Inquiry Ben Siegel Reptiles

[alexestrada17]

hi my name is alex estrada and this is my experience with Ben Siegel Reptiles.

I spoke with ben via email on friday on purchasing a 100% het. pied male (adult proven breeder)..i then asked him if he had any 50% or 66% het pied females...he responded by saying that he had some 08 50% het. piebald females. so i then went ahead and asked if they had pied "markers"..even though its not 100% positive they will be hets....its a sense of security i guess..he said yes they had some striping..today i recive my snakes and when i open the box the reciept says (2) 33% Het. Pied Females..when i look into the box the bags that the females were in were also labeled 33% het. pied..even though he told me the were 50% and on the paypal "messeage" i sent with my payment i stated.."this payment is for 1.0 Proven Adult 100% het. Pied and 0.2 08 50% het. pied"..when i called today Bryan the manger was there but not Ben so i was told i would recieve a call...i then sent them an email stating what happened and asking how this could have happened and most importantly how they were going to fix it...here i will include the email converstaions and pictures...i will post again once i hear from Ben Siegel Reptiles and will let everyone know how they fixed this problem if they will fix it.
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Picture:
http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww320/alexestrada17/100_0784.jpg
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Emails:

no balance due--it is $250 delivered in miami--Ben

Ben Siegel Reptiles
2245 west hillsboro blvd
Deerfield Beach, FL 33442
ph-954-427-8222 fax-954-427-8683

----- Original Message -----
From: "alejandro estrada" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2009 7:33:00 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: Message about: ADULT PROVEN 100% HET PIED MALE-$125-pics

I sent the money I would like an email with balance due and shipping for Monday.

thanks in advance,
Alex

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 3, 2009, at 7:02 PM, [email protected] wrote:

They have some belly striping--Ben

Ben Siegel Reptiles
2245 west hillsboro blvd
Deerfield Beach, FL 33442
ph-954-427-8222 fax-954-427-8683

----- Original Message -----
From: "alejandro estrada" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2009 5:55:17 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: Message about: ADULT PROVEN 100% HET PIED MALE-$125-pics

okay, perfect..I'm sorry for all the questions but this is the last one. do the females have "pied markers"?

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 3, 2009, at 5:39 PM, [email protected] wrote:

$250 delivered-Ben

Ben Siegel Reptiles
2245 west hillsboro blvd
Deerfield Beach, FL 33442
ph-954-427-8222 fax-954-427-8683

----- Original Message -----
From: "alejandro estrada" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2009 5:26:03 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: Message about: ADULT PROVEN 100% HET PIED MALE-$125-pics

I know the "pied markers" are not a 100% indication of a 100% het pied but I would prefer them with the "markers" if that's available I would like to know...also what would be the toatal price for the 100%het male and 2 50% het females including shipping to Miami,Fl 33183

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 3, 2009, at 5:00 PM, [email protected] wrote:

the 50% hets are $100 ea for females---they are 08 animals-Ben

Ben Siegel Reptiles
2245 west hillsboro blvd
Deerfield Beach, FL 33442
ph-954-427-8222 fax-954-427-8683

----- Original Message -----
From: "alejandro estrada" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2009 4:49:14 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: Message about: ADULT PROVEN 100% HET PIED MALE-$125-pics

around how old are they and how much would it be for the male and 2 50% hets?
Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 3, 2009, at 4:01 PM, [email protected] wrote:

a few 50 percent females

Ben
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From: [email protected]
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 15:42:11 -0400
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Message about: ADULT PROVEN 100% HET PIED MALE-$125-pics
okay i just have one more question, you wouldnt have any 50% or 66% het pied females available?

thanks in advance,
alex

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, Jul 3, 2009 2:52 pm
Subject: Re: Message about: ADULT PROVEN 100% HET PIED MALE-$125-pics

paypal is at [email protected]

we can ship monday

Ben

Ben Siegel Reptiles
2245 west hillsboro blvd
Deerfield Beach, FL 33442
ph-954-427-8222 fax-954-427-8683

