best beginer venomous snake

[jamie_herp08]

what do you guys think is the best 'hot' snake to start with? feel free to elaborate or give stories why.

1. copperhead
2. cottonmouth
3. rattlesnake
4. other (elaborate)

 

[hhmoore]

In a way, it depends on the person involved...but for a generic response, I will say a copperhead. They stay a very workable size, care is pretty straightforward (and they are pretty forgiving of many husbandry mistakes), and their bite is not generally considered lethal.

Since you specifically stated "start with", it should be noted that working with a copperhead does not necessarily give the required experience to keep other venomous snakes. As I have stated many times, nothing behaves quite like a pi$$ed off rattlesnake on a hook...likewise, cobras are a totally different experience.

 

[Vince]

beginer hot-snake is an oxymoron

 

[Junkyard]

Out of curiosity, why do you want to own a "hot" snake? Do you have quality medical that can take care of you if you were to be bitten? Also, do you have the means to pay the medical bills?

Your best way to get experience is to find someone who has been working with venomous for over 10 years, and help them out. I say 10 years because that is, in my opinion, long enough to begin to understand the venomous snakes. They have a lot more experience you can learn from, then someone who has owned a venomous snake for only 5 years. Even after 10 years anyone can make a stupid mistake and be tagged.

Personally I have no desire to keep venomous, so that is all I can offer for advice. I have nothing against those that do keep them, especially if they are the one who are out there milking the snakes and providing the venom necessary to save the lives of others that are bit.

 

[Rakshasanyc]

beginer hot-snake is an oxymoron

Everyone who keeps hots started somewhere. I would say (with the disclaimer that I don't keep venomous snakes myself) that you shouldn't keep venomous snakes until you are pretty skilled in keeping nonvenomous snakes. But I don't see why someone who has half a brain and a lot of experience working with i.e. ill-tempered ratsnakes and/or large pythons couldn't successfully keep any of the snakes mentioned above without getting bitten or killing the herp

 

[hhmoore]

I don't see why someone who has half a brain and a lot of experience working with i.e. ill-tempered ratsnakes and/or large pythons couldn't successfully keep any of the snakes mentioned above without getting bitten or killing the herp

Because venomous snakes are totally different from ill tempered ratsnakes and large pythons. They move in different ways, react differently, can bite you when ratsnakes and boids could not, blah blah blah. Now look at a few of the common mistakes that "happen to everybody": bites and escapes. It really doesn't matter if you get bitten by a ratsnake...or even a fairly large python. And it isn't a huge deal if a ratsnake or python gets loose, but if a hot gets loose...just think of the potential.

 

[Rakshasanyc]

It really doesn't matter if you get bitten by a ratsnake...or even a fairly large python.

If I had a choice between getting bitten by a 2' copperhead or getting constricted by a full-grown retic, burm or green anaconda, I'd take the copperhead bite without a moment's hesitation. (Not that I'd be thrilled about either possibility, mind you...). A feeding error with a 15-20' constrictor can leave you just as dead as getting tagged by a krait or taipan -- and there's no antivenin available for crushed ribs and internal organs.

The original poster had said that no beginner should deal with venomous snakes... and my point was that everyone who works with hots had a "first hot" somewhere along the line. OTOH, I also think that most of the people who successfully work with hots (i.e. the people who didn't wind up gracing darwinawards.com or losing digits or limbs) had pretty substantial experience working with other snakes before they started keeping hots.

If we're talking about "first venomous snake," a copperhead might be a decent choice. If we're talking about "first snake, period," a copperhead would be a Very Bad Idea, although probably not quite so bad as a Mojave or Diamondback.

 

[hhmoore]

now your changing the rules, lol. I didn't say anything about being constricted by a full grown retic, burm, or green anaconda...I said it doesn't really matter if you are BITTEN by a ratsnake, or even a fairly large python. As an example, I will say - up to 15 ft. MOST of the defensive type bites, even in that size range, do not cause tremendous amounts of damage (I have seen photos of injuries caused by bites by LARGE WC snakes though...
and I would pass on taking those, too). The bottom line is that working with large boids is nothing like working with hots. Sure, you can get just as dead, but that is another subject entirely.

