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Beware: Dead Albino Ball Pythons from Rick Crew!

If Adam FAILS to ship to Jesse, I see NO need to know about it, two losers of the trade ripping eachother off, who cares. There are plenty of posts stating why each is a horrible reptile "seller", several different threads on each, so turnabout is fair play. If however say Jesse got ripped off by someone we do not know about....


David Reid
 
There are plenty of posts stating why each is a horrible reptile "seller", several different threads on each, so turnabout is fair play

Good point...

But you know what I meant, right?

Just because someone is themselves dishonest in their dealings, it doesn't really make it acceptable for others to act in that manner towards them, otherwise the entire industry would quickly degenerate.

Terry, for all I know, could be the worst human being to ever live... but if he is going to be honest about a bad dealing, I still appreciate the warning... I'll be skeptical if he has a bad reputation and require a bit more evidence or a bit of backup before I believe them... But I'll appreciate it in the end when I see an ad from the other person and check before I send my money.

It sounds as if there are legitimate complaints about Terry, so another thread on that issue started by someone with direct information wouldn't be out of line... I just disagree with the idea of calling honest and polite posts "abuse" of the board.

I likely crossed lines with Evan, but those were and ARE my feelings about SOME of his behaviors and SOME of his posts... I can get all uppity and bothered and post some pretty juvenile things myself (and have) but he seems to make a habit of it when anyone questions any statement he makes, rather than addressing the questions, he turns around and rubs his reputation in their face and insinuates that his words are true simply because they are his... And they ain't.
 
Evan, I think I have a pretty good idea what you know about this business (or should I say YOUR business as you have refered to it in the past) Why, because you have never let an opportunity pass without telling us how much you know about this business. Its just the kind of comment I have come to expect from you. And believe me, if getting to know as much about this business as you do will turn me into someone like you then I do not want to know that much.

You seem to be of the opinion that is OK to rip off a bad guy, well, I happen to think it is wrong to rip off anybody, and if you do get ripped off you have the right to post your experiences here. I don't care who you are. None of your comments had anything to do with the post that Terry made about Rick. If you have issues with Terry take them up in a thread of their own. If you have something to add to Terry's complaint of Rick then post them here, if not, then shut the heck up.

Seamus, I'd say more like most of the time.

Steve Schindler
 
I know more about what goes on in this business than you could ever begin to know.
You have to be kidding, right? That comes across as VERY arrogant Evan. Is that honestly how you feel about yourself compared to others who post here?
 
Oh OK Seamus, so while you are criticizing my post on the topic you go off to spend several paragraphs insulting me. But your not an ass, no not you. Everything I post on this site, you look for and post an insulting response to. You are a very petty little person Seamus. That and you 100% decided to interpret my post differently than it was intended. I was not 1 upping anyone. Steve does not know anything about Terry Lilley, I do. What I said and what I meant was the same thing "I know more" about this business than Steve will ever know. Not "I know more than Steve will ever know". The fact that you always assume your interpretation of thing is correct is not at all arrogance on your part either. No of course not. Your not a snob on here Seamus, not you. So go ahead and laugh and tell everybody that I did just what you said that I would since I refuse to lie down and take your crap.

You always have something to say even when you know nothing about the topic. I was contributing to the info on this thread while you just stopped by to sling insults at me. Don't softne your insults with compliments either. I do not like being fed garbage. You know nothing about me or my animals. I only speak to topics that I know. I'm happy to admit there are many, many things in this world that I know nothing about. I know about this business and I will voice my knowledge when it is relavant and when I feel it is justified. You Seamus, you just keep following me around on this board and giving me a hard time. Nobody will think you are petty Seamus. I'm sure they won't. Evan Stahl
 
Steve, since you have no use for my opinion and have such a low opinion of me, you can stop coming to me with questions on care and pricing and availabilty of animals. It seems funny if you had a low opinion of my knowledge that you seek it so often. You will just be one more person that does not need to take my time away from my collection. I don't criticize you because I thought you were a good guy. Now I will because you would jump on a sad little bandwagon with Seamus, who jumps on every thread where he has nothing to contribute except to insult me or somebody else.

