Bad Guy BHB reptiles "het" didn't prove out, won't fix it

[Snake4me2]

typo 4600 sq ft house lol 600 my cardboard box is nice tho.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

So lets realistically view the scenario that has played out.

David’s order of the Spider ‘het. Hypo’ male was purchased indirectly, yet directly from Brian. Brian was well aware of that. He had acknowledged that the animal was to be purchased for David, yet put into Chris’ order to get a larger discount, as stated in Chris’ post.



After receiving the animal, growing it up, and breeding it out; no Spider het Hypo’s. David acknowledges that here…


David contacts Brian about this problem, and Brian acknowledges it as an actual problem. Cliff then hatches the animals produced by the animal in question, and yet, still no Hypo’s.



David contacts Brian, and Brian really feels there is a problem with the het. male. Brian again acknowledges that something is possibly wrong and that the het in question may possibly not be a het. after all.



Brian agrees for compensation. Compensation is not provided and contact is almost lost entirely with Brian, as he is not replying or calling back. Time goes by, and after the jist of it, David gets sick of the wait and being left hanging, and makes this post.

After making the post, and notifying Brian, it appears as though Brian didn’t have ‘new information, but was rather irked by the BOI post and refused compensation after. Not exactly respectable. Brian was the one leaving David sitting, not knowing what is coming towards compensation. It’s a problem he caused, not David.

Many possibilities were brought up about how the females are not true hets., or how the two that Cliff used could have retained sperm. Which is the more probable scenario? The male het. not being het, the females not being het, or bad odds on all 4 females? Especially if Brian was willing to compensate, vs. requesting more breedings be done?

I’ve seen others bring up that David deserves nothing more than a 2010 male Spider het Hypo. That leaves David out, what, $1200 that he originally invested into that Spider 'het' male?

None of this is for us to judge. What was shed to light was compensation was offered, and after the BOI thread created; it was seemingly retracted. Whether the animal was het or not is not for us to determine. What we were shown is exactly what I had stated in this paragraph.

It’s been said before in this thread. If a breeder cannot be held accountable if one of their hets do not prove out, small or large, where does that leave the hobby? Where does that leave breeders? What does that make a breeders guarantee? A guarantee is only as good as the breeder/business that makes it. If they’re not willing to uphold it, or handle their problems professionally, and in a timely manner; how good is that guarantee? Where does that leave the breeders image?

After that… I’m at a loss for words….and a little disgusted…

Andrew, just a point you left out in your breakdown. David sold the snake. Received some compensation for this, no? During the emails laid out just a few posts back it seems very clear that Brian was thrown a loop when he was asked to compensate both. Seems to me, Brian was also talking to Cliff and it was stated that they were close to working something out.

David replied with stating he got nothing out of the deal and wanted compensated on possibilities he could have gotten. He was asking for snakes thousands of dollars more than his original purchase price along with whatever is going to Cliff. I truly do sympathize with David. I do. But come on! As a seller I think it would be very important to replace an animal or any other product a buyer wasn't happy with. I would even refund and depending on the situation and may even ask for the animal back or item.

When Brian agreed to work something out in the beginning of the conversation there was nothing about compensating multiple people. Nothing about compensating on all the possibilities that two different people could have made and profited off of the one purchase.
You know that is ridiculous! It's just crazy. Up to $5K to two different people for something that one person paid $1K.

Look I would be upset. I think David has a right to be if the "het" isn't a het.
I think that it would be good if Brian took care of him. Never in my wildest dreams would I think to ask for compensation more than what I paid.

Honestly, I think it is over the top to seek compensation for multiple people. David SOLD IT. He did make money from selling it, right? Now, he wants to be compensated for possibilities and his buyer also compensated.

That's not right either. Let me tell you. There has been a lot said here about people going easier on Brian because of who he is. I think the resolution being sought is over the top because of who he is.

If it was an average hobbyist or breeder's name up here nothing more than the purchase price would be an acceptable resolution. There are several threads that I can reference here that some buyers have asked for compensations for a bad animal and all the possibilities they could have created with it. They were all told that it was to much by the majority of people here and I agree. It's not fair to either party but you can't claim what could have been. I do understand the frustration of a buyer in that position. I've been there.

