Bad experience with Brandon Lockett

[Roesnake]

In December I purchased a python from Brandon Lockett advertised as a Borneo Short Tail from the Tim Mead line…a recent exam by Kara Glasgow and Dave Barker has determined that the snake is definitely not 100% Borneo, but more likely a Blood/Borneo cross.
I have sent several e-mails and left a phone message with someone in his household for Brandon in an attempt to arrange to return the snake and be reimbursed my expenses, but have received no response during the last five days. Obviously he's willing to ignore me until I drop this thing.
At this point, I am out approximately $250 due to a trade transaction that identified the snake accurately.
I have two concerns...Brandon's unwillingness to process this with me and make things right, AND I also wonder whether he has sold these animals to other unsuspecting folks. I don't think this is business as usual for Brandon, and I know he has his fans, but he is handling this very badly.

 

[gmherps]

Where is Brandon from? I'm just curious.

 

[Roesnake]

Brandon's posts say Arlington, TX...he had a couple of Boas posted yesterday. I believe the area code for his phone number is a Ft Worth exchange.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

ROSESNAKE, did you pay for the snake

or did you trade for the snake? Secondly, you realize that we are in May, and you aquired the snake in Dec of 03! Am I to understand that it took you 6 months to determine that what you received is what you should not have!

 

[Roesnake]

excellent point!...I am not an expert on Python curtus, and had no concerns at all about the snake initially.

Two weeks ago I traded it to Kara Glasgow for one of her Red Bloods...as soon as she received it, she contacted me and told me that she had concerns about the snake. She sent detailed head photos to Dave Barker, who is an expert on Blood Pythons. He responded that it is not 100% Borneo.

The snake was sold to me as 100% Borneo Short Tail, and this is not true. Perhaps there is a statute of limitations on this, but the bigger issue is the integrity of the vendor.

The reason I am posting this is so that others may benefit from my experience, regardless of how long ago the transaction took place.

 

[Roesnake]

Also, my apologies...I believe I am supposed to have my full name attached to these posts, and I have not done so...I'm not even sure how to do this. BUT- my name is Jim Lineberger, and I live in North Carolina.
All the best-

 

[The BoidSmith]

It is possible that Brandon himself did not know it was a 100% red blood. As for the "statute of limitations" as you mentioned, IMO this should be handled similarly to heteros for snake morphs. If they are not what they were represented as, (genetically speaking) one should be able to return them for a refund.

Yes, it is probably up to the buyer to verify within a certain period of time if the animal was adequately represented. But in this case it took the opinion of an expert to finally determine the issue and it was only discovered because the animal was traded in.

Good luck!

 

[KNOBTAIL]

I can appreciate your frustration, but

its your obligation once you receive the animal to know what you have or in this case what you dont have. Its also possible that the seller may not have realized that the snake in question was not what he thought he had! In either situation, I still would like to know if this was purchased or traded! Also,

Do you or can you provide any additional proof that in the form of emails or receipts that you were duped! That would certainly add some merit to your argument before calling him a bad guy after having the snake for 6 months and then finding out its not what you thought it was !

 

[Roesnake]

Jerry-
I appreciate your scrutiny. It could be too easy to trash someone unjustifiably through this kind of venue.

In my original post I stated that snake was purchased...I paid $175 shipped for her. Honestly, I don't know whether Brandon knew or not that the animal was misrepresented...but I don't think this matters. I have a high standard for myself, and expect the same from others. If I sold a snake two years ago and found out I had incorrectly sexed the animal, I would take it back and reimburse the buyer. I guess this seems extreme, but I know how I would want to be treated given the same situation.

At the point that it becomes necessary for me to share e-mails, I will gladly do so. I have kept a record of all the relevant interactions. At this point, I don't expect to get my money back...If you have a particular concern about the veracity of this, I'll share a couple of the e-mails from this past week. Just let me know. I also have the paypal record of the original purchase.

Enjoy the day-
Jim

 

[KNOBTAIL]

well JIM, providing email communications

should have been available without me asking for some additional proof. You cannot expect anyone to take ones word based on evidence-less information.

If you want to make a case provide the necessary information that you ordered a specific snake and did not receive it. I am not trying to pick on you, but when you post a warning about a person, it will become a permanent record at the BOI for others to see. In order to protect other potential buyers from having the same difficulties as you did, the more informationthat you provide , can only benefit you.

Personally, I think your out of luck not because of a statue of limitations, but unless their was some prior agreement, his argument could very easily be that you received exactly what you ordered! Its also possible that because of the length of time he could say that he did in fact send you what you ordered and you are the one trying to get your money back on a flimsy excuse. In either case, I am sure you realize that their are issues here that need addressing. ..........PS iam not your enemy! and I dont trash people !

 

[The BoidSmith]

If I sold a snake two years ago and found out I had incorrectly sexed the animal, I would take it back and reimburse the buyer. I guess this seems extreme, but I know how I would want to be treated given the same situation.

