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Bell Patternless Albinos. Think they'll be as hard to produce as the Trempers?

I would be able to tell if it was a Tremper het Rainwater, or Rainwater het Tremper!!!
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even if they were from the SAME parents?

i think it would be much more difficult than you say. is it a light colored tremper or is it a rainwater? maybe its a double albino... is that one a dark colored rainwater or a tremper.... hmmmm.....

but you know what...im gonna try.
 
chad you do YOUR research!!!! and you will find that the only tremper PA's(that i know of to date) come from one breeder (or his lines) and that breeder has questionable animals i believed produced (or purchased) by the golden gecko originally... its been along time since tremper PA's have been talked about but maybe someone on here recalls the entire story in detail

what are you claiming? that tremper patternless albinos are actually rainwater patternless albinos? your kidding right? you can buy tremper albinos that are het for patternless. am i to actually believe that these are double mutation tremper/rainwater albinos that are het for patternless? or are you trying to convince me that the presence of rainwater contamintion (whatever thats supposed to mean) serves a a glue with the tremper and patternless genes.
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hey chris that was a really cool tremper before it browned reminds me alot of what we are seeing now adays. coincidence or maybe now they are being selectively bred to be lighter or both?
i think some breeders selectively bred and other "the method"

what a crock of sh1t this man puts out sometimes
 
Now as for the Tremper PA debate, I'll simply do this...

Patternless Albinos are one of the hottest Leopard Gecko projects. These beautiful geckos range from a pale yellow to neon yellow with carrottails. We are developing breeding projects which will eventually produce solid orange patternless albinos all the way to the tip of their tails!

It sounds like there is a lot of debate over my Tremper Patternless Albinos and with good reason, considering their rarity. Here is the story of how I produced mine:

I bought a male Tremper albino from Ron Tremper in '99. In 2000, I bred him to several female patternless breeders that I had in my collection since '97. I produced a number of double het offspring from this breeding. I raised up several groups of females and a couple of males. In 2001, I bred them together and produced Tremper albinos, patternless, and normals- no patternless albinos. In the fall of 2001, I purchased a subadult female Tremper Patternless Albino from Golden Gecko. Mark told me he produced 4 that year. I bred her to a super hypo carrottail in 2002- producing only 2 eggs, both of which hatched out male, one of which is a super hypo carrottail. In 2002, I bred my double het groups together again. In June of 2002, I hatched a TREMPER PATTERNLESS ALBINO from the group of double hets- the ones I produced here from breeding my original Tremper albino male to patternless females. He turned out to be a male. Now, in 2003, I'm breeding him to the Patternless Albino female purchased from Golden Gecko and 2 Albino possible het for patternless that were produced from double het to double het breeding. As of May 27th, I've produced 8 TREMPER PATTERNLESS ALBINOS, none of which are for sale yet. These are True Trempers unless Ron's albinos are tainted with the Rainwater strain and I think we all know how unlikely that is. I'll have some available for sale later this summer. As for pricing, although they are much rarer than the Rainwaters, I didn't feel like the market would handle a huge price difference, considering they are fairly similar to the Rainwaters. Anyway, I hope this clears some of the speculation up.
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The quote was taken from:Tremper - Garrick DeMeyer's site (crested.gecko.com)

Chris
 
Here is where the problem comes in. The gecko bought from Golden Gecko was marked as a LV line at one time. I remember because I was looking for PA's at the time. Now having delt with Mark I do believe it was an honest mistake, but he was working almost exclusively with LV lines at the time. I just with he was still around in the business to clear things up. I do think the bells will be produced as soon as there are good enough numbers out there.
 
what the hell does tainted or contaminated mean???? rainwater albino is a single gene. either the animal is a tremper albino, a rainwater albino or both. there is no in between!!!

if you cross two trempers het for patternless you will get some tremper PAs (roughly 25%). www.VMSherp.com has them. www.crestedgecko.com has them.
 
better slow down with the calculator. i know someone who has one of golden's originals (for a good period of time, 3 years minimum), and it has never produced another (tremper) patternless albino.
just because the cornsnake manual says you should get 1 in 16 per double het does not make it a fact in real life.
there is no huge conspiracy, in my opinion, if they were produced they would be for sale.
the smarter question would be how many people produced rainwater patternless albinos from hets and not homozygous animals. the answer would probably be fewer than you think, but maybe not.
howard
 
im aware that those figures are not exact.

