Bad Guy BHB reptiles "het" didn't prove out, won't fix it

[Mister Internet]

To the OP: BHB didn't owe you anything, IMO, and it was petulant and inappropriate to aproach them. If your friend sold you a snake he got from BHB that turned out not to be correct, YOUR FRIEND owes you, not BHB. If your friend wants to, in turn, solicit BHB for restitution, then so be it. You never gave any money to BHB, not sure why you are expecting any.

That being said, he should follow through on what he said he'd do. Not that anyone reading this thread thinks it's appropriate or warranted in this situation. I think he's being a stand up guy for even listening to your whining in the first place, but that's just me. I'd have told you to go talk to your friend who sold you the snake. The fact that he talked to you AND offered to make it right when there's no reasonable way to infer he was under any obligation to do so, makes him worth doing business with in my book. As long as I didn't need it quickly lol.

Best of luck.

 

[dturner100]

Busy with business, evidently.

Well ... some business.

Brian has been asked to come to the BOI to assist in a reference at least once in the past that I know of and showed up pretty fast.

Also I'd think making right on his word would be the most important business even if it's just for the little guy.

 

[KelliH]

To the OP: BHB didn't owe you anything, IMO, and it was petulant and inappropriate to aproach them. If your friend sold you a snake he got from BHB that turned out not to be correct, YOUR FRIEND owes you, not BHB. If your friend wants to, in turn, solicit BHB for restitution, then so be it. You never gave any money to BHB, not sure why you are expecting any.

That being said, he should follow through on what he said he'd do. Not that anyone reading this thread thinks it's appropriate or warranted in this situation. I think he's being a stand up guy for even listening to your whining in the first place, but that's just me. I'd have told you to go talk to your friend who sold you the snake. The fact that he talked to you AND offered to make it right when there's no reasonable way to infer he was under any obligation to do so, makes him worth doing business with in my book. As long as I didn't need it quickly lol.

Best of luck.

Yep yep, as always, your post is right on target Mr. I.

 

[Angel Rojas]

Because the OP didn't buy from Brian, I would say he has no claim against Brian, but because Brian made an agreement, he should honor it in a timely manner. Period.

I totally disagree with the first part of your statement, the OP has every right to make a claim on the animal. I believe that it was stated before that Brian knew that the snake was being purchased for the OP. That's like saying if someone went to the store and bought a laptop for you, that you would have no right to claim the warranty or refund if the laptop failed to work properly. Given the low chances of producing a visual animal from hets and with the low egg count that balls render, I do think that the OP might have jumped the gun a little by claiming a dud het. But it has been proven that Brain has said himself that he will make right on the animal, but has failed to do so. If I ever were to get into balls I would have no problem buying from either Brian or the OP. But when it would come to BHB, I would make sure that everything was on the up and up, because their customer service is lacking a bit.

 

[David Bellis]

After getting away from the computer a few hours I need to apologize for my earlier behavior and posts. I'm sorry for taking the potshots at the mods and site and just being a bit of a jackass really. This is going to be a long post but I want to give a little background.

This is a sore spot for me as I've been dealing with this headache for well over a year now. From start to finish this entire transaction has been nothing but awful. Buying the snake through Chris was just beyond idiotic, Chris and I discussed earlier today that it was probably the worst $250 he's ever saved since his name is involved in this nonsense.

Like lots of people I'm always trying to create new morphs and move older stuff out to make room for holdbacks. When I sold the Spider to Cliff, much like buying him through Chris, I never would have guessed in a million years that there would be any genetic questions that would arise. When none of the eggs hit I reassured Cliff numerous times that the snake came from BHB, so I was *sure* it was a het and that big breeders probably aren't even producing normal Spiders. When Cliff had eggs incubating I couldn't wait for him to hatch out a Hypo or a Honeybee so he would be proven and done with. No such luck there either. So now not only am I out the clutches that didn't prove, Cliff is as well. It's an absolute mess and I'm right in the middle of it. I lost money on the male, didn't get anything from the babies, and now I've got a buyer who is out clutches as well.

