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Bill Cagle sold me IBD!!!

I don't know what happened, but here's that email again!!


For various reasons I don't bost on the BOI, but I do read them.  I know that you frequently post and noticed that you recently commented regarding the Bill Cagle / Chris Red IBD post.  Of course, just like everyone else I have my opinion on the whole issue.  But it seems to me that no one has expressed any concern over what I would think is the REAL issue.  
The BIG question that no one has even remotely addressed is - WHO was the dealer / breeder at the Atlanta show that Bill acquired the animals from (see Feb 18, by Chris Red)?  Given the time frame that has been stated by Chris Red and what is know about IBD it is VERY possible that these animals were already infected when acquired by Bill.  Imagine the hundreds, possibly thousands of people at the Atlanta show handling those snakes and then going from table to table handling others snakes, shaking the hands of other people handling other snakes, and then in most cases because of the false confidence people have about buying from breeders running home and placing their newly acquired snake right into their collection.  And even if they did not purchase a snake they may have gone right home and handled their own snakes. I think that this is the real tradgedy and no one has even given it the slightest reference.
Actually I am not concerned about identity of that OTHER dealer.  I am also not concerned that someone would have diseased animals at a show.  Unfortunately that just comes with the industry. I am concerned that many of these quarantine and disease control "experts" are actually just junior typhoid Marys.
Anyway I just thought I would share that with and see what your thoughts were on the subject.
Best Regards
 
Neil, hey I dont know if you follow the boa forum or not but we went around about all this over there. Bill was well involved he said pretty much all there was to say. People who want to create trouble are just spinning up these threads over here. Fred just has to much time on his hands and needs to get a job so he has less time to dwell on things and twist the facts.

Jason C, your over paranoid! IBD is not an airborne virus and cannot be spread by your hands. They call it the AIDS of snakes because it can spread the same way, through bodily fluids, mites are the most common way to spread it however it can be spread through breeding and from a mom to her babies etc. etc.

Hey Fred you need to get  a life and stop spreading your paranoid crap about someone you have never even spoken too. You got not balls Fred!!!!!! You bash Cagle ever chance you get, but when he asks you to contact him to straighten this out you run and hide behind your computer.

Where did you get your info about Pete Kahl?? Because, I am sorry but he didn’t slaughter his collection like you would make it sound. I find your lack of knowledge about IBD entertaining Fred, you run you mouth about how your published and  "big name" as I have been told you put it. But, then you get in here and talk your uneducated paranoid crap. Did you happen to know that boas can carry IBD for life and it may NEVER affect them?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> Did you know that??? So if we all live by this paranoia your spreading everyone out their with boas had better kill at least half their collection and have it necropsies. Why don’t you have those Mad grounds necropsied?? That way you can be sure prior to selling them that they don’t have IBD.

You cant tell if an animal has IBD by looking at it Fred or didn’t you know that?? Do you have Vet reports for all your animals for sale stating they don’t have IBD?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>? If not, your a friggin liar, in that little clause at the bottom of all your ads saying "NO IBD". Better start praying it don’t come back to bit ya in the a$$

Fred, I also find it funny how you post saying that Cagle will have his "cheerleaders"  and you go on to talk about how "for someone that didnt do what was RIGHT. Not refunding your money....not giving you a replacement snake ".  Umm, first off, Cagle advertised the animals at a reduced price as SICK animals. Wait, did you over look that point?? The guy bought them knowing what he was getting, they died then Cagle went out of his way to give him animals from his personal stock. or did you over look that point as well?? Along with all the other point’s that don’t fit what you want. This kid made out like a bandit and is still bitching.

I find it funny you talk about cleansing away Fred! You always used to talk your religion in the boa forum. When you attacked that innocent girl in the forum just simply because she bought a boa from Cagle, did your god tell you to do that, attack an innocent girl?? Or do you just violate the religious values your claim to believe and be part of as you see fit?? This isn’t meant to offend other religious people but dont preach it if you’re not going to practice it.

