BAN THEM?

[polasian]

I was going to start this thread a while back, however the issue (which came up very often) I'll be addressing seemed to have died down. Until...

Isn't this conduct against the rules here? maybe Rich can ban this person already??? and it seems this was an attempt to scam someone with false allegations.

The problem with posting these "ban them" questions/opinions, is that they WILL be ignored IF they are posted in an unrelated thread...which is EVERY SINGLE THREAD on the BOI. This makes them disruptive rants (even if the meat of these posts is a concern shared by all). Such posts also put Mods and other members in an awkward position...
(the following posts are NOT responses to the post quoted above...they are however, responses to posts of similar nature)...

This is a thread about Howling Gale Bearded Dragons...the side discussions need to be taken to an appropriate discussion forum (scammer activity, prevention of same, etc are probably best placed in the Fauna Feedback Forum).

I knew that responding to those posts here would probably result in this situation, but I didn't want it to seem like I was ignoring the issue.

Then where's the line get drawn? Do we vote on who we want banned from the site? Do the mods just go with who they believe is guilty? Do we ban the people that we're pretty sure are scammers? Do we ban the ones that take money and not send animals? Or send dead animals? Or just have really bad customer service? What about banning someone you're "sure" is a scammer, only to have the BOI discover the buyer or OP is actually the scammer, or a disgruntled employee. Then what. Our sincerest apologies to the banned party and an invite back?

I realize the frustration, believe me, but you have to look at it from the site's point of view. They're here to give US the tools to decide who to buy from and sell to. Not to play judge and jury. Not only does it possibly put them in legal liability making those decisions, but it also becomes a matter of how much is enough, and when does it go too far?

The site sets rules, to try to keep this place somewhat fair and ordered. It doesn't decide who's a good or bad seller, that's on all of us, the reptile community. We have the BOI here to help us make informed decisions, not make them for us. Ultimately, we cannot expect this site to save us from ourselves. The tools are right here (along with a little common sense) to make informed decisions.

Harald had to address the issue to make sure that the membership know that their concerns are not being ignored. Richard addressed the issue to answer the question in hopes that, that particular thread can get back on track. The point is, such questions should NOT be asked on the BOI in the first place.

Talking about what rules or policies should/shouldn't be implemented, while at the same time breaking others (off topic/disruptive posting...which often times can derail a thread), is fruitless and hypocritical. There are occasionally some good ideas being voiced within posts that SHOULD be seen, BUT as that thread (where said ideas were posted) falls deeper into the archives of the BOI, so will those ideas. Eventually the same question/suggestion, by a different member, will be posted on another thread, a few weeks or months down the line. Its a endless/disruptive/redundant cycle with no progress.

There are good intentioned members who are probably getting infractions for posting about this in the BOI. Although they are saying the right things (or at least the issues they bring up are valid), they are saying them in the wrong place. Its plain and simple, post your concerns in the appropriate area, and they WILL be addressed. As is, no solutions will every be reached with such sporadic posting on the BOI (honestly, I don't think there even is a solution, however if you're going to talk about it, keep it out of the BOI).

Not only might something actually come of this, it will also allow the BOI threads to stay on topic. Staying on topic in the BOI is ESPECIALLY important because the less time wasted on irrelevant (to the topic at hand) issues, the more time can be spent on helping the OP come to a resolution.

The following post (from the horse's mouth) explains why this site can not outright ban someone if they are NOT breaking the rules...

Sorry gang, but that just is not our job. Our effort here is to try to provide you with the tools necessary for you to all do your own homework and make your own decisions about who to do business with. And who you should likely not. We cannot hold your hand in that process, and provide guarantees for your safety, as we would be operating nearly completely on hearsay. We would be making serious decisions based on other people's claims (who in reality we don't know from Adam), which can be either true or false, and therefore acting as both jury and judge on everyone posting within the classifieds based solely on those allegations.

This would set an uncomfortable precedent in that if we were to ban people because of the above mentioned hearsay, then we could quite likely be exposing ourselves to legal liability because of the assumption then made that anyone who IS posting classifieds here most therefore be deemed BY US to be safe for YOU to do business with. We could therefore then possibly be legally liable for YOUR losses and damages because of this presumed safety implied by such actions on our part.