Jim,

You will have to agree though that there are sellers that give you a certain time frame to make sure you have sexed the snake properly. I disagree with this approach.

If dealer sells an animal sexed it has to be the proper sex. If you are not able to properly sex snakes (or stand by your sale if sexed wrongly) then the seller should sell them "unsexed" (at an accordingly discounted price). It is not up to the buyer to find out if you made a "mistake" or not. In my opinion Jerry makes a good point in the need for e-mails to back up your claims.

Hope everything goes well and the issue gets resolved.

 

[Roesnake]

I hope this is helpful...

I traded the snake to Kara...she immediately picked-up on the "identity crisis"...(By the way, Kara (of NERD) is a class act and has handled all of this without complaint.) A couple of her communications:

"Hi Jim,

She's here - feisty & full of herself. I'm a little curious as to who sold you this animal as a Borneo - upon closer inspection she appears to be an odd blood, or at the least, a blood X Borneo cross. I've taken several head shots for scalation study & sent them to David Barker to get his opinion of the animal, but it appears she's going through a bit of an identity crisis at the moment.

If you could provide me with some info on who produced the animal, I'd be happy to do some digging myself.

Thanks!

Kara"

ANOTHER E-MAIL, A SHORT TIME LATER:

"Jim,

Here is the reply I received from Dave Barker, as well as the photos I sent him that were taken this morning just after the snake arrived. I 'm copying Brandon on this e-mail as well.

Thanks!

Kara

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: RE: Second Opinion?
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:24:22 -0500
From: vpi <[email protected]>
To: 'Kara Glasgow' <[email protected]>


Hi Kara

It looks fishy to me--I'd lean toward the Borneo x blood cross, if I had to guess. This is why I hate it when scurrilous people hybridize pythons and then don't take responsibility for their ultimate dispensation.

This snake has 2 supraoculars on one side (blood) and one supraocular on the other (breit/curtus) and it has no suboculars on the left side (blood) and an unusual combination of scales on the right side that suggests the presence of suboculars and is occasionally seen in breit/curtus but I have never seen it in a blood.

I think the pattern could go either way, blood or breit.

If it has to be one or the other, I'd say it is a blood. But it sure is
a candidate to be a hybrid.

Dave"

and Finally, my data from PAYPAL:

"Name: Brandon Lockett (The recipient of this payment is Verified)
Email: [email protected]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Amount:
-$175.00 USD
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Dec. 12, 2003 Time: 06:44:27 PST
Status: Completed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: 2002 female Borneo
Note: price covers cost of animal and all shipping charges

Shipping Address:
James Lineberger...

Final Note:
ODDLY ENOUGH, I think I'm accurate in saying that Brandon's ad for the snake said that he produced it, so he should've known it wasn't pure bred!

 

[DavidBeard]

Jim, I believe they are wanting to see e-mail communication between yourself and Brandon. That would clear things up.

 

[Double "D" Reptiles]

interesting

Jim,
This does indeed make for an interesting problem. The animal's coloration tends to appear more like a light-phase brongersmai (prob. bad spelling) female that we had a few years ago with the light colored head of the male we had with her.

Add to that the "Ankh" patten on the head and the problem compounds. It's quite familiar to me as belonging to a genetic line of brietensteini of which I'm familiar. I've ben told that this particular line showed that "ankh" for the first time (Bill Hart, formerly of the Denver area) and later showed it as a genetic trait. But those, as far as I know, didn't show any of the colorations generally associated with brongersmai like the one in your pic.

How old is the blood in question? I suspect that if it's less than 2, then you'll see a deepening of the red coloration rather than the opposite. Sorry for the drab news. Beauty of a critter and if I was currently in a position to take it off your hands, I certainly would.

David

 

[Roesnake]

Below is the most recent e-mail I sent to Brandon. I have sent or copied him on three or four e-mails, but haven't received a single reply... and no, I don't have e-mails from last December's interactions with Brandon...live and learn.

BEGINNING OF E-MAIL
"Hi, Brandon-
Sorry to hound you, but Kara is sitting on this animal right now, and needs to move it on.
This is a message I sent earlier to the "Contact Me!" e-mail address from your longicauda post:

"Hey, Brandon--
Nice longicauda...but I'm actually e-mailing you about a different issue. If you still have your [email protected] e-mail address, then you have some messages waiting for you. I'm sure it was just a mistake, but you sold me a "Borneo" shorttail last December that has since been identified by Kara Glasgow and Dave Barker as not being a 100% Borneo. I want to undo the deal...I paid $175 (shipped) for the animal and it is now with Kara, so once we get this done I will have her mail it to you...you will need to pay her the cost of shipping to you. If you don't have access to the e-mails I have sent you on your aol account, please let me know and I'll send you the details.
Thanks-
Jim Lineberger"

Please follow-up with me as soon as you can, Brandon. My cell phone is ######...if I don't answer, leave me a message and I'll follow-up with a phone call.
I appreciate it-
Jim"
END OF E-MAIL...

