Bad Guy BHB reptiles "het" didn't prove out, won't fix it

[snakechaarmer]

My apology, I thought you were referring to me (this thread is moving fast!).

The way I see it is that when investing in an animal for breeding purposes (taking the Het issue out if it) there is no guarantee that it will:
1.) be fertile
2.) be a good producer
3.) survive to become of breeding age

When breeding Het to Het there is no guarantee that:
1.) you will produce a visual in the first, second, even third breeding
2.) when you do finally produce a visual that you will ever make your money back on the initial investment of the Het pair.

That's what I meant by referring to a gamble.

Kelli, thank you for putting it in such SIMPLE terms that everyone should be able to understand. It's very true and very accurate.

Derek - if you're still hung up on some statement about the lottery, again, that was Kelly's analogy, not mine, I simply agreed with her. And, as she just explained how breeding is a gamble in a way similar to the way the lottery is a gamble, I don't think you need any other explanation, nor why either of us should have to explain it to begin with.

And again, I repeat, agreeing with everyone else - this thread is about lack of communication and follow through and poor customer service communications. Not about proving or disproving hets. HOWEVER, if this snake did come with genetic paperwork and in 2-3 years does indeed NOT prove out after being bred to a visual female, then of course the OP should get some kind of compensation. But NOT to the extremes he demanded.

Period, the end, I'm done with this thread and giving it more publicity than it needs. Don't we all have animals to be caring for, anyway?

 

[KelliH]

Don't we all have animals to be caring for, anyway?

Thanks for the reminder, I'm off with my Ipod to the gecko room!

 

[jdshscja]

It is not a guarantee of nothing - it is simply a guarantee of what your chance is. The higher the percentage of the het, the better the guarantee of your chance being. I would not buy an unlabled het if I am not provided up front with the information on what my guaranteed chance in that snake is. 100% hets are of course the best route to go if you can't get a visual, but as I have had happen to me.. 25% long-shots are known to prove out too.

I think you need to look up the definition of guarantee when it comes to the buying and selling of items. "A formal promise or assurance (typically in writing) that certain conditions will be fulfilled, esp. that a product will be repaired or replaced if not of a specified quality and durability".

If someone wants to sell a het with no guarantee they are welcome to but I doubt they will see much interest and definitely not for market price.

The way I see it is that when investing in an animal for breeding purposes (taking the Het issue out if it) there is no guarantee that it will:
1.) be fertile
2.) be a good producer
3.) survive to become of breeding age

When breeding Het to Het there is no guarantee that:
1.) you will produce a visual in the first, second, even third breeding
2.) when you do finally produce a visual that you will ever make your money back on the initial investment of the Het pair.

How can you prove 100% than a snake is not a het? How do you prove a negative? You cant.

Hopefully you can get this point across, I seem to have failed.

 

[snakes335]

I bought a het albino female from BHB in 07, I plan on pairing her with a male albino this year
hopefully I get all normals. Then I can let Brian know and mabey get a albino spyder or even a albino pied for all my troubles. Honestly this is a rediculous thread that has gone nowhere for about 30 pages now. The whole thing is about opinions everybody has one and no ones
is necessarily right or wrong.

 

[Drew Zaun]

Perhaps the biggest lesson here for people who are in the industry is to clearly define the terms of any refund.

In other words, what constitutes sufficient "proof" of a failed het.
What the compensation will be.
Answer your calls and emails.

There is no excuse for the lack of attention the OP got from Brian. That is poor business practice. Was the OP out of line with what he expected? IMO yes, and perhaps or even probably ultimately in Brian's opinion as well but he still rates a prompt reply. He spent enough money, although IMO the amount shouldn't matter. It all boils down to respect and Brian failed to demonstrate that.

I for one appreciate David bringing the customer service issue to light. I would not enjoy attempting to spend money or lodge a complaint with Brian.

All of the side conversations remind me that there are many different opinions in this industry, and in order to protect oneself every expectation conceivable needs to be spelled out. Kind of takes all the fun out of things, but it avoids threads like this.

I checked the BHB website and there is no genetic guarantee on the site. Making your policy public is a good way defuse situations like this.

 

[Paul Kent]

Leigh ,

What you are not realizing is that Brian offered to compensate the OP for what ever reason. Maybe he had a hunch something was not right with this animal I don’t know. But when he did make that offer I feel he accepted that this animal was not what it was supposed to be.

Brian has been doing this a long time, He knows all about the different possibilities that could have came into play with this animal not proving out and he was still willing to offer compensation. With that being said he should follow through with what he was offering. I’m not saying it should be a $10,000 animal or $1000.00 animal I’m just saying he needs to do what he said he would do.