Brian did agree to take care of it and I think he should still do something. I just personally think it is the right thing to do.

I do agree the communication was down right horrible. I don't know if it was just the way it was or if that Brian thought he was being taken advantage of and kept putting it off. It shouldn't have happened if either is true.
It wasn't right to leave David hanging. My suggestion would be that if it was just because of his show schedule and other business concerns that somethings like this are delegated much better. You don't let your customers hang out in the wind. When you get big enough to not be able to handle emails and constantly away you need to have someone in a position that can make some decisions for you.

No bias here. I see problems on both sides of this transaction.

 

[Kaa22]

Andrew, just a point you left out in your breakdown. David sold the snake. Received some compensation for this, no? During the emails laid out just a few posts back it seems very clear that Brian was thrown a loop when he was asked to compensate both. Seems to me, Brian was also talking to Cliff and it was stated that they were close to working something out.

David replied with stating he got nothing out of the deal and wanted compensated on possibilities he could have gotten. He was asking for snakes thousands of dollars more than his original purchase price along with whatever is going to Cliff. I truly do sympathize with David. I do. But come on! As a seller I think it would be very important to replace an animal or any other product a buyer wasn't happy with. I would even refund and depending on the situation and may even ask for the animal back or item.

When Brian agreed to work something out in the beginning of the conversation there was nothing about compensating multiple people. Nothing about compensating on all the possibilities that two different people could have made and profited off of the one purchase.
You know that is ridiculous! It's just crazy. Up to $5K to two different people for something that one person paid $1K.

Look I would be upset. I think David has a right to be if the "het" isn't a het.
I think that it would be good if Brian took care of him. Never in my wildest dreams would I think to ask for compensation more than what I paid.

Honestly, I think it is over the top to seek compensation for multiple people. David SOLD IT. He did make money from selling it, right? Now, he wants to be compensated for possibilities and his buyer also compensated.

That's not right either. Let me tell you. There has been a lot said here about people going easier on Brian because of who he is. I think the resolution being sought is over the top because of who he is.

If it was an average hobbyist or breeder's name up here nothing more than the purchase price would be an acceptable resolution. There are several threads that I can reference here that some buyers have asked for compensations for a bad animal and all the possibilities they could have created with it. They were all told that it was to much by the majority of people here and I agree. It's not fair to either party but you can't claim what could have been. I do understand the frustration of a buyer in that position. I've been there.

Brian did agree to take care of it and I think he should still do something. I just personally think it is the right thing to do.

I do agree the communication was down right horrible. I don't know if it was just the way it was or if that Brian thought he was being taken advantage of and kept putting it off. It shouldn't have happened if either is true.
It wasn't right to leave David hanging. My suggestion would be that if it was just because of his show schedule and other business concerns that somethings like this are delegated much better. You don't let your customers hang out in the wind. When you get big enough to not be able to handle emails and constantly away you need to have someone in a position that can make some decisions for you.

No bias here. I see problems on both sides of this transaction.

This is where our similarities come to par, Dennis. I had never claimed David deserves exactly what he was asking for in compensation. Just that he simply should not have been left unknowing of what would come of compensation. Yes, it is unfair for him to get a simple baby Spider het male to replace the questionable het, and lose his initial investment. At the same time, it's not up to my decision whether or not David should get, say, a Desert female in compensation. Those are the exact points I made in my earlier post, before the latter.

Whatever Brian and David agree upon is up to them. It's none of our business, nor concern. What was being brought to light is that compensation was promised, and seemingly retracted. It wouldn't be that difficult for Brian to say a simple no to certain requests for compensation. If Brian felt certain requests were too large, or unjust; all he has to do is give a simple 'no, I cannot do that'.

 

[Ehatcher]

If Brian owes anything. He owes him a snake of equal value to the Spider het Ghost... Nothing more nothing less.

He does not owe him for what he "COULD" have produced.

Seems like Brian threw it on the backburner because dude was being unreasonable... wanting animals valued 2-3 times more than the snake HE ALREADY SOLD.

