Bad Guy Beware of Panther Company

[jishillencik]

Josh your questions in #56 have either been thoroughly answered already or were scare crow arguments masquerading as questions. every time i've post a screenshot it's just been doubted and used to keep this thread going longer.

I do full acknowledge that we had females from Iwo, who is siblings to your dam's sire, and I believe their line looks quite a bit more like Nosy Be than Ambanja. If you share the same concern for maintaining the looks of specific locales, I would advise you and others to avoid them in your Ambanja breeding programs.

And if it feels like I am beating a dead horse it is because YOU ARE MAKING ME. Provide evidence for your claims. Post up or shut up.

 

[Chris Kennard]

No but your ignorance of the boi is compelling as if you haven't read it in its entirety. Obviously I answered your questions stating yo why the screen shots were posted. Please read whole boi before making remarks with no barring at all to any of this thanks again

I'd have to be a speed reader with lots of time to read the "whole boi". Let's just concentrate on this thread. First of all, I don't remember agreeing or disagreeing with you or anyone else's thoughts here. I've read it all. Right or wrong, if someone posts accusations like the ones I asked proof for, they should be readily provided. Otherwise, it's useless heresay. And for the record, you answered squat and I don't recall asking you any questions. I'm pretty sure those I asked are old enough to answer for themselves. One already did, finally, and I appreciate that. Even though he blasphemous.

 

[james200111]

If you haven't read the whole boi what's your point here besides trolling on people's opinions? Like I said you have no barring here nor any room to talk and comment you've made has not done anything but provide ignorance of the boi and it's entirety. Please read whole thing and base judgments from their thanks again for wasting people's time

 

[Pasodama]

Personally, I believe that Panther Co. did make a mistake, or two, and should probably make some changes in the matter of breeding, organization, etc. (such as taking the proper time/steps, to prove something out, prior to making 100% lineage/locale claims, - putting in place a fool proof system to not allow a mix up, or misplacement, of individuals, - etc.). Also IMHO, Josh has made a couple/few errors in judgement.
Although I am sure that Panther Co./Josh is not the only one to have made errors (these or otherwise).

That said, I have noticed (yes, along with screenshots and the rest) what appears to be some speculation that was taken, and run with, as though fact (without 100% concrete proof).

I must say that this thread sure seems to have taken a "lynch mob" turn/air. Even "attacking" those who are not "sheeple". Sad. This takes away from an intended message, and can give less credence to the "messengers", in this BOI thread.

 

[Panther Company]

Josh, I'll say it again:

I don't refute anything in the screenshots.

I sold Shauna a male. It was supposed to be the biggest male from a clutch between Cyclone and a female sired by Grimbold. Her expressed goal was to get an Ambanja that would show a lot of blue.

That male turned out to look much different than Shauna, Ed Kammer, or I would have expected -- which I admitted without hesitation. This led us to question the female dam that we bred to Cyclone to produce the male. It is 100% true that we did not get that female directly from Kammerflage, nor two others identified as Grimbold when sold to us -- though we have gotten MANY others directly from them. I couldn't come up with the "paper trail" that would prove that the dam of the boy we sold Shauna was REALLY from Kammerflage, and really sired by Grimbold, without a doubt, so we offered a full refund and gave her time to think about it. At this time, our belief was still that she had received an Ambanja sired by Cylone, but from a dam with lineaged different than we'd told her.

We issued her a full refund, including shipping, and got the animal back.

After getting him back, we eventually realized he wasn't sired by Cyclone at all (!) He was an alpha male that had been separated from a clutch of F1 Nosy Faly, and put into a alpha/holdback cage that had recently been inhabited by another Cyclone male.

A month after receiving Shauna's boy back, I posted pictures of him on Facebook, with the corrected "F1 Nosy Faly" lineage. I was contacted by several people that were eager to purchase him, and I fully disclosed that he was F1, from an unproven dam, and we were judging his purity based on his appearance (as is in the screenshots).

Lam purchased him. Stupidly, I did not disclose that it was the same male Shauna had purchased, and how we had eventually figured out which pairing he was from. Anyway, Lam was quite pleased with the animal based on the pictures and then his actual appearance once he received the chameleon, but about a week later, when he posted him online and it was identified as the male we'd bought back from Shauna, he asked for a refund. A full and prompt refund was given, and now we have the male in our possession again.

 

[Chris Kennard]

If you haven't read the whole boi what's your point here besides trolling on people's opinions? Like I said you have no barring here nor any room to talk and comment you've made has not done anything but provide ignorance of the boi and it's entirety. Please read whole thing and base judgments from their thanks again for wasting people's time

Again, I don't have time to read the whole "boi". Get it braincell? I did however read this whole thread. Please explain in detail how I am "trolling on people's opinions". I have not once entertained anyone's opinions regarding who is right or wrong. Sorry if I provided ignorance. Please provide proof of such. Thanks in advance.