i do not own a cornsnake manual...or a cornsnake. my partner deals with them in hybridization projects (and i think he has a few high dollar corns) but thats all.
 
my post really was not aimed at anyone as offense. all you have to do is look at the number of original homozygous animals to realize that the leo genes are not following the specific 25% ratio that snake breeders are used to working with.
 
snake breeders dont claim to get exact numbers either. sometimes the allelles just dont line up.

if i bought a het and three years later didnt produce a single animal it was het for i would start to question what it is i really had.

so this was a tremper albino het for patternless? what has he bred it to? and what HAS he produced from it?
 
i was reading vms' website and i disagree about the vegas people starting the myth of the blazing blizzard. Ron Tremper himself is the one that says the odds are like 1 in 6400, where his numbers come from i could not say; nor is my understanding of genetics ample to make any such claim.

i think it is great that these hard to produce animals have finally been produced. i go to every florida show, and i have still not seen the blazing blizzard that the bell's have.

i will give you some info i have com up with on vegas patternless ablinos.
last year i prouced 16 from first year breeders. all were from homozygous animals. i produced 11 patternless het for albinos from a Pa to a patternless het for albino. Man did i think I was screwed on the het. this year the het has only thrown 2 patternless that do not show the albino gene. now i worked on hets way before i saw my first patternless albino with zero results in 2 years and none of the double hets(that i produced) have ever produced a pa even when being bred by a patternless albino. i for one would love a formal explanation of the genes and why they are reluctant to combine.

and those #s from tremper were the results of me asking directly. if i am not mistaken i believe he said 64000, but that seems a little outlandish, and setup in daytona is not the easiest place for me to hear, bad hearing in crowds (oh-well).
but he does have patternless albinos, but he sure would not sell one to me a few years back, and i bet not today either. remember ron is a business man; so take what you get out of him as an opinion, yes he has done a ton of work with establishing animals, but it does not make him infallable (just ask robin)lol

the best thing is that now it is no longer myth that these animals can be produced. it shows nothing is impossible.
 
Holy cow!!!!

Geez, I ask one question and look what happens!!! I've created a monster....

I'm sorry if this subject has caused anykind of irritation on anyones behalf... I was just aware of the fact that Tremper PA's were very, very hard to produce and was simply wondering if we'd run into the same problems when we tried to hatch out Bell PA's.....

I don't know if this is of interest to anyone, but I managed to talk to Bill Brant (Gourmet Rodent) last winter... He actually hosted a reptile seminar for certain employee's....

One of the questions that I'd asked hims was whether or not he'd produced any Tremper PA's... And as of last november or december he'd managed to hatch out 8 homozygous animals... All of which were from the Tremper bloodline.

Just a bit interesting, so I thought'd I'd throw that out there.

HOWEVER, I'd still like to know if there are going to be the same problems with the Bell PA's.... I'm excited to hear what Justyn has to say about this... Hmmmm, maybe Kelli as well.

Thanks guys/gals... NOW, lets play a little bit nicer... :)
 
chad
the animal i was referring to is a supposed true tremper patternless albino produced by golden geckos, sibling to the one that crestedgecko has. the person who has it works with about 500 breeder geckos and i wish my quality could match, but to date i know of no other patternless albinos that he has produced. he works with tremper albinos exclusively, and me vegas.
like i said in the other post: i would love the true explanation as to why these genes do not combine frequently, but i do not think it could be written as a black or white answer.
howard
and i am not partial to any form of albinism. it just worked out that i no longer worked with the trempers; which seems to have been a huge mistake. i think the hybinos are going to prove to be tricky as well when using hets. most of my genetics can be traced to bill brant, craig stewart, and ray hine's(except the albinos). ray will tell you the carrot is much, much harder to get onto the hybino than just the superhypo albino, but when it happens , well you have seen some of the results (pure bad a$$). another albino trait being finicky, so i thought i would throw that in
 
i certainly did not meen to irritate anyone. chad has some ?'s that i have happened to be interested in, and i shared what i have run into.
i think it will be as hard to produce. but remember it only takes one male and one female with both traits visible to produce them by the bucket load.
Bill Brant has an awesome facility, with thousands of geckos. if anyone can hit 8 from hets it would be him.