 

[Rakshasanyc]

now your changing the rules, lol. I didn't say anything about being constricted by a full grown retic, burm, or green anaconda...I said it doesn't really matter if you are BITTEN by a ratsnake, or even a fairly large python. As an example, I will say - up to 15 ft. MOST of the defensive type bites, even in that size range, do not cause tremendous amounts of damage (I have seen photos of injuries caused by bites by LARGE WC snakes though...
and I would pass on taking those, too). The bottom line is that working with large boids is nothing like working with hots. Sure, you can get just as dead, but that is another subject entirely.

I can see your point. On the other hand, I might say that working with giant pythons teaches you (or should teach you) to treat your snakes with caution. If you're used to working with an animal which is capable of killing you, you may be able to transfer that mindset over to working with something that injures by biting rather than constriction. It's not so much a matter of "I know exactly how to deal with this copperhead/pigmy rattler/etc." but rather, "I know how to treat a potentially dangerous animal with respect."

And as far as working with ratsnakes goes: I would think that learning how to avoid getting bitten is definitely a skill which comes in handy when dealing with venomous reptiles. That kind of mindset, again, isn't something you are going to get with i.e. a ball python or other even-tempered animals. Sure, a rattler's strike is different than a ratsnake's biting style, but it's a matter of knowing in your gut -- not as an intellectual exercise -- that yes, snakes bite sometimes and if I put my extremeties in striking range I'm likely to suffer for it.

Here's a question: what would you recommend as a starter for someone who is interested in working with hots but who has no experience with them? I'd agree that you have to treat a venomous snake differently than even the most ill-tempered nonvenomous animal... but would you agree that one should have some experience with nonvenomous reptiles before deciding that a cobra would look lovely in the dining room?

 

[Vince]

Everyone who keeps hots started somewhere. I would say (with the disclaimer that I don't keep venomous snakes myself) that you shouldn't keep venomous snakes until you are pretty skilled in keeping nonvenomous snakes. But I don't see why someone who has half a brain and a lot of experience working with i.e. ill-tempered ratsnakes and/or large pythons couldn't successfully keep any of the snakes mentioned above without getting bitten or killing the herp

lol ill tempered ratsnakes? a ratsnake can bite you all day and all you need is a band aide. Yes everyone starts some place. But most work with other animals before purchasing their own. Unless things have changed by law you need so many hours before you can even get a licence.

 

[Vince]

i think im going to get a nile croc for christmas. After all I have worked with an purty nasty green iggy.

 

[hhmoore]

Unless things have changed by law you need so many hours before you can even get a licence.

A valid point, but not universally applicable...many states do not require a license to keep venomous, and not all of the ones that do require any documented experience.

As for the question about what nonvenomous snakes I would recommend in preparation for venomous...that would depend entirely on the desired venomous snake. Before you go throwing examples at me, I'll give some basic criteria. The "prep" snake should be adult (sub adult may be ok, depending on the species and your interpretation) , and freshly WC. There should be some physical and behavioral similarities between the it and the desired hot. EVERY aspect of care should be undertaken as if it was, in fact, that animal. That means everything, with no lapses/breaks...no hands on contact that you wouldn't have with the hot, no reaching in to get the water bowl while the snake is "sleeping" or turned away. It still isn't a fair comparison, but it will at least get you used to the techniques...until your rattlesnake jumps right off the hook and ends up loose on the floor; or the cobra either slips the hook or turns, and starts crawling up the hook towards you.

 

[hhmoore]

I know that some will squawk about my saying the "prep" snake should be a freshly WC adult, but working with CB or LTC just doesn't require the same finesse or awareness...they are significantly easier to deal with, and much less driven to defend themselves (they don't try as hard to get to you). Of course, one has to go into this with the awareness that they may be stuck with that snake...I mean, face it - most people would rather spend the money on a CB or LTC than your used up "prep" snake that you have put no effort into calming/handling.

 

[Rakshasanyc]

i think im going to get a nile croc for christmas. After all I have worked with an purty nasty green iggy.

Somebody who had worked with a few nasty green iguanas would probably have better luck trying to keep crocodilians than someone who had never kept a lizard in his life and decided an alligator would be a Really Cool Pet. More to the point of this discussion, he would definitely have better luck with beaded lizards or gilas.

I might also add that there are a lot of idiots keeping hot snakes, and comparatively few of them wind up getting killed or maimed by their animals. I'm not endorsing this kind of behavior, but it does seem that there are folks out there who are going from nonvenomous to venomous keeping without suffering loss of life or limb in the process. (Of course, lots of people who smoke cigarettes don't get lung cancer and lots of drunk drivers don't wrap themselves around poles either...).