One last point I want to make Fred, have you looked at the boa forum lately??? You notice how many more people there are now. How much more traffic the forum is getting since you guys left?? That shows something!! I think its funny, your little band of groupies slammed me for referring to you as Hitler. Then you guys just proved me right, the whole group of you, on the very same day stop posting for 9 days. Then on the very same day, your entire little group returns to the forum. Then you post your so-called “apology” and the next day the whole group of you is gone and have not been seen since. Everyone comes and goes at the same time, everyone right or wrong defends Fred. Looked to me like you were the leader and they were your little followers, was I wrong for referring to you as Hitler?? Meanwhile the forum flourishes, I dunno looks to me like people are more comfortable now, but that’s just me. Just, thought I would point that out Fred.

So Fred get an education and stop bashing people you have never bought from or spoken to.


see ya
.
 
Jason...My apologies...I never go to the KS Boa Forum (THIS is my "home" lol)...I didn't realize this was hashed out already...I guess I SHOULD check it out once in a while, huh?? Jason....you make some very valid points, and seem to KNOW what you're talking about....please don't get me wrong...I've spoke to Bill a couple of times and we've emailed a couple of times, and he comes across as a VERY NICE GUY!
I re-read this thread and I have to say....you are RIGHT! Fred got A LOT MORE than he paid for! Seeing as Fred KNEW they were "sick" snakes to begin with...Bill went ABOVE AND BEYOND the call of duty on this one! From his PERSONAL collection, no less! That says A LOT about the man's character! One of these days, I'm going to CALL BILL MYSELF and just TALK to him and get his side of this! I'll say it again...I don't think Bill did ANYTHING WRONG! IF the snake died from IBD, and it came from Bill (you STILL don't know that FOR SURE, yet, either&#33<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>, I would think (and hope) that he would do the right thing and have his collection checked out by a vet?? AT LEAST he PLAINLY stated that the snakes were SICK?? Doesn't that count for anything??? ....Neil
 
Well, I still think it is wrong to sell sick snakes, reduced price or not, whether you tell your customer or not. Sorry but i feel that breeders/brokers (at this point I am not sure which category Cagle falls into) that make a practice of doing such things are sleazy. These are animals we are discussing here, not used cars. Think about it.
 
Neil, it wasn’t Fred that got the animals from Bill, it was Chris. Fred just thinks he’s being someone’s savior and bashing Cagle because he got nothing better to do. Fred has never even spoken to Bill about this or any of the situation that happened on kingsnake, he just likes to hide behind a computer and start crap and misrepresent animals that he cannot prove, do not have IBD.
Copied from one of Freds ads:
As ALWAYS:

NO IMPORTS
No Mites
No I.B.D
No LIES
NO DECEPTION
(umm that’s two in one, or maybe three, because unless you have had the test done Fred, which I know ya have not. You dont know that for sure! So lets see, claiming they don’t have IBD when you have no way to prove it, is deceiving and lying to people if ya ask me.)



One thing people gotta keep in mind when dealing with IBD. If it is as bad as some people make it to be, after every show in the country thousands of animals would be wiped out.  For an example lets just say all three of these boas Cagle got at Daytona had IBD. If the decease was half what people make it out to be #1 by this time 90% of the boas in Florida would have it or be dead. #2 many of the top breeders in the country would as well. Think about how many animals were at that show, the show has 500 tables, your talking thousands of animals. Thus far we have ONE animal that has been proven and confirmed to have IBD coming from that show. I can account for more animals that died of RI coming from that show. RI can be passed through the air. Just for a moment think about all the animals at that show, think about all the places they went. Animals from that show went to ALL 48 continental states. I guarantee have shown up in one way or the other at 95-100% of all other shows taking place since then. Well ya know all of us that have gone to shows have now risked our collection (if this is really what people make it to be) we go to the show buy, sell, trade or just simply look. Now, we come home and maybe washed our hands(maybe not) but I doubt anyone changes their cloths and most of us the first thing we do when we get home is walk in our reptile rooms. Well if this desease is half what people make it to be. If you didnt stop 5 miles from your house to burn your cloths and run yourself through a decon shower along with your car and everything else your clothing came in contact with, you know what. YOU JUST INFECTED YOUR COLLECTION!!!! sorry but they are all going to die now
<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

Its not that bad if you think you have an animal with it separate it make sure you aint got no mites and just be careful. As long as you don’t have any mites and take proper precautions, its not going to wipe out your collection, family or the neighbors dog, so dont freak about it. AND DON’T BUY INTO PARINOA!!!!!!!!!
 
