and no, I don't think it matters in regards to what she did or the decision she made to take this on. I don't think we have nearly enough information to try to pass any kind of judgement for this deal and I agree the thread would probably have been better served if it was an 'info' instead of 'bad guy' thread. I thought she admitted personal responsibility for making this bad business decision with no research into the specialized care required for breeding living creatures? It seemed to me her beef was with their extravagant promise of fast money, so I am wondering if the expectations that she was given were even remotely reasonable (regardless if she herself would be able to properly house, care and breed the species). I hope that makes sense..?

 

[spyder79]

Would that really matter? Would it absolve her of the responsiblity of researching, learning and understanding if the promises were possible before making the decision that got her into this mess?

It's not like the brothers told her "I have a 'BRIDGE' I want to sell you" and took her money and ran. She got what she paid for, but apparently was unable to pull the whole thing together.

They may have talked it up and sold her a picture of a pie in the sky...and even given her a slice to make the "hook" sink. It still falls on her, she got what she paid for, they were available to her for assistance and questions, and I really wouldn't buy back any animals from someone that admitted to the fact that they were dying and unable to produce viable clutches, (I still want to see pics).

Therefore, imo, unless she can produce pictures of the animals that she was sold and a timeline of them being in her care (before and after pics) and it can be clearly seen that the animals were probably defective and had no chance of surviving, breeding or whatever the purpose was, she has no case.

She paid money for animals and a business franchise (whether it was too much or not, wasn't for us to determine..difference prices etc...she paid it, she must have thought it was worth it. It's really sad/upsetting that the deal didn't work in her favor and 1 year really isn't enough time to get established (I've been doing it going on 6 years now and am just now getting known!).

Were the brothers buying the animals she produced as agreed or not, and can she prove it (they don't have to buy the final batch if she gets out of the franchise, and I don't recall that buying the animals if she decides that she's had enough as being part of their verbal agreement?). These are the questions that would concern me, and let me arrive at a BAD SELLER/BUSINESS person judgement.

Yeah she said earlier in this post(post number 1 actually) that the few clutches she did get to hatch they purchased from her.