Ball idiots......(sorry, another ball rant)

[NEWReptiles]

Below is a quote from another sorry ass ad I seen today.

We have one 100% het for albino female left she is perfect in every way , She weighs 200 grams and is about 9 months old , We need to move her out for more space , Eating great on frozen thawed medium sized rats.

OK, my gripe, a 9 month old ball that is 200 grams is not eating great PERIOD.

2nd, are we supposed to buy that this animal ( so called het) eats medium rats when it only weighs 200 grams?
I may be a little off, but I thought medium rats were 100-200 grams?

I'm sick and tired of seeing ads for balls that are 9-12 months old, weigh 170-250 grams with the phrase "eating great".

 

[Clay Davenport]

I agree with you on that ad. No way it can be feeding great and weight that little unless they are just refusing to feed it, and why would yo udo that with a het albino female?

I thought I'd ask your opinion on the other side of the coin though. I see ads by one seller advertising females that are in my opinion abnormally large for their age. A 10 month old or so that is over 1300 grams.
I tend to think that rate of growth can't be healthy, but then again I haven't raised a large number of balls either.
What range would you consider normal for a healthy year old female?

I see the Sutherlands for instance with 10 month old females on their site now that weigh 400+ grams. I realize that these were probably maintenance fed, but that's still a LONG way from 1300 grams. How much would you have to feed a ball to achieve that level of weight gain? What kind of breeders would such a snake be after being grown that quickly?

 

[btaylor]

I bred balls and I would totally agree with you. 200 grams at a year old is a rotten eater. On the other hand - a year old at 1300 grams is big. Unhealthy - I couldn't tell you. I have about 10 sub-adults that are a year old and weigh on average 1000 grams. I feed every 5 days. If they are hungry they will eat if not they won't. Babies get feed every 3 days. I try to get them all on rats ASAP but some just take mice. The mice eaters are slower at gaining weight. Just my .02
BT

 

[NEWReptiles]

I myself like to put 90-100 grams per month on my females.
I too have seen a Florida breeders ads with weights of 1300 grams for some pastel females that are less than a year old, I honestly see this as fine. We all know how balls can go off feed at any given time, or fast for 6 months over the winter.

What range would you consider normal for a healthy year old female?

I feel that a gain of 50-100 grams per month is ideal for balls.

I see the Sutherlands for instance with 10 month old females on their site now that weigh 400+ grams.

When a certian animal is not going to be used in a breeding program, it tends to be offered less food. I do not do this, I feed all of my animals on a weekly basis, whether they are gonna be kept/bred or not. 400 grams is not at all unhealthy, but I myself would try to get it a little beefier.

How much would you have to feed a ball to achieve that level of weight gain?

I'm not positive on how to achieve 400 grams at 10 months of age, but my 03's (ALL from 650-950 grams and 10 months old too) are fed on a 7-10 day schedule. I feed every ball I keep prey items about 10% of thier own body weight.

What kind of breeders would such a snake be after being grown that quickly?

I'm not sure how this affects females, there have been rumors of smaller clutches from girls that were fed heavier and bred younger, but I don't know of any truth to that.
I have 3 clutches this year from 02 girls, all laid good eggs and are eating and regaining thier weight back just fine.

If they are hungry they will eat if not they won't.

I agree 100%, and I have plenty of girls that skip meals, but I still offer weekly.

I try to get them all on rats ASAP but some just take mice. The mice eaters are slower at gaining weight.

Same here, I hold out on offering mouse hoppers until the babies have been out of the egg for about a month, last year all took rat pups within a week of thier first shed, with the exception of 1.

 

[Clay Davenport]

I feed my hatchling balls every 5 days normally, the ones I'm keeping and the ones I plan to sell.
Mine I'm sure are a little smaller because I still feed mice. Been procrastinating on getting the rat rack built, got to get to that next week.

My largest 03 snakes are a couple of males that are around 600-700 grams as of the last weighing 3 weeks ago. The smallest are about 450, but they've been on/off feeders.

I myself wouldn't want to push a female to 1300 grams in 10 months, but different breeders have different techniques. You just never see any talk about the weights of the keepers. As you said what you see for sale often isn't fed at the same rate as what they are keeping.
Still, I can't help but think that rate of growth can't be good for the long term health of the snake. If that's not power feeding, how big would one have to get in a year for it to be? That's just me though. I would tend to pass over a female grown that way myself, never mind the arm and a leg prige tag.

I like your target weights on prey and weight gain, I 've never actually developed a system like that myself. I'll use those numbers in my own collection.

I'm not sure how this affects females, there have been rumors of smaller clutches from girls that were fed heavier and bred younger, but I don't know of any truth to that.

Smaller clutches can be expected from young females. I was more concerned about the possibility of complications associated with the accelerated growth rate. Egg binding, low fertility etc. It really would depend on if females grown like that could be considered obese, or if the extra weight is actually lean mass. Obesity can hinder reproductive effort, but big does not necessarily mean obese.

For me, I'll continue growing my females at what I consider a more average weight, even if it does cost me a year. It's a different perspective I suppose. He says time is not on my side, but I see it as a snake with a potential 30 year plus life span. That's a lot of time. Opposite priorities I guess depending on if you're looking at the snake or your wallet.

 

[NEWReptiles]

I'll continue growing my females at what I consider a more average weight, even if it does cost me a year.

Same here Clay, it just seems to be in the animals best interest.
Besides, what is a year when they will most likely produce for most of thier life?

 

[cka]

Nice information, guys, and I can attest to a slower grow rate with mice...our one female will be two and she weighs 599 gms...has NEVER missed a meal and eats 2 jumbo (30 gm plus) mice / 7-10 days...Guess I'll jump her up to a 60 gm rat (which she has eaten) full time and see how she does...keep up the good work, Al...