So I email Brian and talk on the phone and Brian seems like a good guy. I still think Brian *is* a good guy but has *TERRIBLE* customer service. We talk about the possibility of it being a het even with that many eggs. We talk about the possibility of it being moved at a show, put back int he wrong box, dumb employee etc. We agree on everything and then communication just stops.

I get it. The guy is busy. Super busy. But two months??? You can't send an email or make a phone call for 60 days? Really?

Months and months of telling me you'll do something and then doing nothing. I just got fed up. These are my last email exchanges with Brian.

October 20

Hey Brian. Just wondering if you got that inventory list done. Let me know. Thanks. - David

October 22

So sorry, I have had a tough week.lol I am working on the last parts of te list today and should have it finished by tomorrow. Sorry for the delay! Talk soon, Brian

October 27

It happens to all of us. Any news? - David

November 2

When we first talked about doing 2010 babies you said it would be July or August before we could make a deal. I have stuff that breeds late so I thought if I got a good feeder I'd have the chance of getting him up to size. We're obviously into November now and here I am following up yet another unanswered email from a week ago.

My patience can only go so far Brian. Can you please get me a list of available animals so we can put this behind us? Please. - David

November 9

Brian I was on your website and saw you have a male Enchi Bee available. Would you be willing to send me him to complete our deal? Let me know, thanks. - David

November 12

And now three more weeks have passed since you said you should have the list "finished by tomorrow". Not to mention no response to my last three emails, but I should be used to that by now. I'm absolutely disgusted with the way you have treated me in this situation and can't believe you run a business this way. If I sold someone a het that *didn't prove out* I would bend over backwards to make it right for them. You act like I'm bothering you. I don't know what else to say to you as nothing seems to make any difference and you never follow through with anything you say you're going to do anyway. - David

So I decided I'd make it public. I knew what was going to happen and I was dreading make the post honestly. I knew it would ruin any chances of getting an animal but I had given up anyway. I felt Brian should be accountable for following through with what you tell someone.

I really just didn't expect the amount of people questioning me rather than saying "Wow I can't believe he really told you he'd do something and has ignored you for months, Brian what do you have to say?". I was already irritated, a little defensive and then I sat here reading too many posts.

So I got a little worked up and the results are here for everyone to see forever. I'm not entirely crazy, just a little excitable at times.

 

[KelliH]

I do understand your frustration. I would be frustrated too. I don't even know Brian but I would bet that he will stand by his word. Like what has been stated prior by myself and others, he told you he would compensate you. Therefore he should.

 

[Angel Rojas]

After getting away from the computer a few hours I need to apologize for my earlier behavior and posts. I'm sorry for taking the potshots at the mods and site and just being a bit of a jackass really. This is going to be a long post but I want to give a little background.

This is a sore spot for me as I've been dealing with this headache for well over a year now. From start to finish this entire transaction has been nothing but awful. Buying the snake through Chris was just beyond idiotic, Chris and I discussed earlier today that it was probably the worst $250 he's ever saved since his name is involved in this nonsense.

Like lots of people I'm always trying to create new morphs and move older stuff out to make room for holdbacks. When I sold the Spider to Cliff, much like buying him through Chris, I never would have guessed in a million years that there would be any genetic questions that would arise. When none of the eggs hit I reassured Cliff numerous times that the snake came from BHB, so I was *sure* it was a het and that big breeders probably aren't even producing normal Spiders. When Cliff had eggs incubating I couldn't wait for him to hatch out a Hypo or a Honeybee so he would be proven and done with. No such luck there either. So now not only am I out the clutches that didn't prove, Cliff is as well. It's an absolute mess and I'm right in the middle of it. I lost money on the male, didn't get anything from the babies, and now I've got a buyer who is out clutches as well.

So I email Brian and talk on the phone and Brian seems like a good guy. I still think Brian *is* a good guy but has *TERRIBLE* customer service. We talk about the possibility of it being a het even with that many eggs. We talk about the possibility of it being moved at a show, put back int he wrong box, dumb employee etc. We agree on everything and then communication just stops.