Anyone who wants to can post anything about anyone on here. That is the concept and I have no issue with that. What my post said from the go and will continue to say is that I have severe credibility issues with Terry Lilley posting anything negative about anyone when in the past 20 years in this business you would be hard pressed to find somebody that has done more people wrong. Credibility, wether you realize it or not, is very important in the really real world.

I was having lunch with a friend today who has been in the herp biz for over 20 years and we talked about this thread and he was revolted that Terry would say anything as well as he personally knows dozens of people in this country and others that Terry has cheated. Corey Sawyer posted here and emailed me info on a lovely job Terry tried to rip him off with an animal that already belonged to Corey and tried to use Corey's pic to sell it to him! Don't any of you realize that?

The reason that you don't see more people coming to jump on Terry on here is the same reason he could post here in the first place. Not enough people are aware what goes on here. The same handful of you read each post. I'll bet most of you have never even heard of Terry prior to this. That is why I jumped on here. To take advantage of an opportunity to both make people aware that he is a bad guy and to say that anyone that he accuses may be a good person as he is not. If Rick is a bad guy as well than it is 2 birds, 1 stone. Instead of attacking me, see it that way.

Seamus, I'm not reading anymore of your trash so save your time.

Evan Stahl
 
Evan,
If you have never done any business with Terry, isnt everything you said about him 3rd. party hearsay ?

Not trying to "pick" on you or anything...just an observation.

I did 1 trade with Terry about 2 years ago, a pair of smooth knob tails for a adult breeding pair or yellow ackies he had, everything went smooth and the animals were as described.

But, the point of this particular thread is about how Terry got ripped off by Rick Crew, not about Terry's character or business practices.
 
Alex, you are using a legal term when we are not in court of law. When dozens and dozens of people tell me that somebody is cheating them, should I just assume that over all these years and all these deals, that every single person is wrong and Terry is right? Even though many of these people are people that I trust and deal with? Even when I have been sent copies of emails and seen the animals? Even when people like Corey Sawyer forward the proof to me? How about the indigo story that I mentioned Alex? Are you aware that the person that refers to was in Grand Rapids Michigan and you may even know them? What does it take for you to find out the sky is falling? Does it need to fall on you or do you belive it when such a multitude of people tell you? Do you realize that the reason that I have never dealt with Terry is that every person that I have ever met that has ever done business with him has only bad things to tell me. When good friends of mine have animals in their house or at shows, sitting right in front of me and Terry is showing people pics of that animal trying to sell them even though they do not belong to him and are not for sale, do you believe Terry?

I have posted hundreds of times on these boards and have never come out of the gate against somebody like this and yet that does not seem to the impact that I desire it to, so simple, Alex, you believe that you were not lucky. Believe that Terry is a good guy. I have only stated facts. As I said way back in this post, you will not see Terry dispute this post as he knows it is true and knows that it would open the door to so many attacks against him by others.

People have been sweet to jump on me misinterpreting what I said and nit picking instead of taking in to account my only purpose for joining this thread. I'm done. I try to save people from bad experiences, but you will have to make your own mistakes to learn I guess. I wish somebody had been around on a forum like this 15 years ago to keep me away from a list of people I could share with you that ripped me off. Good luck to all. I am done with this thread for good. So go ahead and sling petty insults knowing that I won't be back to read them. Evan Stahl
 
Evan, my post was in no way intended to attack or insult you.

The only point I'm trying to make is, if a million people told me that Evan Stahl sold lousy horrible animals and I even saw a thread about it here on the BOI, I wouldnt jump on it and say that Evan "sold lousy horrible animals"...........purely because of the fact that I have never dealt with Evan before.

I would simply just refer them to the thread about Evan and let them decide for themselfs. If they proceeded to go ahead and purchase from Evan and got burnt.....then by all means they should come back to the BOI and tell us all about their experience.