If i sell you a Ford Mustang, and it breaks down or you arent happy with it, dont expect me to GIVE you a Ferrari in return.

 

[capt._howdy]

ok im just going to say this Brian doesnt owe him jack due to the fact that he bred a het to het. maybe if he bred a het to a visual that would make a BIG difference but come on your not guaranteed to get a visual out of a het to het pairing it could take ten seasons to get that visual from that pairing so come on.

 

[Payara]

If i sell you a Ford Mustang, and it breaks down or you arent happy with it, dont expect me to GIVE you a Ferrari in return.

That would be pretty damn nice if it did work that way...

 

[MAballs.net]

"So I email Brian and talk on the phone and Brian seems like a good guy. I still think Brian *is* a good guy but has *TERRIBLE* customer service."

I am the last person that would ever take Brians side on this but I will say one thing. Brian has done a lot for the reptile comunity as a whole over the last decade if not longer and that is greatly appreciated, judging by the size of his business the reptile community has also done a lot for Brian. That being said, he does have hands down some of the worst customer service out there. Not only if you have a problem but sometimes even when you're just trying to spend more money with the guy. The original post wasn't about genetics, odds, compatibility or any of that. It was about a business man not following thru with what he said he would do.
Look at it this way, this past summer we made countless calls to BHB trying to buy a triple Co-dom male (deff not short money), sent emails, text messages and left voicemail and messages with Lori to give to Brian and NEVER got a call back regarding our interest in SPENDING money with him (We happily spent that cash with NERD after waiting for a call back for several weeks from BHB) Keep in mind that we have bought several animals from BHB in the past (Clowns, Spider het lav, pin het lav,patel het clown, spotnose,pastel lesser....) and still couldn't get a call back from him.
So basically what i'm saying is "Bad guy"? NO, not by a long shot horrible customer service you betcha i guess it comes with growing too fast and maybe wanting to do too much yourself. At the level that Brian operates he should have someone else that can field these calls/emails and relay to him what's going on so he can make a decision on what he needs to address directly and what he can delegate to someone else to handle. I understand he wants to be hands on but you can only spread yourself so thin before it hurts your business more than it helps.

Raphael Martinez

 

[jdshscja]

I think the real, simple issue here is that Brian agreed to reimburse David in some way. The genetics being proven or not seem to be a little less important but I will comment on those in a minute.

Whatever the deal was should be honored even if what is being asked for may seem to many to be a bit much. Once Brian agreed to it, he should follow through if he wants his word to mean anything in the reptile community. On the other hand I'm not sure you can call an email a binding contract unless stated, so if he really wants to back out, I suppose that is within his rights. I just wouldn't want to personally deal with someone that does that. All that aside, months of no contact is just terrible customer service and can't be defended, I don't care how busy you are.

There is still no definitive proof that this is the original snake or that it is not a het.No real definitive proof whatsoever.

To say this is just faulty logic. You can't really ever prove 100% that a het is NOT a het. That's trying to prove a negative. The original seller seemed to agree that it was the same snake by agreeing to reimburse the buyer.

Another thing people have been saying on here that isn't completely accurate, is "breed it to a visual and that will decide it once and for all." And I am paraphrasing that. While I understand in the industry this has become a fairly accepted theory, the truth is a het x het breeding over a large number of eggs/babies provides almost the same chances of producing at least 1 visual as a het x visual breeding.

Now before someone says well 21 eggs(this is the total that this snake has sired, if I have read correctly?) is not enough. A het x het with 21 eggs should give you about a 99.76% chance to get a visual and a het x visual should get you 99.9%. These numbers only get closer with more eggs, since you can never hit 100%. So my question is where do you draw the line of proving a het?

I do agree however that a visual or a proven het would be nice if the females being used have never been proven hets either. I just wanted to clear up this idea that a visual all of a sudden just fixes everything. It has been quite a while since I've had to do math like this on a regular basis so if I messed anything up feel free to correct me.

 

[KelliH]

I think the real, simple issue here is that Brian agreed to reimburse David in some way. The genetics being proven or not seem to be a little less important but I will comment on those in a minute.