Kelli, I agree with ya i dont think people should sell sick ones either, however he properly represented the animals, you cannot knock someone for that whether you agree with them selling sick ones or not, and I am just trying to clear some of the BS as I know it out of this, whether or not you or I like it, the animals were sold as they were Bill DID NOT lie or misrepresent anything, so we shouldnt be discussing this here, the kid knew what he was getting and got what he paid for, end of story, I dont hear nothing from Chris talking about taking his animals to vet prior to them crapping green stuff?? he knew they were sick and that was why he was getting them cheap so why didnt they go to the vet the day he received them?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>? why doesnt anyone ask Chris that huh??? that box with those animals should have been opened in the vets office on his desk, however chris did nothing till they were to far gone from what I read, another thing I know about IBD , more times then not when an animal dies and is found to have IBD it didnt die from the IBD however was just carrying and died from something preventable, so who is to say the IBD isnt just getting the blaim in this case??? and it was something he could have prevented had he taken them to the vet the day he got them?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> to many ifs for me
if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if
 
Kelli...I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you on that point....I don't think there is anything wrong with selling a sick snake, AS LONG AS YOU DIVULGE THAT FACT IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS! There are A LOT of people out there who would LOVE the chance to buy a nice animal at a reduced price and then try and get it better on their own....knowing that if they succeed, they made a GREAT DEAL! I know quite a few people that ASK ME for SICK ANIMALS because they are either in school, or are already vets, and they want the experience?? And besides....if the dealer doesn't have the time to put into giving the animal all the TLC it needs to get better, wouldn't you rather see it in the hands of someone who IS willing to put in the time and extra money?? SURE...there are some instances where you SHOULDN'T sell it (to a novice or a "kid" maybe), but, the vast majority of folks who want these animals...know what they're doing (for the most part) ....I see nothing wrong with it in these circumstances....do you??? ....Neil
 
I didn't want to get involved in this thread.. but Jason,
why do you have such a vandetta against Fred?  Just
as you say he bashes Cagle every chance, I see you
bashing him every chance you get...
You say:
stop spreading your paranoid crap
Did you happen to know that boas can carry IBD for life and it may NEVER affect them?

You know what, personally, I don't care if the boa *can*
carry IBD and never die from it.. I would rather not have
the IBD around in the first place!  
I thought Fred had a good point.. Cagle had the boa that
was confirmed with IBD in his quarenteen room... if I
were him, I'd take a random sampling of boas in that room
and kill them, get them tested to see if the IBD has spread..
That doesn't seem paranoid to me, it seems *safe*.

And about your personal comments to him about the boa
forum, personally I think the traffic is the same as it was
before.. the forum has always had slow points and busy
points, right now it's busy because everyone is breeding
their boas and babies are being born.  I don't see you
posting there anymore either.. I don't know, there is no
point to all this and none of that has ANYTHING to do with
the original point of this thread (which should be deleted
since there are 2 other threads already about it..IMO)
BUT I find it rather sad that you feel you need to attack
him, esp about something like this.. IBD is not even totally
understood... you know the saying "better safe than sorry"?
I feel with something as bad as IBD (ok, it might not kill
off the boas, but say you have pythons and get one boa
and it wipes out all your pythons&#33<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'> a little paranoia is a good
thing.  Call me a cheerleader all you want, I'm just
expressing my point of view, as we all are.
-April
 
Well, Neil i do have to disagree with you, sorry. In my opinion a sick animal should not be sold to anyone, novice or advanced keeper. I know that I would never sell one, nor would I EVER knowingly purchase one. We do not have problems with unhealthy animals in our collectin (knock on wood here&#33<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'> because we are VERY picky about who we buy from and we certainly won't buy from a breeder/dealer who knowingly sells sick animals (no brainer, right?). We happen to have quite a large collection of animals and each and every one of them is extremely valuable to me, not only because they are a big part of my livelyhood but most importantly because they are living creatures and I care about them. I understand about it being time consuming but isn't it our responsibility to make sure that animals that are purchased from us are in good health?? Time consuming or not I would find the time to care for an animal that became sick, NOT try to get whatever money I could get out of it and pass it on to Joe Blow. I would MAKE the time to make sure it is ok before passing it on to someone else. It would be quarantined, diagnosed, treated and HEALTHY before it left our place. Does that make sense?

By the way, I was under the impression that Bill Cagle was the one who bought the snakes knowing they were sick. I thought that Chris Red bought them as healthy animals. I thought that was how Bill Cagle advertised them. If I am wrong about that then I apologize for it but that was how I understood the situation.
 