I get it. The guy is busy. Super busy. But two months??? You can't send an email or make a phone call for 60 days? Really?

Months and months of telling me you'll do something and then doing nothing. I just got fed up. These are my last email exchanges with Brian.

October 20


October 22


October 27


November 2


November 9


November 12


So I decided I'd make it public. I knew what was going to happen and I was dreading make the post honestly. I knew it would ruin any chances of getting an animal but I had given up anyway. I felt Brian should be accountable for following through with what you tell someone.

I really just didn't expect the amount of people questioning me rather than saying "Wow I can't believe he really told you he'd do something and has ignored you for months, Brian what do you have to say?". I was already irritated, a little defensive and then I sat here reading too many posts.

So I got a little worked up and the results are here for everyone to see forever. I'm not entirely crazy, just a little excitable at times.

Very well put. I can understand when people get a little excitable sometimes, but that's what I call passion. When you're passionate about something, sometimes those feelings get in the way.

 

[Paul Kent]

So I email Brian and talk on the phone and Brian seems like a good guy. I still think Brian *is* a good guy but has *TERRIBLE* customer service.

So I got a little worked up and the results are here for everyone to see forever. I'm not entirely crazy, just a little excitable at times.

Now thats real, reasonable honesty

 

[rcpreis3]

To the OP: BHB didn't owe you anything, IMO, and it was petulant and inappropriate to aproach them. If your friend sold you a snake he got from BHB that turned out not to be correct, YOUR FRIEND owes you, not BHB. If your friend wants to, in turn, solicit BHB for restitution, then so be it. You never gave any money to BHB, not sure why you are expecting any.

That being said, he should follow through on what he said he'd do. Not that anyone reading this thread thinks it's appropriate or warranted in this situation. I think he's being a stand up guy for even listening to your whining in the first place, but that's just me. I'd have told you to go talk to your friend who sold you the snake. The fact that he talked to you AND offered to make it right when there's no reasonable way to infer he was under any obligation to do so, makes him worth doing business with in my book. As long as I didn't need it quickly lol.

Best of luck.

Ok so if I sold a male het clown/axanthic for $3000 to a neighbor of urs for u, so u can save on shipping by combining orders, knowing that this is the deal, and then u breed it to compatiable females and get no visuals what-so-ever, I dont owe u jack squat?

Is that what ur saying?

 

[rcpreis3]

Good job David I'm glad u came around and apologized. I accept ur apology, and appreciate ur humble enough to realize u were in the wrong in some of ur posts. Now with that behind us, have u attempted to contact Brian since this post was made? Or has he attempted to contact u?

 

[luvatfirstrosy]

Okay, having read 13 pages of responses to this issue, I don't know that I really have an opinion on this. I do understand David feeling that if the snake's genetics were guaranteed through Brian he should go to Brian and maybe not the person he bought the snake from. Now should David have maybe talked to the person he bought the snake from...probably, but at the beginning of this thread he provided all of his evidence to back what he was requesting. It appears to me (and some others) that all David wanting really is for Brian to keep his word.

Now, that being said, Brian does own a very large company. He's ultimately responsible for everything that happens with this company. Perhaps it would have been better customer service if he assigned one of his employees to resolve the situation, but it does say something that David was able to talk to Brian. I don't call a big company and expect to speak with the head cheese every time.

On the topic of David feeling defensive. He probably, well okay didn't at times, express himself in the most endearing manner, I do understand his feelings of defensiveness. I can imagine that it would be very stressful to decide to bring something to the BOI that you know is going to cause some conflict. Conflict is stressful, it doesn't excuse David's decision to make some statements were not polite and insulting, but maybe it does explain his demeanor a little more. Trying to work through something in private is stressful enough but bringing it to the public does crank up the heat.

Whatever deal that Brian and David had come to should be honored. Should the snake be returned to Brian? I think it should if any compensation is going to be given. I know I don't expect to get an exchange without the original product. But if returning the snake isn't in the deal then it really isn't up to anyone else but Brian and David what the agreement is.

