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Bill Cagle sold me IBD!!!

Jason says: thats the plan and simple reason why I go after Fred, he attacked that girl and then proceeds to attack Cagle

Just real quick... yes, he attacked that girl BUT he did come
back and apologize. (more than some people would do)
and she also did accept his apology... which doesn't make the
original attacking post right, but he owned up to it.  He did
continue to attack Cagle at that time, reason
being a close friend of his felt he got "ripped off" by Cagle...
I understand sticking up for a friend (as I am doing) but I
also understand leaving things between the
people involved. The whole point of why I am posting now?
I didn't feel Fred attacked Cagle in his post here, he was saying
we need to all be aware the IBD boa was in Cagle's
quar. room.. I agree, that is important.  Just as it is important
to know it was also in San Diego Viv's collection/or quar. room.
Cagle's name was just in the "headlights"...and I didn't see
anything in Fred's post here to warrant the big attack on him
by you... that's all.  IMO of course
 
Hey Mad Maxx, it's ____!!!!  IMO it doesn't matter why Jason doesn't like Fred.  What does it have to do with the thread at hand??  Nothing, so why bring it up?  If it's that important to ya, Jason and Fred had several civil phone conversations up until the point that he gave that girl a hard time on the boa forum.  So maybe you should know the full story before mud slinging, and when you sling mud, leave me out of it.  I have nothing to do with any of this. Have a good day.  

Danni <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>  SMILE
 
ok...everyone I have one huge glass tank....like 40,000 gallons.
I go around buying highend boas and throwing them in there.
That's right all of them live together in one big....no,no huge snake kind thing going on. Up until this point it has not been a problem...well other then water fall and plant life. So you see even if I wanted to quarantine, I couldn't because the 40,000 gallon cage takes up my whole building and the city getting mad...so there it is the truth...out on the table for everyone!!!!
 
well, i feel that by continuing to post in this thread, we are all keeping this issue alive.  if any questions need to be asked about IBD, we should take them to a discussion forum.
i wont post on this issue or in this thread any further, promise.
and chris, we have already seen your character and how you like to milk people and situations, so i wont waste my time with a well thought out response.
good day,
jonathan brady
 
I was just going to let it go April, but since you insist.

“yes, he attacked that girl BUT he did come back and apologize”
I may have missed it but I don’t remember that girl saying anything. His apology was bull sh!t and all he was trying to do was dig himself outta the whole he had buried himself in. It only took him ten days to do it, after the tides had shifted against him and the majority of the forum had turned on him(all except for his little group from San Diego of course). On top of which if he was so sincere please explain to me why he continued, in his, so called “apology” to take pot shots at Cagle and also at me. I still havnt figured that one out yet. I don’t get that, he apologizes for ripping a girl up for buying an animal from Cagle and continues to rip Cagle up in the apology. “hey I am sorry but you still need to be aware of Cagle, he will sell ya poor animals” I was not the only one that saw this and called Fred on it!

“but I also understand leaving things between the people involved”
Why cant you use the same logic when talking about Fred April???

“He did  continue to attack Cagle at that time, reason being a close friend of his felt he got "ripped off" by Cagle”
your own words say it leave it to the parties involved April, what gives him the ultimate right to attack Cagle and not be wrong however I am for going after him?? Is it because he is your friend and as usual starts the conflicts, bails and leaves you guys to fend for him, don’t you see a pattern here, you got your friends back but does he have yours? He did the same thing in the forum to Paul, Sal and anyone else who helped him.


Copied from Freds post
“Cagles "friends", cheerleadersand "Satisfied customers" who dont even KNOW if their very own snakes were exposed and other people willing to raise the mantra for someone that didnt do what was RIGHT”
April do you call this attacking Cagle?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> I do


“Argeing about the time line, the refund, the snakes exchanged is redundant.”
Why is it redundant because Fred doesn’t like the fact that Bill  did the right thing???

“But Bill Cagle keeps selling snakes.
I guess that chases the virus away.
Selling snakes.
The cure.
go figure”
You don’t consider this attacking him trying to discredit him?? Its one thing to try and make point another to discredit someone and their animals the way he does in this post.

“But just shutting down, putting down snakes, getting others tested and destroying cageing is”
that sounds to me like nothing more the uneducated jealousy

I am just going to leave it at that April however everything I see in there is attacking Cagle. He wasn’t trying to bring up valid points he was trying to be a smart a$$ and bash Cagle from a very uneducated point of view. April think about it I know he is your buddy and all, but the guy gets himself into messes and bails everytime expecting all his freinds to clean up after him. Is this really the kind of person you wanna go to arms for? Just a thought, take care...........