Kelli....That's all well and good in theory....but, in the real world, it doesn't always work like that...remember...I'm talking about people (like myself) who OWN PETSHOPS and get in hundreds of animals per year! There are times when animals come in sick and the dealer refuses to do anything about it! In those instances...what do you do?? I don't want that sick animal around my other animals! I don't have any other place to put them! You try to do the best you can while they're in your care! But, YOU WANT THEM OUT! Now....revert back to my last post....
SURE...for people with "collections", like yourself, OF COURSE you wouldn't want to buy a sick snake....but, I wasn't talking about "your" situation, although I can see where you might have thought so....just trying to give you the other side of the coin....Hope you understand??? ....Neil
 
Neil-

Np, you're right, having a pet shop type situation and having a breeding facility are really two completely different things.

I don't know what it is like to have hundreds of animals coming in from different dealers, etc so I can only speak from a breeder's standpoint.

Really, if you feel it is okay to sell a less than healthy animal to someone then then that is your choice. If your gut feeling tells you it is right then it is okay for you.  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

We are just expressing viewpoints from two different sides of the reptile business.

Peace
 
Ok I stand corrected, the animals were sold as less then perfect and needed to be quarantined, NOT as sick animals as I have prior said, here is the quote that it came from, the link to the page is below it and its under Tony Basicas post, I apoligizes for my error.

"The 2 adult surinames Chris was sent where sold to him for $400 a reduced price because they where being sold as needing to be kept quarantined and less than perfect.  Chris admits that not only did he not quarantine but when he received the new snake from Bills private collection he brought it and the sick snake TOGETHER to the vet effectively exposing the new snake to the sick ones that where suppose to be kept seperate !!!  Bill has offered to make this deal right and now chris has ended up with 4 adult suriname redtails 2 from Bills private collection"

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/cgi-bin....=1;t=96




April, I dont bash Fred every chance I get I have never once started a thread about him. I have only followed up in threads were Fred is posting his nonsense about Cagle. Fred hides behind a computer, he doesnt have the balls to call Bill on the phone and disscuss all this. Atleast when me and Jermy Stone got into it I was man enough to sit down and talk it out for an hour with him.  Fred just hides behind a computer and keeps spreading uneducated nonsense.

I have to ask, when AIDS was first found should we have gotten pariniod and ran around and killed every person suspected of having it?? Should we have just killed everyone in San Fran off because a few people were found positve and we didnt understand the desease??? Well should we get pariniod and kill every animal off that was at the show???

"I'd take a random sampling of boas in that room
and kill them"
April that is you is your opinion, however the fact remians IBD is not airborn and if he didnt have any problems with mites, killing those animals is going to acomplish nothing more then wasting some perfectly healthy animals. I dont know where you have learned about the desease however some of us have a more knowldge and experiance with it. You need to understand that before you go telling people they are wrong for not knocking off their collections. There is no reason he should have killed anything else in that room.



Fred talked about Pete Kahl, well you know Pete housed pythons with boas that had IBD to see what would happen. You know what happened, NOTHING!!! IBD is the HIV of the snake world nothing more.

"I would rather not have the IBD around in the first place!" how do you know none of your animals have it April??? why dont you kill your collection to find out?? April if you guys look at these animals as disposible then I guess killing all the ones you want is fine. But, I dont look at it that way. You guys need to get a better understanding of all this before you go telling people their wrong for not killing animals that would do NO good.

Yes, April I have posted on the boa forum lately, just not to terrible often, I have a little one to take care of. I dont have a vandetta against Fred, I just simply dont like people who speak in two tounges and are unwilling to admit to their faults, hes never spoken with Cagle or done buisness with him he has no right to bash his buisness practices
 
>killing those animals is going to acomplish nothing more then wasting some perfectly healthy animals.

It would acomplish something.. letting him know (or at least
having more peace of mind) that the IDB did not spread...
which would re-asure his current and future customers.
I never tried to say "I know all about IBD" because I don't,
no one does.. all I know I learned from Melissa Kaplan's
site (which does have some mistakes), from Dr. Jacobson's
IBD page  (click here)
and from reading "diseases of reptiles" and from discussion
groups and threads such as this one. <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

And to answer your question.. do I know if none of my
snakes have IBD? No, I don't know... I just keep my eyes
open for any signs, quarenteen new snakes for a coupe of
months and hope for the best.  
> if you guys look at these animals as disposible
I hope that is not what you got from my post, I do not
see them as disposible (if I did, I would suggest the
"Ball Python test")... but in a case such as this, where a
known boa with IBD is found, I would think it would be
good to check others to see if it has spread.  As I said in
my post, this is my opinon, just like Fred's was.  