Like so many other threads I have read on here it is unfortunate circumstances that have obviously brought the situation to this point. Brian could apologize for the length of time that it has taken to get to the final resolution have it all done and over with. David could maybe apologize for some misdirected words of hostility. Haven't we all said something we were sorry about later. This is a public forum and people are entitled to their own opinions, and will state them because that's what this is here for right? To help get to a resolution?

It's a tool to be used as last resort and from the sounds of the beginning of this tread David felt this was his last option. I only want to make one more point here and then I'm going to be done (I promise) name calling by anyone really isn't acceptable. We're all adults and we should conduct ourselves as such considering the fact that we are all trying to conduct business and preserve a hobby that we all love.

The original problem here was that David would like Brian to follow through with a deal that they come to on a snake that David felt was misrepresented. So really the only problem here whether or not David and Brian can start to communicate again and get this worked out. While Brian is very busy, what I can tell from his podcasts and his website and just from some of the information provided here is that it sounds like he does take customer service seriously. Remember, before they were big companies they were little companies too. David doesn't seem to expect more than what was agreed upon and I don't think that's asking too much. If my insurance company says they will reimburse me for something, I do expect them to keep their word and if someone I'm doing with business with says they do something I expect the same. So, in closing maybe we can all cut back on the judgements and name calling, focus on the facts that are presented and if we are playing jury here, I don't think anyone is guilty really. Sounds more like unmet expectations and frustration from feeling lost in the shuffle. I do hope this works out in a positive way as it's sad to see so much stress and unhappiness, I like reading the happy BOI's much better...I already know there's a happy ending.

 

[nephrurus]

Its a suck situation all around, I've known David and Chris in the past and I've spoken with Brian a few times in person so I felt obligated to read 14 pages of this stuff. I wished to address one inaccuracy.

Dennis, There is a Pastel Soul Sucker for sale that disagrees with you

Brian doesn't advertise here by the way.

I really don't have to say anything (Just look at the Snake).
If you are interested, send me an email [email protected]


2010 Pastel Soul Sucker(F) - $25,000 each


Check out www.bhbreptiles.com for more animals.

Email us if you don’t see what you are looking for, we have so much more.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Dennis, There is a Pastel Soul Sucker for sale that disagrees with you

I think you know what was meant within the context of David's post and suggestions made by him. Brian isn't a contributing member of this site. Hasn't paid for advertisement on this site. Has never supported this site. The account is less than a month old. Not that it would matter either way. He would subject to the same as anyone else here.

I guess my ads don't generate enough money to warrant even asking Brian for a response. Oh wait that's right, he's a big breeder he was right before I made the post.

It was put forth as that it would and that is absolutely false. I think the majority of the posters within this thread that have shown sympathy to David's position is proof of such.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

I think you know what was meant within the context of David's post and suggestions made by him. Brian isn't a contributing member of this site. Hasn't paid for advertisement on this site. Has never supported this site. The account is less than a month old. Not that it would matter either way. He would subject to the same as anyone else here. It was put forth as that it would and that is absolutely false. I think the majority of the posters within this thread that have shown sympathy to David's position is proof of such.

And I did miss that he recently started posting in the classifieds. That said, out of the two, David is more of a contributing member to this site. The logic behind the post is beyond me. Considering we routinely ban paying members here for violating the rules. Several are on suspension now that have been on the high-end of the contributing member options here. It didn't protect them. It never has on this site.

 

[Casey Hulse]

So I got a little worked up and the results are here for everyone to see forever. I'm not entirely crazy, just a little excitable at times.

I think most of us understand where you are coming from, I know I have been stung by hets (thanx David VanHouten) and you miss out on so much more than just the $$ when they don't prove out, I know how you feel. Thanx for the last post. I do think Brian is honest and will honor his agreement with you...Better late than never? eh??

 

[bullies&balls]

I've known and delt with Brian for several years, before he was into the BP and still mostly a colubrid guy. One thing I know that was going on as well at the end of Oct-1week Nov was Brian's sons B-day. His boy and mine were born the same day and both ended up with the same name. Brian is a stand-up guy and if you took a moment to look at everyting that was written in this thread it speaks volumes to this. He is going to honor the genetics of a snake that was NEVER paired with a VISUAL. He is going to give credit to loss of time and offspring. Yes, I agree he is at fault to a point with gettting in touch with you, but this is some mad time for him atm. Try to imagine all of the pairings BHB are doing at this TIME.