Whatever the deal was should be honored even if what is being asked for may seem to many to be a bit much. Once Brian agreed to it, he should follow through if he wants his word to mean anything in the reptile community. On the other hand I'm not sure you can call an email a binding contract unless stated, so if he really wants to back out, I suppose that is within his rights. I just wouldn't want to personally deal with someone that does that. All that aside, months of no contact is just terrible customer service and can't be defended, I don't care how busy you are.



To say this is just faulty logic. You can't really ever prove 100% that a het is NOT a het. That's trying to prove a negative. The original seller seemed to agree that it was the same snake by agreeing to reimburse the buyer.

Another thing people have been saying on here that isn't completely accurate, is "breed it to a visual and that will decide it once and for all." And I am paraphrasing that. While I understand in the industry this has become a fairly accepted theory, the truth is a het x het breeding over a large number of eggs/babies provides almost the same chances of producing at least 1 visual as a het x visual breeding.

Now before someone says well 21 eggs(this is the total that this snake has sired, if I have read correctly?) is not enough. A het x het with 21 eggs should give you about a 99.76% chance to get a visual and a het x visual should get you 99.9%. These numbers only get closer with more eggs, since you can never hit 100%. So my question is where do you draw the line of proving a het?

I do agree however that a visual or a proven het would be nice if the females being used have never been proven hets either. I just wanted to clear up this idea that a visual all of a sudden just fixes everything. It has been quite a while since I've had to do math like this on a regular basis so if I messed anything up feel free to correct me.

Not exactly right, in my opinion. when you are breeding Het x Het, each egg has a 25% chance to contain a visual. When breeding Het x Visual, you have a 50% chance each time an egg hatches that it will contain a visual.

As to where to draw the line at proving a het IS a het? I am not exactly sure, but it would have to be more than a couple of Visual x Het breedings that yielded zero visuals, because many of us have had that exact scenerio play out: multiple Visual x Het yields zero visuals then finally, Ta Da!, on the third or fourth breeding the odds are in our favor.

 

[jdshscja]

Not exactly right, in my opinion. when you are breeding Het x Het, each egg has a 25% chance to contain a visual. When breeding Het x Visual, you have a 50% chance each time an egg hatches that it will contain a visual.

You are correct when speaking about each egg as an individual. That was not what I was doing there. These are the chances that at least 1 baby will be a visual with these pairings producing 21 eggs. I'm not trying in any way to say that a visual x het doesn't give you a better idea faster of whether or not it has proven. I believe a visual x het would only take 7 eggs to produce a 99% chance, whereas a het x het would take about 17 eggs to produce a 99% chance. The point is both pairings will eventually give you the same odds of proving out a het. It doesn't make it any more valid just because you use a visual to get to that point.

I just don't buy it as a reason to back out on the deal they seem to have come to. I'm not saying that is what he is doing but he certainly doesn't seem to be keeping to the agreement.

 

[Casey Hulse]

I would say Brian was well within his right to renig on their deal when David started to use threats to Brians reputation.
Prob. not exact quotes, but close.

"I know how much a big breeders reputation is worth"
"I went out of my way to not make a huge deal about this, I have not made a BOI post or contacted anyone"

Then, long after David made his first claim to Brian he states in the email chain,

"Now my name is attatched to "het don't prove out"
I am doing damage control with my buyer assuring him the het will prove out and I was just unlucky"

Then when asked this question,

Originally Posted by JBartolett View Post
finally, if Brian does give you compensation, and next season that male proves out (stranger things have happened), would you make mention of it on here and send the snakes he gave you back? Not trying to jump on you, just curious

.
David responded

Make mention of it and send the snakes back?? I would start a new thread with a huge apology just for starters. You don't think this crossed my mind at all, that it's been bad odds after bad odds? Of course it has. But after four clutches and 20+ eggs I'm 99.999999999% sure he's not a het. And I think Brian felt the same way which is why he told me for six months that he would do something

.
Clearly David has considered the possibility of bad odds, but he still wants compensation from Brian.
Dennis Hultman is right, if it was not BRIAN and BHB, he would probably have been more than happy with a honeybee "type" for compensation, (and Brian, even though he was not at fault would have given it to "please" a customer) but David figured Brian would fork out many thousands of dollars to avoid having this brought out. I think David saw $$$ signs and got greedy. We all know you can't "count your eggs...", but David did.