This thread is pure and simple, a thread about Terry getting ripped off by Rick Crew. Regardless if Terry ripped off a million and one people, this thread is not about him. And I can appreciate the fact that you're looking out for fellow herpers, but I just think you went about it wrong.

By the way, I do know who you're talking about in Grand Rapids ! And I do consider myself lucky in the fact that Terry did as he promised with our trade. But that was MY experience with Terry, Nothing more and nothing less.

Once again, Evan......No hard feelings, I'm not trying to insult or attack you. Just my own personal thoughts on this particular thread.
 
"Steve, since you have no use for my opinion and have such a low opinion of me, you can stop coming to me with questions on care and pricing and availabilty of animals. It seems funny if you had a low opinion of my knowledge that you seek it so often. "

I do respect your knowledge of reptiles, and of the business. It is your condescending attitude and your aire of superiority that have caused me to make it a point NOT make any inquiries about the care and pricing and availability of animals. The last time I spoke with you regarding availability and pricing of reptiles was last winter at Lee's prior to the mass importation of the baby ball pythons. You were telling me how you import over 5000 per year and have never lost a single one, and how only a handful of them ever had problems feeding from day one for you. I was considering buying from you but then I saw my own pair locked up and decided to wait for my own to hatch. I don't recall since then ever asking your advice on the care of anything, although, prior to that I probably did discuss care issues with you. But then again, I suppose every thread is a desperate plea from one of us nobodys seeking the knowledege and wisdom of the great Evan Stahl, evan if we don't come right out and beg for it.


the last time I spoke personally with you on any subject was again last year at Lee's when the thread about the Borneo bat eaters was in full swing. You were badmouthing someone on here and when I jokingly asked you at the swap if you had any borneo bat eaters you went of on him again. To be honest, thats when my opinion about you changed. Since then, I have only been to Lees maybe 4 times, and I have always made it a point not to talk to you (other than a possible "hi, how's it goin" but again, isn't that just another situation where I am begging you to impart your wisdom on me and enlighten me with all the deatils of how great you are and everything you have accomplished in your business.) I usually don't even look at your table. I have never responded to any of your ads on this site or KS regarding animals for sale. You simply don't have anything I am interested in. Just a few weeks ago you did make a post in which you offered to sell me some of your leucistic texas rat snakes in a thread I started regarding another advertiser using the term "bug eyed"

"It seems funny if you had a low opinion of my knowledge that you seek it so often. "

last summer, around the time when Lee's was busted, in another thread where you were bragging about all the shows you did in all the different states, I did make an inquiry regarding permits since you obviously know more than anyone else on the planet about such things. That was one post maybe two. You again told me that you have never had any problems obtaining any permits because you know how to do things the right way.

I made a couple of comments in your thread about what people are looking for in a herp show. I said I respected your desire to make improvements on your show, and I do. I told you that I did not think your admission prices were out of line, and I don't. I did ask what 2 zoos you were refering to when you said that of the last dozen or so only 2 had decent reptile selections. I guess you are considering that comming to you for your expertise and knowledge of the business. Of course you couldn't help but self promote yourself in that thread either saying how once the owner of reptile gardens found out who you were he said he would have let you in for free.

"You will just be one more person that does not need to take my time away from my collection."

Or from ripping on other people or pumping yourself up with so much self praise.

"I don't criticize you because I thought you were a good guy."

If I agree with you I am a good guy, if I don't I should be critiscized

"Now I will because you would jump on a sad little bandwagon with Seamus, who jumps on every thread where he has nothing to contribute except to insult me or somebody else."

If you read the thread, I posted here before Seamus did How does that constitute my jumping on his bandwagon. Besides you were the first one to come on this thread with nothing to contribute, and start with the insults. And I am pretty sure I have never called anyone stupid on this forum as you have many times.