----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2009 2:36:25 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: Message about: ADULT PROVEN 100% HET PIED MALE-$125-pics

okay perfect, what email do i use to send the money via paypal?
as well as schedule a shipping date.

thanks in advacne,
Alex


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, Jul 3, 2009 2:19 pm
Subject: Re: Message about: ADULT PROVEN 100% HET PIED MALE-$125-pics

Yes
He is cb
He would have an invoice stating genetics
Ben
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From: [email protected]
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:20:12 -0400
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Message about: ADULT PROVEN 100% HET PIED MALE-$125-pics
okay, and do you have any type of certificate or something assuring his genetics, is he feeding, and is he CB?
and how can i pay do you accept paypal?

thanks in advance,
Alex


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:53 am
Subject: Re: Message about: ADULT PROVEN 100% HET PIED MALE-$125-pics

we are only 45 minutes from you driving----but if you want it shipped it would be $25-Ben

Ben Siegel Reptiles
2245 west hillsboro blvd
Deerfield Beach, FL 33442
ph-954-427-8222 fax-954-427-8683

----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2009 10:25:07 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: Message about: ADULT PROVEN 100% HET PIED MALE-$125-pics

okay, so how much would shipping be im in miami,fl zip code 33183


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, Jul 3, 2009 8:29 am
Subject: Re: Message about: ADULT PROVEN 100% HET PIED MALE-$125-pics

I would say approx 1000 grams--he is an 06 animal-Ben

Ben Siegel Reptiles
2245 west hillsboro blvd
Deerfield Beach, FL 33442
ph-954-427-8222 fax-954-427-8683

----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2009 1:10:02 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Message about: ADULT PROVEN 100% HET PIED MALE-$125-pics

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NOTE: This message was sent to you via the Kingsnake.com Classifieds. If you feel this message is fraudulent or abusive please forward it to [email protected].
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im very interested in the het pied male.
how much is he weighing in at and do you know what year he was born in.
also how much would shipping be to miami,fl 33183

thanks,
alex

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[alexestrada17]

http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww320/alexestrada17/100_0784.jpg

 

[Shadera]

How the heck do you even get a 33% het pied? The emails back and forth clearly say you wanted and expected 50% hets, that's what you should have gotten.

 

[alexestrada17]

i know...and you get 33% by breeding a 66% het to a normal...

 

[JCCS]

Ben should make this right for you if there is a problem. Also, there is no such thing as a 33% het, they would just be poss hets at that point.

Chris

 

[Royal Morphz]

Guys just like when there are clutch percentages that percentage is per egg. Example Mojo to Norm: 50% Norm and 50% Mojo. The 66% clutch is just that But in a 2 animal clutch wouldn't each animal have half that chance at being het. This is just a theory that might explain why Ben put 33% on each bag. I hope Ben comes here and sheds a bit of light on the issue at hand.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Guys just like when there are clutch percentages that percentage is per egg. Example Mojo to Norm: 50% Norm and 50% Mojo. The 66% clutch is just that But in a 2 animal clutch wouldn't each animal have half that chance at being het. This is just a theory that might explain why Ben put 33% on each bag. I hope Ben comes here and sheds a bit of light on the issue at hand.

The percentages listed for possible hets are mendelian averages and each egg represents an independent calculation, independent chances and odds.

The number of eggs hatched from the clutch have nothing to do with it.

Technically a 33% possible het is possible, it's just very very improbable. Every percentile value between zero and one hundred could be represented through couplings, mixing in hets, possible hets and homozygous animals for normalcy or the trait in question- but getting to 33% would require a very high number of breedings, with no subsequent confirmation of the genetics of any of the previous generations (since once any given possible het proves out, it's no longer a possibility but a certainty, which in turn alters the listed probabilities for subsequent generations).