I’m not here debating IF it’s a het or not. My problem is Brian not following through with what he said he would. He was more then willing to compensate until he was made aware of this thread which is bull ____
It was not until this subject became public knowledge on the BOI did he decide the OP was not going to be compensated anything. Paul Wyble @ Steel City Exotics

 

[Ehatcher]

die.... thread....... just..............die.

 

[reticguy76]

this is why hets should never be a true "guarantee". people should sell hets (even 100& hets) in my opinion, by saying something along the lines of, "probable hets, breeding is a result of spider x ghost, all offspring should in theory be 100% het ghost, but you know genetics, its never a guarantee". ive seen albino x albino clutches throw a couple normals, genetics is never 100%, ever. end of that story.

now, i do agree that brian had responded at some point to the op to see what he could possibly do, but brian is long gone out of this equation, it is and should be out of his hands now. i dont think he needs to respond publically at all. should he choose to contact involved parties privately (probably when this thread finally dies down), and do what he may feel is right, then thats how it should be handled

 

[FLTortoise]

The post by Wyblep and reinterated in #509 is all that needs to be said. Sensing a serious issue, Brian agreed to "make it right" and then goes AWOL. Change of mind or heart is BS. If so,man up and tell OP that then. Don't hide in your 50,000 snake building. As a pioneer in the industry and producer of 30,000 snakes per year, Brian needs to man up for the little guys out there and follow through with intentions or advise why he feels he shouldn't. Going silent after leading someone down a path of resolution is cowardly and the worst thing someone could do. Forget all the other parts of this boring and rambling thread. I had a high opinion of Brian before I seen this thread. Giving OP a snake to fix the mix up would be nothing to Brian- he would still have 29,999 to sell.

 

[snakeman101172]

I have read every post. Has actual proof ever been supplied that this male came from Brian ?

I can't get past the fact that if proof has not been submitted by anyone that the male in question even came from BHB all of the other facets of this thread have no real ground to stand on.

 

[bullies&balls]

Holy Shikes !! back to page ONE to check the males history J/K, this has got to be the longest post of conspricy theories, genetics hypothese, and who done its I have ever seen. Mr. Brian in the lab or was it Mr. Cliff in the study. They all used the the candle stick. My head hurts now. Owwwwwweeee. Genetics not proven either way IMO and Brian failed at customer service IMO. Look out here comes Professor Plum

 

[BLS_SxDxMxF]

For all those that are saying this thread isnt about if the snake is het or not, this is the threads title "BHB reptiles "het" didn't prove out, won't fix it " , upon reading this one would assume that this thread is about the possibility of said snake not being het.

anyway, the op has no valid claim anymore as he sold the snake to another person, the new owner should be the one dealing with BHB, but if i have read right the new owner bought said snake knowing that there was a chance of it not being het. but still paid for it anyway. he took a chance hoping to prove it out and now wants to get compensated for his risk. which is fine but he should be the only one getting anything from BHB as he is now the owner of the snake. the OP should have held onto the snake and contacted BHB alone if he wanted a refund for his investment price. now he has whatever money he made off selling the snake and still wants more on top of that from BHB and he wants BHB to cover his bad deal with the new owner as well.

 

[annmikeal]

For who ever added the negative Karma to me... Sorry that you cant add numbers, its not a special power!

 

[nephrurus]

this is why hets should never be a true "guarantee". people should sell hets (even 100& hets) in my opinion, by saying something along the lines of, "probable hets, breeding is a result of spider x ghost, all offspring should in theory be 100% het ghost, but you know genetics, its never a guarantee". ive seen albino x albino clutches throw a couple normals, genetics is never 100%, ever. end of that story.

But... If you breed a visual hypo (or any recessive trait) to another snake, the resulting offspring unless they are visual, ARE 100% het for hypo.

The thing that a lot of people fail to remember is that when you breed het to het the 1:4 odds apply to EACH EGG.

If one of the snakes parents is the visual recessive trait, then its offspring must carry the gene.

 

[Kaa22]

This is really blowing me away, reply after reply.

Ok, someone cleared up the fact that the animal was an 07 Spider het hypo, and not an 09. Why would a breeder on as large a scale as Brian have a 2 year old Spider het Hypo? After that, why were there no if's, and's, butt's, or proof of claims when this happened to be brought up to Brian on the animals genetics not proving out? Obviously Brian had large doubts about the animal as well. Otherwise, why were there no real definitive questions asked by Brian in regards to the clutches produced? Photo's, prior breeding's with the females, etc? Any solid proof....