To get this straight. I agree with you. You do know more about this business than I do. There are many people who know more about this business than I do and I am not afraid or ashamed to admit that. However, you apparently are. I respect the fact that you have built a nice business for yourself. I have also. I think you have high quaility animals but quite frankly I really don't care about your collection of honduran morphs. I am not into that sort of stuff so they don't impress me. I do think you have a lot to offer people in this business, but what I don't like about you is the way you talk down to everyone who doesn't agree with every word you say or worship the ground you walk on. At one time I would have happily considered doing business with you, I have in fact, but now, I just couldn't bring myself to do it.

I appologize to everyone else on this site for my long post. I made a statement that I did not think Evan's personal feelings about what he heard other people say about Terry Lilly belonged on this site in a post about a deal between terry and a third party. I suggested that if He had a problem with Terry he bring it up in a thrad of his own. Upon reading that post he took it upon himself to insult me like he has done many times to many others. I have spent a good deal of time on this post but to be totally hones I do not think it belongs here. Since I am defending myself however I will post it.

Oh yeah, and one more thing. You will be back to read them, you may not repond but I know you will read them.

Steve Schindler
 
Damn!

Can we cut out the damned bickering between everyone, please?

I have had people suggest that the threads be limited to just the person making the original statement and that person or persons it was about. I didn't think this was a workable solution, and still don't. I felt the power of peer pressure being used via opinions being stated would be helpful to get many of the issues resolved in a fair manner.

I have had people suggest that I limit posts to ONLY facts, and not accept anyone's opinions about the parties involved, nor this issues being exposed. Again, I felt this was not reasonable nor prudent to do, for the same reason stated above.

But when I see stuff like this, I makes me doubt my decisions.

So listen up!

The BOI is NOT going to get so entangled with tortuous rules, regulations, and guidelines that it becomes so ensnared in legalese that it would make a trial attorney feel right at home. I am not going to try to cover every eventuallity with some rule and then sit and ponder every message posted to see if it falls within the rules or guidelines. There are times when I need to be strict about the rules, and other times I need to bear in mind the message being provided and not the vehicle used to disclose the message.

Keep FIRMLY in mind what the majority of the rules of this site are for. They are for the dissemination of as much information as possible about the people being discussed as the topics of the threads AS WELL as those people whom are making claims by beginning or continuing those threads. They are for the establishment of credibility of the information being provided by having the statements show ownership of whom is making the statements. They are for helping to keep the threads from being sidelined and sidetracked into being useless gatherings of ramblings, back biting and useless bickering between every Tom, Dick and Harry on this site that has a difference of opinion with someone else.

I don't CARE if you do not LIKE what someone else says or how they say it. If someone says something in a thread that you disagree with, then state what it is and why you disagree, but THAT IS IT. DO NOT BELITTLE SOMEONE JUST BECAUSE YOU DISAGREE WITH WHAT THEY SAY OR HOW THEY SAY IT.

If the worst bad guy in the universe gets shafted by someone else, and their account is factual about the circumstances, then is this not providing the sort of information the BOI was designed to capture and make public? Is the claims that the person himself has done the same exact thing to anyone else relevant to the issue? If this is true, then either there is an existing thread about this person already on record here or there SHOULD be.

I do not know exactly how much more strongly I am going to have to say what I said above, but I am fully prepared to slice and dice everyone that does not take me seriously right out of here, if necessary, to make my point understood. In the end, my hopes are that only civilized, responsible adults will still remain standing here.

So please bear in mind what the BOI is here for. And think HARD about what it can be brought down to by the bickering such as I see in this thread.

If you believe you can be helpful here, then you are, by all means, welcomed to do so. But if you believe you absolutely must go off tangent in a thread and berate another member here, no matter what the circumstances, you will eventually find yourself having the door to this site slammed shut in your face.
 
After talking to Rich I feel that I have something to say to everyone here but Steve and Seamus.

I say this is my business, not because I own it or rule it but because instead of these people who hide behind their computers like cowards and contribute nothing but negativity, I work very hard to produce animals, display them, I do educational talks at schools for free, I have done many newspaper articles, radio and televison shows and news casts just trying to get people to not burn us on a cross for keeping reptiles. I have pride in the fact that this is what I do. Simple.