i think the vegas pa was not as easy to produce as everyone thinks. i personally made a huge mistake in pointing out where a homozygous pa came from to another breeder; needless to say it was one of the first few produced(i had to delete this part, it is not appropriate to discuss further). i would love to know how many breeders of the vegas strain produced their p albinos from double hets. i know of 3(not saying there have not been more, this was 2 years ago), and that is where my homozygous animals came from. kelli is one of them and she could probably shed more light on this.

anyway, i did not try to offend anyone. and i think chad's questions are good ones. debate is a good thing, if everyone followed blindly there would be no blazing blizzard or whatever is to be next
 
for the record i was in no way offended by anything you said (okay maybe the cornsnake thing). i agree that debate is necessary. thanks howard for stimulating such an interesting debate.

i just wonder how much politics, lies and propaganda are involved with the beliefs that one strain is more difficult to combine with other morphs than another. i refuse to buy into any of it without cold hard facts.
 
yes he has done a ton of work with establishing animals, but it does not make him infallable (just ask robin)lol
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ahhhhhhh yes ask me... im sure he is prolly a ince guy in person however as far as reptiles his is first and foremost a business man. do i like him, really dont know him, do i like what he has done and how he has treated people? no... do i think he is a world class bullshltter? yes that comes along with the business man part............... do i think he knows the exact genetics on SOME of his leos? no.......... would i buy anything from him? shoot i wouldnt even buy a speck of dirt off the man let alone any reptile he has for sale... i saw "the gecko gods" animals in daytona of last year needless to say i wasnt at all impressed.



as far as the tremper PA thing i have a feeling either this year or nexr we should know if the animals in question from the golden geckos were or are infact las vegas or trempers.......................
blazing blizzards i have seen one in person at marks bells table last year........... white, pink tail eyes and light head........... coulnt really see its eyes however they looked like they might have been red whatever they were not pink more of a dark color... the one he had looked like a juvinile maybe 20 or so grams
 
Hross...

Here's why there are so many Vegas PAs. The same year, 1998, Tim produced Max (his very first albino) he also produced a PA. I believe Kevin Hanley was the 2nd to produce Rainwater albinos besides Tim and also produced PAs. If Tim's albino group was indeed pure WC and the rumor of him buying an albino is not true, then boy did he hit the nail. In Tim's Vivarium article documenting the albino I believe his WCs came in in 96, he quarantined them and bred them out to quite a bit of his then stock, which consisted of golden gecko tangs and hi-yellows, patternless, etc. This answers why most Rainwaters are fairly bright yellow, at least the initially offered ones appeared so to me. But what are the odds of breeding a WC that was het for albino to a patternless, passing the gene on, and then breeding those siblings back and hatching the first albino and PA?! I could answer it if I had a better understanding of the pedigree lineage.

EDIT:

Oh and in regards to the blazing blizzard, so far the only ones produced have been via the Tremper albino gene. I had talked to Kelli ealier this year on the phone and she had informed me of this. I don't remember all the details she gave and I'll leave it up to her on whether or not to shed more light on the matter.
 
Back to the Bell's and the bell pa and bell blizzard

Kim is in no short supply of either patternless, blizzard or her strain of albino. I am not aware of them producing a patternless bell. I am to understand that she had a blazing blizzard in daytona, but i did not see it (kicking myself, because daytona is only an hour and a half away and i was working there).

These two have pretty much an endless supply of stuff to work on, but i think they have been trying some of these combos for 4-5 maybe more years. Now that could be of minimal importance if they were working with only 50-100 animals, but they were some of the first to sell the blizzards and leucistics and their albino wholesale. I am not saying any one strain is harder to work with, because i think they are all difficult when working with multiple recessive traits. But I would think they would have hit it by now, and they might have and be holding everything back to flood another oddity. But that would seem odd, unless the animal is strikingly different than the other pa; it would not be worth much like the blizzard when it came out, unless it just warps the mind .
i have to run, have a good night
howard
 
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