 

[Focal]

What I would do: I think the seller should just buy the snake back from the current owner for the original amount and let them divide up the money as they see fit. Then the seller should try to prove the male out for his own peace of mind. I don't think any extra money should be given for "what could have been" because the snake could have died a month after it was born from refusal-to-eat and it would not have been the sellers fault and the OP would still have lost all that potential money.

I also think a few lessons-learned should be taken from this:

*BHB hets are "questionable" and don't expect much customer service. It seems the "smaller" guys are always more eager to please.

*Understand, this is the name of the game. If you aren't willing to take chances, why are you buying hets in the first place? I would bring up the whole "you get what you pay for" thing but I think that's ridicoulous. If you want to be guaranteed high dollar snakes, invest in something you KNOW will prove out.

*Het paperwork should clearly detail some kind of disclaimer regarding any claims to the genetics of the snake. i.e. refunds will only be offered to the original purchaser, or 100% original purchase price buyback if not satisfied with the outcome, etc.

This what I am taking from this thread. Oh, and Dennis H. about hit every nail on the head.

 

[Amelanistic Orca]

Once again: 4 breedings; two virgin real het hypo females; two proven het hypos; 22 live babies; 3 dead cut open to verify they were not hypos.... In an essence; 25 babies in reality; and no hypos... That spider; while an awesome wobbleless little kid; is not het hypo and is absolutely thriving at Cliff's place... Or; it's het for a rare form of?? I doubt it... I will personally "waste out" an adult OG female for a fifth trial; then guess what?? I will say this again unfortunately; cut it up however you want; that snake is not het hypo; I have a son from him as well; great spider, no wobble; bulletproof... Something is wrong.... My stance has been said two or three times in here; and I still stand on that side of the line... David has been upstanding the entire way; Cliff has remained silent; Cliff as the rightful owner of the snake; cannot even be heard by Brian at this point and he has never; I repeat never; made mention of slandering BHB's name; he is deserved something.... He; will take care of David then; as he is deserved something... Man o man; I hope the red quits coming my way... lol... This is a true story; and it is not very funny.....

 

[dumje]

My 2 cents....If I sell you a Het....I have guaranteed it to you....what you do with it beyond my transaction to you is now your responsibility....If I buy a Het. from someone....if they did not produce it...I still want the guarantee from them...not someone else...if they cannot guarantee it then I will not purchase it....the seller or trader of the animal is responsible for the animal....just my 2 cents

 

[dumje]

1 other thing...I have never purchased anything from BHB...and I do not know him personally...

 

[reticguy76]

i have not read this entire thing, which is amazing, because i really have nothin better to do, but i have a question, was the "het" snake ever, every bred to a visual ghost from the line of ghost that the "het" snake is??

 

[Casey Hulse]

was the "het" snake ever, every bred to a visual ghost from the line of ghost that the "het" snake is??

No, only other hets. We have not figured out if BHB lines are compatible with the female hets either.

 

[darkmonkey342]

i dont want to beat a dead horse here, but the very first responce after your post nailed it. you got it from a friend that got it from brian. genetics arent a garauntee. 100% hets give you a 25% chance per egg NOT that 1/4 of the clutch will come out with the trait and when you want the codom AND the recessive to come out, its even lower. also not all ghost lines are compatible with each other.

 

[reticguy76]

so, now my question is, have the "hets" that have been paired with this "het" been proven prior to breeding with this "het" in question??

 

[jdshscja]

Two of the females were virgins and two were proven hets apparently.

i dont want to beat a dead horse here, but the very first responce after your post nailed it. you got it from a friend that got it from brian. genetics arent a garauntee. 100% hets give you a 25% chance per egg NOT that 1/4 of the clutch will come out with the trait and when you want the codom AND the recessive to come out, its even lower. also not all ghost lines are compatible with each other.

This has all probably been stated at least 30 times. I'm pretty sure everyone would be willing to concede these points but they do little to change the main issue of this thread.