The point on genetics, or what odds you have with genetics is pure bunk at this point. It was a bunk debate from the get-go. That was decided between Brian and David. If Brian felt it unnecessary to compensate David, why did he discuss compensation with David?

I think most here are forgetting... Brian's a big boy. If he felt he was being taken advantage of; he could have easily said no on any particular request. It's that simple.

Why this thread was created is the simple fact that compensation was offered, and again, seemingly retracted. Not on what David was requesting, or how the animal was sold off. If Brian felt anything was unjust on requests; at his stature, why would he need any of us to tell him what's fair or unfair?

 

[bullies&balls]

Do you honestly believe that Brian remembers the sale of said animal ?? How many thousands of animals has been produced and sold from his facility since then ?? No doubt in my mind when presented with the situation that Brian simply fell into "make it right mode" with the customer. I mean how can you argue with a customer about a animal you most likely don't remember ? After the other owner contacts Brian about SAME snake, then I could see Brian starting to question some things. Does he owe everyone involved with this animal ? Who does he owe ? These are the questions if I were Brian I would be asking myself. BUT, none of us are Brian. None of us KNOW for a fact all of the conversations that have taken place either. Once again more GUESS WORK IS ALL WE HAVE !!! The only FACTS we have are poor customer service, AND THAT IS NOT EVEN A FACT if we don't have ALL the info and conversations. The sankes genetics are not proven for sure as it was NEVER bred to a VISUAL. Brian's dealings or misdealings in this situation are not know either as he has NEVER responded to this carpal tunnel creating monster of a thread. The only thing that has transpired here on post 1-500 + is opinions period end of story !!

 

[Casey Hulse]

The only FACTS we have are poor customer service, AND THAT IS NOT EVEN A FACT if we don't have ALL the info and conversations.

Not entirely true, it is a fact, (check the dates on the email string) that Brian responded in a prompt courteous way to Davids emails, often the next day, until May 26, when Brian expressed confusion as to who he was actually supposed to take care of. He clearly states that he is working things out with Cliff, and seems surprised to find out David wanted compensation as well. In the subsequent email from David to Brian, David threatens Brians reputation and uses extortion tactics on Brian. This is the point where Brians "customers service skills" became lacking. I do not blame Brian 1 bit for avoiding the situation at that point, it was obvious that David had become a "problem customer" (actually, David was not really Brians customer anyway). I think what it shows is Brian does not like confrontations, and knew the situation had become untenable, not that he lacks good customer service skills.
Has the animal in question been shown to NOT be a het? NO.
Has David used blackmail and extortion tactics? YES.
Is Brian still working with Cliff? unknown, but I would think it is likely that he is, Cliff is not involved with this thread.

 

[Izoid]

Extortion? Give me a break. Here is the definition of extortion:

2. Law . the crime of obtaining money or some other thing of value by the abuse of one's office or authority.
3. oppressive or illegal exaction, as of excessive price or interest: the extortions of usurers.

 

[Amelanistic Orca]

And my current favorite part: is the thread is beneath me attitude!! Boy; we should all feel dinky now..

 

[Kristi23]

Not entirely true, it is a fact, (check the dates on the email string) that Brian responded in a prompt courteous way to Davids emails, often the next day, until May 26, when Brian expressed confusion as to who he was actually supposed to take care of. He clearly states that he is working things out with Cliff, and seems surprised to find out David wanted compensation as well. In the subsequent email from David to Brian, David threatens Brians reputation and uses extortion tactics on Brian. This is the point where Brians "customers service skills" became lacking. I do not blame Brian 1 bit for avoiding the situation at that point, it was obvious that David had become a "problem customer" (actually, David was not really Brians customer anyway). I think what it shows is Brian does not like confrontations, and knew the situation had become untenable, not that he lacks good customer service skills.
Has the animal in question been shown to NOT be a het? NO.
Has David used blackmail and extortion tactics? YES.
Is Brian still working with Cliff? unknown, but I would think it is likely that he is, Cliff is not involved with this thread.

I have to agree with this. If Brian is working this out with Cliff, then David probably shouldn't be involved. If I sold someone an animal and it didn't prove out, the first thing I would ask for is pictures and for the animal to be sent back to me for a refund or another animal. The minute the person told me that he sold the animal, I would not feel the need to work with him. He received money from the sale. The new owner is the one who deserves something if the animal is not a het.

I would love to see the e-mails between Brian and Cliff. I think there is a lot left out here.