I'll also share a head shot of the snake for anyone interested---Kara took this-

 

[HerpVenue]

I would love to see those pics.
Not that I doubt Kara or Dave.

But I love studying the bloods / borneos.
Had several at one time or another.
Even considered myself a fan and a somehwat "knowledgeable caregiver"

I have never seen hybrids.......though
this would certainly be an educational opportunity for me.

Then again it has been a while since I owned one.....so a refresher course would definately be appreciated.

 

[NewEnglandReptile]

Ritchie,

Here are the photos I initially sent to Dave Barker for further identification. I'm reposting his reply to me (which Jim so kindly posted) so you don't have to flip back between pics & description.

"Hi Kara

It looks fishy to me--I'd lean toward the Borneo x blood cross, if I had
to guess. This is why I hate it when scurrilous people hybridize pythons
and then don't take responsibility for their ultimate dispensation.

This snake has 2 supraoculars on one side (blood) and one supraocular on the other (breit/curtus) and it has no suboculars on the left side (blood) and an unusual combination of scales on the right side that suggests the presence of suboculars and is occasionally seen in breit/curtus but I have never seen it in a blood.

I think the pattern could go either way, blood or breit.

If it has to be one or the other, I'd say it is a blood. But it sure is
a candidate to be a hybrid.

Dave"

Kara Glasgow - NERD, Inc.

 

[Pennebaker]

I really have no input as to whether this guy is 100% or what.
However, in the seller's defense, 5 months is really too long to not have resolved this. Was there a guarantee?

Also, not everyone is an expert on each species that they sell, and it appears that even the experts are unsure as to the status of this snake.
Many animals in this trade go through a number of hands and if you are not an expert, you have to go on what the person who sold the animal to you says. If there is a question about it, go to the breeder (or books, or experts) to verify--and I would say this needs to be done asap in order for a refund/return to be possible (Kara at NERD did this right away). Unfortunately, I think that Kara deserves the refund, but Roesnake is out of luck due to not having checked this out after receiving the snake.

It stinks, but I have had the same thing happen several times myself. I blame it on myself for not double checking. I do not blame the seller because I believe they did not know either. Honest mistakes do happen in this business. If they are not caught within a guarantee period, I think the buyer needs to take responsibility.

That being said, maybe some compensation could be worked out (discount or something). If I was the seller I would be willing to do so, but I do not think he is obligated.

My 2 cents,
Dana

 

[Pennebaker]

I was just thinking about this situation again--it's a tricky one I have to say.

This is why I hate it when scurrilous people hybridize pythons
and then don't take responsibility for their ultimate dispensation.

However, I could not agree more with the above quote. I would go to the original breeder--see if he cannot help.

Dana

 

[Sasheena]

My nickel's worth of thoughts...

Blotched/Goini/Apalachicola kingsnakes are one of the most difficult kingsnakes out there. Some people cross certain snakes to get the "look and feel" of the Apalachicola king, some of the snakes sold as Apalachicola are really natural integrades between the Apalachicola and Easterns. IT's a difficult call. I have a snake whom the "experts" say is, or at least "looks like" a pure Apalachicola snake. Her mate (who sadly just died), does NOT have the look of the pure, but rather the look of the integrade. I sold her offspring last year using all the above names (blotched, Apalachicola, Goini) as I truly did not understand the distinction. Mostly I sold them to people who didn't care (not breeders). The one person I sold a baby to that would have cared got an email from me once I really truly understood the distinction. I did not want them to think that they had a pure Apalachicola Kingsnake when in fact it would be more like a 75% Apalachicola, 25% Eastern integrade. It turned out that the long-winded discussion over on Kingsnake.com was something he'd actually read. For him it wasn't news when I told him the updated information about the snake he'd purchased six months previously. He was glad of my email, and still quite happy with the snake. Had he wanted to return the snake for a refund, even though it would have been a hardship for me, I would have done that too. Luckily he is happy.

If I ever unknowingly sold a snake as a specific kind of snake, and discovered that I'd misrepresented it, I would accept the healthy snake back for a full refund, or make some other sort of equitable arrangement with the person who received the mis-identified snake.

If someone emailed me regarding this and I didn't feel it was important to have customer satisfaction...if In fact I felt that the time-limit was up, so to speak, I would STILL email them in response, speak to them kindly, explain my stance, and even so I would try to work out some sort of arrangement. Whether it was a future deal with free shipping, or something else along those lines.

I certainly would not consider it to be within the realm of good behaviour to ignore said emails with a shrug and a "time limit's up" said to myself.

Now, people do go on vacation and such. I would expect anyone emailing me to wait at least 2 weeks before considering they'd been ignored. Especially if it was around the holidays, or as it gets towards that "graduation season" for that reason as well. But it is important to always have good communication, even if all you have to say is "sorry, I can't help you, it's been too long."

{Jeeze, I must be long-winded today!}