The chances of an actual 33% het being produced, where that's an exact accurate mathematical representation of the probability involved are... low. It would require a large number of generational crossed with fairly specific choices for the parent animals of each and with nothing related to it from the start of the project either proving out or being crossed to anything else that might prove out the genetics from any of the steps. Given the average clutch sizes and age till maturity of balls, it'd take a couple decades and involve literally hundreds of animals.

 

[Shadera]

At least if they were 50%'ers you'd have the peace of mind that one parent carried the gene and you had a chance in hell of getting pied. With one parent only 66% possible het, then heck - that might as well be sold as a normal.

 

[Seamus Haley]

At least if they were 50%'ers you'd have the peace of mind that one parent carried the gene and you had a chance in hell of getting pied. With one parent only 66% possible het, then heck - that might as well be sold as a normal.

Fifty percent is also a possible het. And it's a lower chance than a 66% possible het.

Possible hets should not be sold as normals. The values may be similar, as the supply of animals carrying that genetic material go up and the demand goes down or is fulfilled, but they should not be sold as normals. Some people deliberately seek out phenotypical normalcy and should be informed in advance if anything they are purchasing is a het or possible het.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Technically a 33% possible het is possible, it's just very very improbable. Every percentile value between zero and one hundred could be represented through couplings, mixing in hets, possible hets and homozygous animals for normalcy or the trait in question- but getting to 33% would require a very high number of breedings, with no subsequent confirmation of the genetics of any of the previous generations (since once any given possible het proves out, it's no longer a possibility but a certainty, which in turn alters the listed probabilities for subsequent generations).

The chances of an actual 33% het being produced, where that's an exact accurate mathematical representation of the probability involved are... low. It would require a large number of generational crossed with fairly specific choices for the parent animals of each and with nothing related to it from the start of the project either proving out or being crossed to anything else that might prove out the genetics from any of the steps. Given the average clutch sizes and age till maturity of balls, it'd take a couple decades and involve literally hundreds of animals.

Scratch that whole pile of text, I approached my punnet calculations back-ass-wards and went for 33% the hard way. None of what I wrote there is accurate.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Unless my math is completely off, the only three levels of possible hets that can truly be calculated to a punnett square mathematical percentage are 50%, 66% and 100%. All of these can be calculated due to the fact that either visuals or animals guaranteed 100% het are involved. You have to know the genetic makeup to a certainty to properly use a Punnet Square.

 

[Shadera]

Fifty percent is also a possible het. And it's a lower chance than a 66% possible het.

Possible hets should not be sold as normals. The values may be similar, as the supply of animals carrying that genetic material go up and the demand goes down or is fulfilled, but they should not be sold as normals. Some people deliberately seek out phenotypical normalcy and should be informed in advance if anything they are purchasing is a het or possible het.

When I said sold as a normal, I meant sold at a normal's price given the very low probability that the animal carries anything. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who couldn't in good conscience sell anything less than 50% at above normal prices. That is purely my opinion, which leaves me with about ninety eight cents.

I realize 50 is lower than 66, but I think you're missing where my mind was wandering.

100% het pied x normal = 50% possible hets
66% het pied x normal = 33% possible hets

Does that make more sense, the direction my thoughts were taking? At least with the 100% het x normal pairing there's a chance that eventually one of those babies will carry the gene. In the 66% x normal pairing, it's not known if the possible parent carries the gene so you could crank out babies all day long with none of them carrying the gene.

OP, I hope he makes this right for you.