Steve threw out a bunch of out of context remarks about me. To anyone who knows me it is funny to call me arrogant since I am about the most self depricating person there is.

In reference to the reptile gardens comment, again being petty and taking it out of context, Steve led you to believe that that was arrogance on my part. He could not be further from the truth. The reason that the manager offered to let us in for free when he found out who we were was simply because, as I stated I was with my friend Bob Ashley, who owns a reptile t shirt company and we were there to show him the shirts and try to get him to buy from Bob for his gift shop. Steve, next time ask before you shoot your mouth off.

About the comment Steve made about me bragging about how many shows that I have been to, that is hilarious again, as anyone who has ever talked to me about it or read any of my many posts on the subject, I hate traveling to shows and have too much work to do. I have very little desire and need to any shows except mine and those hosted by good friends. I have not even been to the breeders expo since it moved to Daytona as it is just too far! I was not bragging about how many that I have been to, in fact, I think it sucks how many I have been to, but regardless, I have a huge amount of experience doing reptile shows. That is a fact, period.

I have decided that I will no longer offer my imput on the BOI. I reserve the right to post on any threads concerning me or if I find a good friend being slandered I may come to their defense. What I will stop doing is sharing my knowledge and experience of all the crooks with you here. Sadly. It is not worth it for me to have to argue and suffer through these attacks for trying to help people. That is all that I have intended to do here. I have gotten over a dozen emails in the past 24 hours, of support, from people in this business who read this forum but do not post on it as they do not want to deal with these petty arguments and attacks. The way people are approaching this board is the exact thing that is destroying this board. You do not have to believe me but when these people do not post info that could be helpful to you because of your behavior, it is time to take a long look in the mirror. The only ones really being hurt here is Rich and the people who honestly come to this board seeking help. That is it for me. Evan Stahl
 
Evan,

You have my word that the petty attacks, arguments, and bickering ARE going to end here.

Eventually those 1 point warnings are going to add up on people and sooner or later they will be faced with the prospect of toning things down, or be gone from this place. There will be NO reprieve when the limit is reached and everyone that reaches it cannot claim that it is unfair or they had no warning. The penalty per infraction is light enough, that those people in a learning curve situation will never have to worry about reaching that limit. Those people engaging in constant minor snipes here and there are in severe jeopardy of it catching up with them sooner or later.

I am asking you to reconsider your position on your future in this forum. Experience is invaluable in what is needed to be done on the BOI. Experience, and those people whom have it, are the only teachers that really matter here.

But whatever you decide to do, thank you for your past involvement here.
 
Hey ummmm Evan

I did not know those things about Terry.
And quite Frankly you edumacated me.
who knows...maybe you saved me a headache from dealing with him.
 
I am asking you to reconsider your position on your future in this forum. Experience is invaluable in what is needed to be done on the BOI. Experience, and those people whom have it, are the only teachers that really matter here.

Yea Evan, you should stay. I appreciate the help you have given me on and off of this forum.

I did not know those things about Terry.
Me either, but now that I do theres no way I will go near him...
 
It is such a shame that this thread has strayed so far off from the subject that was originally posted. It became a sling fest and now it appears no one knows what the point of this thread is. To bring it all back into perspective, it is a post about an individual that has sold sick and dying animals knowingly for years. I for one do not want to be bringing sick animals into our collection. Once someone has been outed as an unscrupulous reptile dealer we should all remember the name and be thankful that someone has stepped up to the plate and spoken out. It isn't always easy speaking out on this board because of the way some of the posters here like to bicker and rant. This board can sometimes become an internet vegamatic. It slices and dices. I'm glad that it has come to my attention that Lilley is also a person to be careful of, but disappointed to see that Rick Crew has been totally forgotten. I do believe that anyone should have the right to post something that they feel is wrong or unjust. After reading many posts on this board I see that Neil Gubitz has many posts against him stating that he is a bad guy, and yet he is allowed to voice his opinion over and over. Why is this Lilley guy any different? Bad guy or not this is the place to come with a complaint, a question or a compliment. After all, this is the BOI.