Sorry, but there just is no way that we are going to go out on that limb.

If you find someone who you desire doing business with, then I strongly suggest that YOU make ALL possible efforts to protect yourself in your business transactions. It just is not wise nor prudent to rely on (much less, ASK) someone else to do this footwork for you.

Please, ask your questions about this issue here (in the feedback forum)...or if you see someone post the "why aren't they banned" question, then send them a link to this thread. Or perhaps a mod can start a more appropriate thread (minus my rants ) which can be linked after each "ban them" post. Nothing will ever be resolved if things keep going the way they're going. If you're truly concerned about this issue, then here's your chance to discuss it.

(Note...the above is in NO WAY geared towards the members who tackle these issues on BOI threads...my gripe lies strictly with the individuals who INITIATE and then drag on those "ban" questions/suggestions)

 

[tinmantribe5]

Gettin Carried away!

I learned my lesson!
Thank you Harald for showing me the way! He He
I think we all get a lil carried away sometimes on these lil soap opra's
we all subscribe and spend so much of our time Hanging on the Next Guy or Gals next Knock down it seems sometimes.I will say When a Mod gets on your Butt! in a PM Take your Medicine and MOVE ON!
The BOI is not for POT SHots and we as in Me too all have to act or Try and act as Adults so thanks MODs and Nicholas for Reminding us every once in a While!

 

[StrictlyExotics]

I learned my lesson!
Thank you Harald for showing me the way! He He
I think we all get a lil carried away sometimes on these lil soap opra's
we all subscribe and spend so much of our time Hanging on the Next Guy or Gals next Knock down it seems sometimes.I will say When a Mod gets on your Butt! in a PM Take your Medicine and MOVE ON!
The BOI is not for POT SHots and we as in Me too all have to act or Try and act as Adults so thanks MODs and Nicholas for Reminding us every once in a While!

The worst part, and what I fear the most is, that because of how heated it gets with Ed diverting issues and Nicole's never guilty attitude is that we (the ones who contribute to the site by posting) will slowly get infractions for what we say in their threads. To me, its no longer worth taking that risk for all of us. Personally, I am glad that most have slowly stopped posting on their threads albeit by infractions, suspensions, etc... Nothing good will come out of continuing to post on their threads unless it pertains to the specific case at hand.

 

[ozz465]

I actually forgot about that quote from rich . thx.

 

[polasian]

The BOI is not for POT SHots and we as in Me too all have to act or Try and act as Adults

Nothing good will come out of continuing to post on their threads unless it pertains to the specific case at hand.

I actually forgot about that quote from rich . thx.

That's understandable. Rich's above statement is currently located on page 19 of the BOI, in post #321, of a 595 post thread . A new user, or even a senior member (who hasn't read every thread in the BOI) will not notice Rich's post (although, Rich has made several such posts) and eventually bring up the same concerns that you did. In doing so, he/she could potentially derail a BOI thread.

That's exactly why such discussions should be redirected out of the BOI and into the feedback forum. So that this site's policies will not have to be continually reiterated...JUST to be overlooked anyway . Nothing will every get resolved that way.

What's really unfortunate, is when a "why not ban him?-post" escalates into a 10-15 post back & forth. During all that off topic talk, the OP is sitting there and saying to him/herself "guys...I have a dead snake and am out $1,500...PLEASE...FOCUS...HELP ME!"

 

[ReptileJay]

While I agree that banning a member simply based on alleged bad transactions is not a reasonable approach to dealing with problems, simply ignoring the problem does not resolve anything either.

When it comes to "Bad Guys" (like Ed Clark for example), I have noticed a number of common trends that pose serious problems when it comes to resolving issues.

1.)The CONSTANT diversions that "Bad Guys" seem so fond of.
2.)The inability and/or complete unwillingness to tell the truth.
3.)When all else fails, just stop posting, ignore all questions and comments, and simply let the thread fall to the bottom of the BOI, going unseen by those who do not specifically search for it.
4.)Then of course we can't forget to lock ALL our classified ads so that no one can inform potential buyers about previous unresolved problems.