 

[jishillencik]

I'd have to be a speed reader with lots of time to read the "whole boi". Let's just concentrate on this thread. First of all, I don't remember agreeing or disagreeing with you or anyone else's thoughts here. I've read it all. Right or wrong, if someone posts accusations like the ones I asked proof for, they should be readily provided. Otherwise, it's useless heresay. And for the record, you answered squat and I don't recall asking you any questions. I'm pretty sure those I asked are old enough to answer for themselves. One already did, finally, and I appreciate that. Even though he blasphemous.

I encourage you to read through the whole thing including the evidence. There are plenty of inconsistencies in Panther Company's defense to pick apart (opinion)

 

[jishillencik]

Josh, I'll say it again:

I don't refute anything in the screenshots.

I sold Shauna a male. It was supposed to be the biggest male from a clutch between Cyclone and a female sired by Grimbold. Her expressed goal was to get an Ambanja that would show a lot of blue.

That male turned out to look much different than Shauna, Ed Kammer, or I would have expected -- which I admitted without hesitation. This led us to question the female dam that we bred to Cyclone to produce the male. It is 100% true that we did not get that female directly from Kammerflage, nor two others identified as Grimbold when sold to us -- though we have gotten MANY others directly from them. I couldn't come up with the "paper trail" that would prove that the dam of the boy we sold Shauna was REALLY from Kammerflage, and really sired by Grimbold, without a doubt, so we offered a full refund and gave her time to think about it. At this time, our belief was still that she had received an Ambanja sired by Cylone, but from a dam with lineaged different than we'd told her.

We issued her a full refund, including shipping, and got the animal back.

After getting him back, we eventually realized he wasn't sired by Cyclone at all (!) He was an alpha male that had been separated from a clutch of F1 Nosy Faly, and put into a alpha/holdback cage that had recently been inhabited by another Cyclone male.

A month after receiving Shauna's boy back, I posted pictures of him on Facebook, with the corrected "F1 Nosy Faly" lineage. I was contacted by several people that were eager to purchase him, and I fully disclosed that he was F1, from an unproven dam, and we were judging his purity based on his appearance (as is in the screenshots).

Lam purchased him. Stupidly, I did not disclose that it was the same male Shauna had purchased, and how we had eventually figured out which pairing he was from. Anyway, Lam was quite pleased with the animal based on the pictures and then his actual appearance once he received the chameleon, but about a week later, when he posted him online and it was identified as the male we'd bought back from Shauna, he asked for a refund. A full and prompt refund was given, and now we have the male in our possession again.

You sold me a male as well that really was from the "Grimbold" female #2. Surely he was not the only offspring from that clutch to be sold from your facility. Of course I also did provide sufficient evidence in losts #21-22 to show that you falsely advertised the male that I purchased as well so who really knows.

Provide evidence that you attempted to contact the other customers and notify them of your doubts and lack of a traceable lineage on the animals they purchased.

Post up or shut up.

 

[Pasodama]

If you haven't read the whole boi what's your point here besides trolling on people's opinions? Like I said you have no barring here nor any room to talk and comment you've made has not done anything but provide ignorance of the boi and it's entirety. Please read whole thing and base judgments from their thanks again for wasting people's time

This BOI thread is not the entire BOI.
It really would be quite the feat to read the entire BOI.

 

[james200111]

Again, I don't have time to read the whole "boi". Get it braincell? I did however read this whole thread. Please explain in detail how I am "trolling on people's opinions". I have not once entertained anyone's opinions regarding who is right or wrong. Sorry if I provided ignorance. Please provide proof of such. Thanks in advance.

Proof is as Pasadena stated your here for baseless reasoning and if you don't know what the word ignorance means look it up because you have showed it not knowing any of the story if you would have read the boi in its entirety then you would have known what the screen shots were posted for but no you asked baseless questions because you didn't read it. In my honest opinion if you don't have the time of day to read the boi then why put your two cents in and sound ignorant of a subject. You should either read boi or go on your way your posts give no barring to the boi and are baseless babysitting ignorant posts that have nothing to do with it have a good day and go troll another boi.

 

[Chris Kennard]

I encourage you to read through the whole thing including the evidence. There are plenty of inconsistencies in Panther Company's defense to pick apart (opinion)

I did. Someone posted accusations that they posed as a girl with a fake account. I asked for proof. You guys can call me ignorant, troll, whatever. I asked for proof. None was provided. Smoke and mirrors since. Posts like that stand to weaken your case, not help it. Get it?

 

[Panther Company]

You sold me a male as well that really was from the "Grimbold" female #2. Surely he was not the only offspring from that clutch to be sold from your facility. Of course I also did provide sufficient evidence in losts #21-22 to show that you falsely advertised the male that I purchased as well so who really knows.

Yes. I have fully acknowledged this several times, and don't refute it. The Cyclone x
Grimbold" pairing that the male you purchased came from is from a dam whos background cannot be documented. And again, you were given a full refund well over a month ago on that basis, and the chameleon you returned to us is doing just great, and looking very much like a pure Ambanja should.