 

[DavidBeard]

Maybe I'm a bit off, but isn't every 3-5 days a bit much for feeding boids? Colubrids, sure....but ball pythons? I thought every 7 days was a good regimen for young boids.

 

[btaylor]

Yep - your a bit off. 3 to 5 days for a young bp is fine. What do people consider powerfeeding? You offer food - IF your snake is hungry it will eat - IF NOT it won't.
BT

 

[DavidBeard]

I have to disagree with you Brian.....boids have a much slower metabolism than colubrids and over feeding them can greatly tax their digestive system.....not allowing for proper digestion periods is not healthy for the snake.

Also, snakes are opportunistic feeders and their natural programming is to eat whenever they can because they do not know when the next meal is coming....so a snake that is seemingly "hungry" is just exhibiting a survival tactic. I have a couple of snakes that would very likely eat every day if I offered them food that often.....but would that make it wise?

 

[DavidBeard]

By the way.....I hope you aren't power feeding the Ball Python I sold you last month, Brian.

 

[btaylor]

I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you David. I've been keeping and breeding snakes for as many years as you are old! How many snakes you own? How many do you breed? What you need to do is get real info from the big boys (Ralph Davis, BHB, Nigel and Gail, Dave and Tracy Barker, ect. ect.) Go to a real expo like Daytona, Philly, ect. and talk with the real deal breeders. The Shelbyville show doesn't offer to much. Hate to tell you but by your records the bp I got from you had to be an '03 and only weighed 309 grams - thats pretty light - not from being a picky eater but from you feeding her every 10 days. Shes gained over 125 grams since I've had her - feeding her rats every 5 days. Let me guess the next thing you'll slam me for is for feeding live - right.
Get your nose out of the books and go to a real show, talk to some real breeders, learn a few things then talk <font color=red>[**censored**]</font>. Almost forgot - what do you have cooking in your incubator?
BT

 

[DavidBeard]

Whooooooaaaa, Brian. Whats the problem, man? I'm just making civil conversation. No reason to get all jumpy about it man, lol. If you think I'm being disrespectful, meet me at the show on Saturday and we can talk face to face like men. IMO you need to get off your high horse and calm down. And you're wrong about the ball I sold you.....she was a picky feeder before I got her onto f/t....so she did not eat on an ideal schedule, but once she was on f/t rats I fed her every 7 days. She was a CH baby I bought from Dwight Good, so theres no denying you got a quality snake....correct? Take a chill pill dude, its only a forum!

 

[btaylor]

I'm not on a high horse. People with all this powerfeeding and "you gotta feed f/t" BS piss me off. Yes she is a nice animal but not a picky eater for me - live - mice or rats. Chill pill - I'll take one. But have you ever wondered why the big breeders stop posting on forums? Its because people who think they know it all slam them for the stupid little <font color=red>[**censored**]</font> like "feeding live" and "powerfeeding". People who own a snow corn and a pair of cali. kings telling them how to raise and breed snakes - what a joke. I'll be at the show - to buy my feeder mice. Are you threating me with your "face to face like men"? I sure hope so - see you bright and early Saturday.
BT

 

[DavidBeard]

I honestly do not understand the hostility in your posts, Brian.....when I met you, you seemed like a very nice reasonable guy. Why are you so mad at me?? All I did was give my opinion......can you not handle differing opinions?

I can assure you I do not own just a "snow corn & a pair of cali kings" LOL. In fact, I own none of those animals. I wasn't "slamming" anyone.....please show me where I did so.

And no, I was not threatening you, so stop being so defensive. I was merely extending an offer to discuss this matter in person rather than flame each other over the internet, which is a silly thing to do IMO. I hope to see you at the show, bright and early.

 

[btaylor]

David-
I'm not mad at you. I was referring to "people" in general. Opinions are like aholes - everybody has one. Sure we can discuss what ever you would like. I am pretty much laid back - sorry you took it the wrong way and sorry for coming off the way I did. Not much into flaming either - I just get pissy at certain topics. Anyway see you Saturday-
BT

 

[DavidBeard]

No problem, man...apology accepted. No harm, no foul lol. See you on Saturday!

 

[NEWReptiles]

People with all this powerfeeding and "you gotta feed f/t" BS piss me off.

Me too Brian, The funny thing is, the only people that argue are those with 2 ball pythons. I'm in a feeding debate with a few idiots on KS right now. They have been keeping these animals for a whopping 6 months.

Ya gotta love it........

 

[DavidBeard]

I prefer to feed f/t.....but if I need to, I will feed live. Its not that big of a deal to me really. All of my snakes except one eat f/t....its just alot easier for me in a few ways.

I do not feel that power feeding is a good idea, however. But the definition of power feeding differs from person to person....IMO every 3-5 days is too often for boids. I feed my colubrids every 3-5 days and my young boids every 7 days. Its just a matter of personal preference.

 

[btaylor]

Al-
I've read a lot of your post and agree with you on a lot of topics. These "people" we both refer to have pretty much killed the big breeders from posting on KS - they are tired of getting slammed and I don't blame them. I still say what is powerfeeding? If my balls are not hungry they WON'T eat. If they are the eat - on average - in about 2 minutes. I feed live - 2 reasons. 1. Time - to many snakes. 2. What am I going to do with 75 defrosted rats that didn't get eaten? To each his own. But Al you hit the nail on the head - people with 2 snakes that they have had for 3 months telling long timers how to do things - to funny. Then they turn around the next day with the classic post of "Help - my bp won't eat"
BT