I know you haven't started any posts about him, but it
just seems when you come in and post on a topic which
Fred has as well, you single him out and always bash him
and are accusing him of doing to cagle what you do to him.
That was just my observation, take it for what it's worth.
I just didn't see why the "personal attack" type post was
done in this thread when the topic was Chris, Cagle and IBD.
I am not saying him bashing Cagle is good either, but I think
his over-all point is that we need to be aware of this and
think a lot about if we would want to buy snakes from someone
who has been proven to have IBD "near" their collection
and does not seem willing to say what lengths he has since
gone to to make sure the rest of his animals did not
contract the disease.  
Happy herping!
-April
 
I want to say on or two things real quick,

1)I do several shows a year and yes there fresh imports there and people hold them and then move to the next table to hold another animal there so what I do (and the people working for me )is if a customer wants to hold a snake they MUST FIRST use one of the many bottles of antibacterial hand wash and We make sure that they use it again before they move on to the next table and I have been seeing more people doing this.

2)I do agree that it is ok to dell a aniaml if it is sick but only to a point example a cold,minor mouth rot things that or very easy to treat but if a person knows that a animal is very ill or thinks that it infected with something as bad as I.B.D. then that animal should not be sold and I do not care if if was reduced to .10 cents and the buyer was told that it was sick something that can spread no matter how needs to be controled .
 
April this is why I go after Fred, he preaches his religous crap, then he turns around attacks an inocent girl, says hey i am sorry bla bla bla and starts spiting fire again in his so called apoligy, so lets see on one hand Fred is Mr. Religon "god is great" then on the other hand lets attack inocent people, stuff like this
"your eyes did not lie to you or deceive you(lie and deceive are two words he seems to like to keep close toghter). He kept selling snakes, even after a snake that was PROVEN to have I.B.D. was traced to have come from his COLLECTION" (wait a minute....was that his collection the animals were traced to?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> NO its was out of his sale stock, theres a big differance, one is probally in his home in a very nice room with top notch cages and what not while his stuff for sale is in either a whole other room or building, Fred just tries to word things or tries to deceive people into thinking that Cagles whole private collection and for sale stock is infected with IBD in the same room,

once again i will point out April, he tries to make it sound as though Pete Kahl slaughtered all his aninmals when he got IBD and that is not the case, not anywhere close and in a conversation I had with him he told me that if he had it to do over again, he wouldnt put down the animals he did

anyway enough for today I have a little one thats needs so me take care Jason
 
This may be a bad guy ad, But I just want to thank everyone who has posted info on here. I knew alittle about I.B.D before. Now I've learned alittle more. We can all benefit by learning more about anything. Thank you. Some of these post have been really infomative.
 
It seems obvious that the person who should be taking this seriously has only expressed his contempt. I believe that speaks volumes. Unfortunately there are many people in this hobby, novice and proffesional who do not know about this board and will probably never know the risk involved with purchasing animals from this individual. If he informed people that his animals may have had some exposure and to quarantine them, he would go broke. I imagine he says nothing. Personal attacks by anyone are obvious, and responding in kind only detracts from the value of this board. Casey Hulse
 
WOW! Casey! A man with some SENSE! Who'da thunk it? I've been TRYING to get that point across for MONTHS now! Sooner or later...it'll sink in...state the facts and try to get to the bottom of the situation like adults! Everybody might learn something! ....Neil
 
Hopefully Jason,

You are not teaching that little one that needs you, to handle disagreements with such venom. It is obvious from reading your posts that you are more interested in slamming Fred than you are the whole IBD issue. And who the he!! are you to question how religious a man is or make accusations the way you do? The mere fact that you want to attack someone in this way in a public forum leaves no doubt to the reader where the integrity lies here.....which....if you are even  CLOSE to being on the fence on the IBD subject, should be enough to make your mind up on that one.

WAY too many angry people in this world.

Tom Chambers
TC Reptile
 
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