I'm 100% certain that you have no evidence that anyone else was sold chameleons from that pairing and hasn't been offered a refund. If you have any evidence whatsoever to the contrary, beyond conjecture, I encourage you to post it.

 

[jishillencik]

To those just joining an entire read through is not necessary. Panther Company does not refute any screenshot so you can breeze through them at your liesure. Posts 1-22 contain the base evidence the rest is supporting evidence up until post numbers 177-198; those are a must read. Panther Company does not refute the screenshots here, so I'm sure they should have no trouble providing evidence that they indeed attempted to contact other customers that did not catch them in their lies (opinion).

 

[choppers1]

My purpose in commenting here is not to pile on the Panther Company, even though I will state having read this in its entirety, that I agree with the relevance of this BOI. My hope for Josh and Vincent is that this experience will be a catalyst for them to make the changes required to be a trusted chameleon breeder in our community.

As the breeder of Grimbold (our well known F5 Ambanja), we were first alerted to this issue by the post Shauna Garcia made on Chameleons Gone Wild’s Facebook group. She shared a few pictures of her “Grimbold x Cyclone” male, sold to her by The Panther Company asking for comments from others. As the breeder of Grimbold I was surprised by how he looked as I saw no Grimbold influence at all. As I witnessed the controversy brewing over an offspring touted as being partly from Kammerflage Kreations, I asked for more information about the pairing. It turned out that the females who allegedly were of Grimbold decent, were purchased by the Panther Company from someone other than us. Since then the Panther Company has expressed doubt regarding the true origin of these females, which leads me to my main reason for posting.

There is a large and rather painful lesson to be learned from what has been revealed in this BOI and I truly hope that it will do more than bring shame to two people. So while my comments are directed at Josh and Vincent, I hope they will be a helpful reminder to other panther chameleon breeders and those aspiring to be breeders. The responsibility rests with the breeder to prove each and every new line out. The habit of not proving lines and trusting unknown females, has unfortunately become a common practice in the panther chameleon world. Since you can tell nothing about the females’ lineage or locale by looking at them, it is critical that “unknown” females are proven before their offspring are labeled as anything other than “unknown” or at least ”½ unknown”. The marketing of these offspring as Grimbold (and also as pure Ambanja) without raising enough males to an age where this could be proven, was at best irresponsible. It is a short cut that no breeder should make who wants to establish and keep an excellent reputation. In my opinion, you must consider the cost of your actions as a breeder in how you develop your lines and promote the offspring you produce. If the truth had not come out, not only would several breeding colonies have been compromised, but the reputation of our bloodline could have been tarnished as well. To me, a “Buy Back” policy is not the answer to this problem but a symptom of a problem.

Like ed stated- it's not about the refund.

 

[Panther Company]

Josh, not refuting a screenshot is quite different than making an accusation and not providing any evidence. Rob accussed me of creating a fake person that posted on Facebook, drawing attention to this BOI in a group I'm not even in. I personally believe it was Rob or someone else from the "Chameleons Gold Wild" group who created the priofile thinking they'd drive more attention to this BOI -- which wouldn't be the first fake profile created this week to do that ("Girn Blanston" was at least one).

 

[jishillencik]

Josh, not refuting a screenshot is quite different than making an accusation and not providing any evidence. Rob accussed me of creating a fake person that posted on Facebook, drawing attention to this BOI in a group I'm not even in. I personally believe it was Rob or someone else from the "Chameleons Gold Wild" group who created the priofile thinking they'd drive more attention to this BOI -- which wouldn't be the first fake profile created this week to do that ("Girn Blanston" was at least one).

in case you missed it

post up or shut up

 

[jishillencik]

Like ed stated- it's not about the refund.

enough said

 

[Panther Company]

So you're using pictures to accuse me of not ending emails?

But, I know there's no series of screenshots I could show you that would convince you it's an exhaustive list of every customer that needed to be notified -- it'd just be fodder for you to continue trying to tell your broken narrative. I'm saying, as I've said, that I know it'd be futile and I'm not wasting my time, since there's no evidence to support your accusation in the first place.

 

[Lucille]

So you're using pictures to accuse me of not ending emails?

But, I know there's no series of screenshots I could show you that would convince you it's an exhaustive list of every customer that needed to be notified -- it'd just be fodder for you to continue trying to tell your broken narrative. I'm saying, as I've said, that I know it'd be futile and I'm not wasting my time, since there's no evidence to support your accusation in the first place.

It is my opinion that posting lists of customers might be seen by them as an invasion of their privacy.

 

[jishillencik]

If you have emails, I would love to see them. I do not expect you to betray the confidence of the third party. Simply black out the name but leave the content with a time stamp so we can all see an attempt was indeed made.

Thanks

Same can be done with the mass email if he knows how to use Paint on his computer