 

[hhmoore]

I might also add that there are a lot of idiots keeping hot snakes, and comparatively few of them wind up getting killed or maimed by their animals. I'm not endorsing this kind of behavior, but it does seem that there are folks out there who are going from nonvenomous to venomous keeping without suffering loss of life or limb in the process. (Of course, lots of people who smoke cigarettes don't get lung cancer and lots of drunk drivers don't wrap themselves around poles either...).

That is true...but how many of the snakes die prematurely, because the person did not care for them properly (I know, this happens to a lot of reptiles, but perhaps more so with hots)...anytime routine care becomes too much of a chore, or frightening to the keeper, the animals suffer. I did a rescue some years ago, in which a cobra was abandoned in an apartment...the cage was absolutely disgusting, the snake was thin and dehydrated because it was aggressive and the guy was afraid to open the cage to do routine care. (the thing that got me at the time was that when I contacted the landlord, he had no idea that there was a venomous snake there...thought is was "a ball python, or some damn thing"). Sadly, this is the fate of many venomous snakes...if not due to withholding of routine care, then the withholding of medical care...because the keeper doesn't have the necessary skills, and (if he even tries) he cannot find a vet to deal with it. At least with nonvenomous snakes, they can get passed around to enough people that eventually some of them get lucky and find good homes

 

[Rakshasanyc]

That is true...but how many of the snakes die prematurely, because the person did not care for them properly (I know, this happens to a lot of reptiles, but perhaps more so with hots)...anytime routine care becomes too much of a chore, or frightening to the keeper, the animals suffer. I did a rescue some years ago, in which a cobra was abandoned in an apartment...the cage was absolutely disgusting, the snake was thin and dehydrated because it was aggressive and the guy was afraid to open the cage to do routine care. (the thing that got me at the time was that when I contacted the landlord, he had no idea that there was a venomous snake there...thought is was "a ball python, or some damn thing").

*sigh* Some people exist solely to serve as a bad example. Dollars to donuts says the idiot had little or no snakekeeping experience of any sort, and decided a cobra would be a bitchin' pet... only to find that gee, my pet wants to kill me and is capable of doing so.

We will have fools with us always, and many of them will be drawn to keeping venomous snakes for the same reason they are drawn to drag racing down city streets, drunken bungee jumping, and other Stupid Human Tricks. I should have included a specific disclaimer in my earlier post stating that the person keeping his first copperhead should have an IQ in triple digits and actually want to treat his hot snake as a living being, not as overcompensation for his underendowment.

In my conversations with a friend of mine who keeps a lot of hots, including cobras, mambas, and a few other Very Toxic Beauties, I've gathered that finding vets who will work with hot herps is difficult to impossible. So if you want to keep hots, you may find yourself dosing your snake with antibiotics or antiparasiticials, removing retained eye caps, etc. If you aren't ready to do this, you may want to think twice about getting a hot.


IIRC, and I've never kept cobras, so I may be talking out my posterior here, not only are cobras fast-moving, quick to strike and potentially lethal -- their husbandry requirements are a bit more exacting than many snakes. So that's yet another reason (as if we needed more reasons) why they make singularly bad First Hots.

 

[hhmoore]

Exactly my point. Over the years, I have had to work inside the mouths of cobras, puff adders, and rattlesnakes. I have force fed babies, given injections, and peeled skin (my first cobras retained shed on their faces for the first year, for some reason). There have been a few dumbasses in this state (NY) that got bitten, and most those bites were met with legislative response (State and local laws) Have I mentioned how much I dislike the rules in this state recently? Unlike many, I obey them, but it has led me to focus on different animals - since most of the ones I liked are now illegal

 

[jamie_herp08]

I have a ton of experience with burmese pythons and blood pythons, and i used to have quite a few watersnakes. What would the best "prep" snake be for a copperhead, are they as aggressive as the watersnakes(freshly wild caught).

 

[hhmoore]

Whether or not the watersnakes were a good primer depends alot on how you were dealing with them. If you were working with them as I outlined above - no hands, treating them as hots - and had no escapes or bites, then it was at least good practice. There is really is no ideal "prep" snake...but working with aggressive species as if they were hots helps alot - practice, practice, practice. I saw this on another forum, I hope it is okay to post the link: http://thereptileroom.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=2113

 

[Vince]

the best prep would be to work with someone who works with them already.