There are ways of dealing with some of these problems that would not have any legal implications against the site itself.
1.)After a certain number of unique negative BOI threads against a person, give them a sticky... After all, at that point they have earned it. This way, they can no longer divert or avoid the questions asked of them, allowing the thread to fall.
2.)Restrict the ability to lock classified ads. A "good guy" SHOULD have nothing to hide. It SEEMS like locking an ad is simply a defense mechanism used to prevent linking to the BOI. By removing this feature, there is more reason for a speedy resolution of BOI claims, and thus a reduction in the time consuming diversionary tactics employed by so many of our "friends".
3.)Start a different BOIlike forum section in which questions are asked regarding "Bad Guy" threads, however off-topic and diversionary posts are removed. This would ensure that the questions and answers to the questions are not lost in the jumble of nonsense. All that would remain is the questions and the answers...

Granted, human nature dictates that none of these suggestions would repair the problems entirely (Bad Guys always find a way), but if implemented properly may be able to greatly reduce the effeciency of Genuine Bad Guys to remain in business.

Sorry for the long post, but hopefully some of my thoughts make some sense...

 

[Lucille]

While I agree that banning a member simply based on alleged bad transactions is not a reasonable approach to dealing with problems, simply ignoring the problem does not resolve anything either.

Respectfully disagree. If people do their research and if there is info on their vendor, prospective buyers can see how their vendor copes with adversity. Even if a particular issue is not resolved, if a vendor turns the thread into a horse and pony show, that says a lot about him/her and I for one would not buy from such a person.

 

[ReptileJay]

Respectfully disagree. If people do their research and if there is info on their vendor, prospective buyers can see how their vendor copes with adversity. Even if a particular issue is not resolved, if a vendor turns the thread into a horse and pony show, that says a lot about him/her and I for one would not buy from such a person.

I THINK I meant to say "ignoring the person" not "ignoring the problem" (but I could be wrong)... I'm only half paying attention to what I'm saying today...

Either way, you're absolutely right in saying that the way a person portrays themself says a lot about them. My EXACT reason for refusing to do business with Dan S, regardless of what transactions he's had in the past. I don't NEED to see proof of a bad transaction to know I would want to avoid a person...

 

[Southern Wolf]

The worst part, and what I fear the most is, that because of how heated it gets with Ed diverting issues and Nicole's never guilty attitude is that we (the ones who contribute to the site by posting) will slowly get infractions for what we say in their threads. To me, its no longer worth taking that risk for all of us. Personally, I am glad that most have slowly stopped posting on their threads albeit by infractions, suspensions, etc... Nothing good will come out of continuing to post on their threads unless it pertains to the specific case at hand.

wow... I go on vacation... and apparently miss ALOT.

 

[R. Eventide]

3.)When all else fails, just stop posting, ignore all questions and comments, and simply let the thread fall to the bottom of the BOI, going unseen by those who do not specifically search for it.
4.)Then of course we can't forget to lock ALL our classified ads so that no one can inform potential buyers about previous unresolved problems.

3) If people can't be bothered to do a search for a potential seller, then that's not the fault of the BOI or Fauna or anyone/anything else. I'm sorry, but if someone doesn't know how to search on a messageboard, then they need to go learn how to.

4) Again, if people are too lazy to check out a seller on the BOI, they're probably going to be too lazy to check a link in the ad. I mean, look at the number of classifieds that say "SOLD" that have people still asking about the animal for sale (sometimes years afterward). People can't even be bothered to read the whole ad!

Sorry if I come across as harsh; I just have no tolerance or sympathy for people who don't want to put any effort in finding more info about a seller...and then [usually] whine afterward when they get scammed.

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

Sorry if I come across as harsh; I just have no tolerance or sympathy for people who don't want to put any effort in finding more info about a seller...and then [usually] whine afterward when they get scammed.

My favorites are the ones that DO read the threads, and go ahead with the transactions anyway.


The BOI is a tool available to all. Do your searches, ask your inquiry's. Nobody is gonna cover your butt better then YOU!