Thank you webslave....this place is truly a place where one can sometimes be entertained, sometimes find it educational, and always see it for the One of a Kind site that it is.

Gail Thorpe
 
Gail, I assure you that I have not and will not lose your point. You are correct and I am partially at fault for what happened. As much as I did not intend for this thread to go this direction I just wanted to make a point. After the big ruckus with Adam Block saying something derrogotory about Kevin McCurley and every person on this forum jumped on Adam even though they had no imput to the thread. How was this different? I have done business with both Adam and Kevin and had things to say. I doubt anyone else could say that. What I said about Terry was just to give people something to think about as far as what you will believe from whom you hear it. As bad a guy as Rick may be (I really have never dealt with him. He gave me his card at a show and asked me to keep him in mind for selling my production to) Terry is. So who do you believe? Now, after listening to you and others, I think they are both pretty bad people to do business with.

One of the guys made a comment in this thread about how a persons ethics have no weight here. I disagree. All that you have and all that you are in the end is your own moral and ethical code that you chose to follow in this life. I do not and will not judge anyone based on where they live, how much money they have or what they drive. I will judge you based on the ethics and morals that you exhibit.

To Rich, you are trying to do something here that I am very proud of. You are a selfless person to do the work and put up with all of this garbage just because you feel it must be done. You may not be the tallest guy that I have ever met, but I assure you, you are a big man in stature. I will support you in this.

To Al, thanks very much for your kind words. You will always be appreciated as a customer and anything that I can answer for you is my pleasure.

I am sure that I will eat my words and post here again, but I would be lying if I were to say that this thread and so many others will come to mind and make me hesitate before I do.

Evan Stahl
 
I want to appologize to everyone for my part in this fiasco.

To the webslave for making a mockery of his hard work and service.

to the rest of you for bringing what was a serious, legitimate post down to the level it had reached.

And to Evan. I won't be able to hide my personal feelings about you, but I was wrong to bring them out here. I should not have done it in this forum.

Again, my appologies to all and and a thank you to the webslave for taking the hardline stance you did. Hopefull we all have learned something through all this (but sadly, I am sure that some of us have not) and we can all help to contribute positively to this site.

Steve Schindler
 
Hey Evan.... If *I* can stick around and play with my remaining 22 demerit points.... so can you!!.... Don't let a couple of people scare you off this board so you can't help the others that actually want it??.... Heck, I would have been out of here long ago, if I thought that way??.... You're stuck, pal!.... I, for one, am happy to listen to someone who "knows"!.... More people should try listening.... My father always used to say.... "You have two ears and one mouth.... use them in that order, and you'll never have a problem".... I should probably try to follow my own advice sometimes, but.... oh well....

Gail.... I know.... I have a hair-trigger, and it takes me a while to calm down, but.... when everything is said and done.... there is not ONE PERSON that has EVER had a problem with something I sold them, that I haven't made right!.... Bottom Line!!.... There are times when you have to just smack me in the head to wake me up, but, I get there eventually because I KNOW they're right.... I'm not as bad as you might want to think.... no matter what some of them say....

....Neil
 
Crew proof and funny people!!

I do have proof that Rick Crew mailed the snake illegally! I have photos of the box and lable. I am also sening the dead albino to be checked for IBD virus. I have already contacted the police over the issue. As far as some of these other crazy replies I just have to laugh!! I have over 8,000 letters and emails from happy customers over the past 20 years!! I am actually selling my business to build a reptile zoo and I am using many of these letters in the sale. If I have only three unhappy clients than I am one happy guy!! Please keep them coming as I need wall paper for my new office! The internet is FULL of want-a-be reptile breeders and dealers. Just ask any one of them, how long they have been in business, how many reptiles they have produced, how many species were they the first to produce and how many reptiles have they shipped legally? That will give you a good idea as to who they are. Also if they have time to look at all of these stupid messages then they must not be breeding too many reptiles!! Here is the USPS shipping box that contained Rick Crews IBD phase albino ball python!
Sincerely
Terry Lilley :)
 

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