 

[alexestrada17]

i think thats true...now i have another question and i would like to know what you guys think...i dont even think these female 33% het pieds are 2008 animals...here i included the pictures..and weights...i have a female pinstripe that i got Dec. 30, 2008 at 72g...she has been fed 1 mouse or 1 rat pup once a week...she is now 385 grams...these babies are 240 grams and 100 something grams...i also included a picture of them next to the late 08 pinstripe. please let me know what you guys think if they are 08's or early 09's..

http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww320/alexestrada17/100_0787.jpg
http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww320/alexestrada17/100_0788.jpg

http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww320/alexestrada17/100_0785.jpg
http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww320/alexestrada17/100_0786.jpg

the pin is is in shed...but here so you can compare sizes...i got the pinstripe Dec. 30, 2009 @ 72g...
http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww320/alexestrada17/100_0791.jpg

 

[Royal Morphz]

i think thats true...now i have another question and i would like to know what you guys think...i dont even think these female 33% het pieds are 2008 animals...here i included the pictures..and weights...i have a female pinstripe that i got Dec. 30, 2008 at 72g...she has been fed 1 mouse or 1 rat pup once a week...she is now 385 grams...these babies are 240 grams and 100 something grams...i also included a picture of them next to the late 08 pinstripe. please let me know what you guys think if they are 08's or early 09's..

http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww320/alexestrada17/100_0787.jpg
http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww320/alexestrada17/100_0788.jpg

http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww320/alexestrada17/100_0785.jpg
http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww320/alexestrada17/100_0786.jpg

the pin is is in shed...but here so you can compare sizes...i got the pinstripe Dec. 30, 2009 @ 72g...
http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww320/alexestrada17/100_0791.jpg

Alex people that have animals for sale on the scale Ben does, they tend to maintanance feed which is just the minimum amounts so they don't out grow their temporary tubs.

 

[Miss Tuniwha]

i think thats true...now i have another question and i would like to know what you guys think...i dont even think these female 33% het pieds are 2008 animals...here i included the pictures..and weights...i have a female pinstripe that i got Dec. 30, 2008 at 72g...she has been fed 1 mouse or 1 rat pup once a week...she is now 385 grams...these babies are 240 grams and 100 something grams...i also included a picture of them next to the late 08 pinstripe. please let me know what you guys think if they are 08's or early 09's..

http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww320/alexestrada17/100_0787.jpg
http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww320/alexestrada17/100_0788.jpg

http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww320/alexestrada17/100_0785.jpg
http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww320/alexestrada17/100_0786.jpg

the pin is is in shed...but here so you can compare sizes...i got the pinstripe Dec. 30, 2009 @ 72g...
http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww320/alexestrada17/100_0791.jpg

As Tim mentioned. Many breeders are intending to sell the babies, not keep them. Therefor they do not feed them as much as we do.

Example.

Last year I produced 3 clutches. Sold most of them to friends, a couple to strangers, and kept a couple.

Recently, the 2 people I sold to that were strangers, ran into issues and needed to sell them. So I purchased them back.

The ones I kept range from 450g to 600g. One friend has one that is over 700g.

The 2 babies I bought back range from 220g to 250g

so they most likely ARE 08's.




Have you gotten a reply yet from Ben? If I recall, he does have a good reputation, but with the bigger companies mix ups happen.

Hopefully as soon as he can, he will right this mistake.

 

[alexestrada17]

no he has not gotten back..according to Bryan the mamager Ben is on a boat....

 

[Rainbowboaman]

I would have waited untill you talked to Ben rather then start a thread the same day you received the snakes.

 

[alexestrada17]

im just stating what has happened...it doesnt matter if i spoke to Ben b/c the reality is that he got my order wrong...and now he is not there..but i have not said anything wrong about ben or his company just simply stating what has happened to me..and letting everyone know how he will resolve it.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

No one is saying that you did anything "wrong" Alex. However, given that the animals arrived only this morning and given Ben's stellar reputation in the industry, it would have been prudent to give him a little time to address the situation before posting anything on the BOI. Big name or small, it is only common courtesy. The BOI is generally here for problems that don't get resolved.

I can assure you that Ben will take care of any material error that has occurred. He doesn't have the reputation he does for nothing

 

[alexestrada17]

im sure he will resolve it. he didnt seem like a bad guy...but this is a pretty upsetting situation...