 

[annmikeal]

I dont know Brian personally, but from what I have seen at shows and on his site, he seems to be a good guy. The fact that people are saying that they are out 13 eggs and how none of them proved out, you still made money on the spiders and the normals... You didnt get what you wanted, but you did get babies, and you did make money??? That is what is confusing me

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

Unfortunately for Brian he assumed liability and entered into an agreement to rectify this situation.I feel he should have thought about that before making a decision. I personally wouldn't have given anything. I have always thought hets of any kind were a gamble.And sometimes when you gamble you lose.I also feel hets are the cheapo way to get into projects.Everyone wants a huge guaranteed return on a little investment(relatively speaking). How does everyone know the females are actually 100% hets if they have never been proven? Its a gamble,suck it up and move on. Even in a court of law ,recognizing Brian entered into an agreement.He has the legal right to change his mind.If the judge were to feel that he had no liability in the first place or your amount was unreasonable you would lose. I know everyone feels friends and family can't betray you but there is no real proof that your male came from brian and you would have to prove that. Not every investment yields areturn and if you sold the snake you have been compensated already.Furthermore, the value depreciates.To me this whole thing just seems a little rediculous.

 

[Mister Internet]

Ok so if I sold a male het clown/axanthic for $3000 to a neighbor of urs for u, so u can save on shipping by combining orders, knowing that this is the deal, and then u breed it to compatiable females and get no visuals what-so-ever, I dont owe u jack squat?

Is that what ur saying?

I actually have no idea what you just said.

What I AM saying is that when I buy something from a retailer, in an industry where there is no implied or actual multi-buyer or lifetime "warranty", then I am responsible for the representation of said item when it leaves my possession... ESPECIALLY if I've taken money for it!

Think of it this way... I buy an ingot of 10 troy ounces of 24K gold for investment purposes from a well-respected, nationally-recognized retailer. I don't personally know enough about gold to tell a 24K ingot from an 18K ingot, so I take the retailer's word on it, as I should. Now, let's say I decide I need money worse than gold two years later, and I sell it to my friend... when I sell it, I tell him "hey, this is 10 troy ounces of 24 carat gold". I HAVE NOW BECOME THE SELLER, simple as that. I have represented a product, and taken money for it... what that product IS or IS NOT, at that point, is my responsibility to my friend to insure. If my friend goes and gets it checked out and finds out it's only 18 carat gold, he doesn't get to go whine to the original retailer. He didn't buy it from the retailer, the product was not represented to him by the retailer, and the retailer doesn't know my friend from Adam, and SHOULD protect himself by dealing only with me, his original customer.

If my friend has a problem with the gold ingot, he brings it back to ME, the ONLY PERSON ON EARTH that has ever told him it's "24 carat gold". When I refund my friend, *I* go to the original retailer and tell him we've got a problem.

So... you really think, in the above scenario, that my friend has any right to say anything to the original retailer? I don't think any reasonable person would say that they do. Unless this snake was sold with a 5 year/50,000 mile warranty, I don't think for one second the OP had any right bothering BHB about this. He should have gotten his refund from his "friend"... some friend, if he won't step in and make this right for David during all this time...

 

[Mister Internet]

I dont know Brian personally, but from what I have seen at shows and on his site, he seems to be a good guy. The fact that people are saying that they are out 13 eggs and how none of them proved out, you still made money on the spiders and the normals... You didnt get what you wanted, but you did get babies, and you did make money??? That is what is confusing me

In fairness to the OP, that's not the point. If he didn't receive what he purchased, he absolutely deserves a refund, regardless if he was able to "salvage" the situation to a degree.

He just complained to the wrong person for his refund... granted, that person out of the goodness of their heart agreed to do something for him, and NOW SHOULD. But it should have been his "friend" giving him the refund all along.