<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>
 
Jason,

So what you are saying is that you are positive, unlike the rest of the vet community, that IBD is transmitted via mites? I would bet you have zero evidence to support your claim considering no one else who has a DVM by there name will say with 100% authority that IBD is a pathogen spread by mites. As I am sure you know, reptile medicine is still a field in its infancy. It has only been in the past 20 years that there has been ANY advances made and that is only because a few DRs have decided to try this or that to dig these animals out of there graves. Last time I was at the vet I set my snake bag next to one of Chris' snake bags and our vet nearly came unglued on me saying "you dont know if his other snakes have got {it}". I would imagine every vet who has a clue about Inclusion Body Disease would tell you that your statement is a little over zealous, however close to the truth it may be.
Lets say that IBD is spread via mites. If that is the case, then Cagle has got worse problems than if it were strictly either a virus or a bacterial issue. Snake mites look for snakes, I doubt viruses or bacteria do (although I could be wrong).
Your statement that I am paranoid is partly true but IMO a healthy problem to have in this circumstance. I want NO potential health hazard near my snakes and I am pretty positive you dont either.
 
If I'm guilty for bad quarantine  for taken snakes to the vet. in the same car,not in the same bag.....what about Cagle taken pictures of them all on the same blue tarp.....just a thought not a attack....
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So what you are saying is that you are positive, unlike the rest of the vet community, that IBD is transmitted via mites? I would bet you have zero evidence to support your claim considering no one else who has a DVM by there name will say with 100% authority that IBD is a pathogen spread by mites.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

By Peter Kahl & melissa Kaplan:  The snake mite, Ophionyssus natricis, has been found in collections in which IBD has occurred but it is not implicated in all cases of infection.


Here are a couple of links
IBD VIRUS
IBD the Disease
Melissa Kaplan's IBD info  (I think this says the same thing as Peter Kahl's Site)
 
thanks....I've reading as much as I can find....I would like to hear some actual reports from people...how long it took to spread from one snake to another..things like that?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>
 
Looks to me like Jason just re-stated the FACTS as Fred had written....you call what you quoted bashing......from what I have seen......they are FACTS. Cagle ABSOLUTELY did what he could to try to make CHRIS whole MONETARILY.....it's really all he COULD do for Chris. It's what he does for the REST of the herp community he wants to continue to serve that is important....what has he done to INSURE that this problem will not continue? SCREW the original carriers....there is a lot more to worry about than Chris' situation....that's what bothers me.........and there has been a lot of arrogance about it.........the real problem here goes far beyond Chris..........and whatever petty arguments that people have with each other really shouldn't detract from the question I think a lot of us want to know: IS IBD PRESENT IN THE COLLECTION OF A WELL KNOWN BROKER THAT DISTRIBUTES NATIONWIDE? It's certainly not Bill's FAULT that this has happened and it sucks like hell to have to deal with it I am sure......but there is now a RESPONSIBILITY to at least make a 110% effort to isolate the origination and test for the presence of IBD in his collection. Maybe that is happening? It just seems like everybody is "hoping for the best." I guess there are a few of us that just don't feel that is good enough......I really hope we are wrong on this one.

Tom Chambers
TC Reptile
 
Everything that I am about to say is conjecture based on the posts we have seen so far.  There have been a lot of good questions asked about who the culprit is in this situation.  There is strength in an argument for culpability of at least 3 individuals: Bill Cagle, Dale from San Diego Vivarium, and Chris Henrich (or Chris Red, or Chris Whatever).

I have not done business with any of these parties nor do I know them personally.  This is not for any quantifiable reason.  I am not discounting the possibility of business with them in the future.  The purpose of this post is simply to organize my thoughts on this issue in such a way as to hopefully allow the readers of this forum to make an educated decision about whom to deal with.

Let's talk about what was done wrong by Cagle.  He sold a snake that turned out to be sick after having purchased this snake from someone else.  I have no concrete evidence based on a one-way cut and paste e-mail conversation to conclude if he led the buyer to believe he was buying a healthy snake.  There is much that can be said about ethics in brokering reptiles, but I'll not go there.  He was also silent amidst public accusation.  We have since found out that he has a very good reason for not posting here.  It is difficult to post when you have been banned.

Let's talk about what Cagle did right.  When he got the animal he kept it in his quarantine building.  (Separate building for quarantine... I want one! :) )  He was careful with the animal and did not allow the infection to pass to the rest of his collection.  When he found out about the infection, he was justifiably upset with the source he got the animal from.  He also sent replacement animals from his untainted personal collection.

Dale from San Diego Vivarium sold several snakes at drastically discounted prices.  We can suppose that Dale was aware of the problems with his animals and was just dumping his collection.  Again, I have no evidence to support this supposition.

Chris bought animals from Cagle that he claims he believed to be healthy at the time at a reduced price.  He did not follow proper quarantine procedures involving these animals.  He has (in the opinion of some) taken this issue a little too far and made unrealistic demands.

What Chris did right in this situation was he brought this to the attention of the public after contacting Cagle and discussing the issue with him via e-mail.

What have we done as members of this Board of Inquiry?  Taken turns crucifying people and being crucified ourselves.  (Note to Jason, sorry for the Biblical reference there. :) )  Please, take the time to make educated decisions about all parties involved in this affair.  Again I am not saying to avoid business with them, but do get the facts as clearly as the facts will allow before attacking anyone about this.  This was a difficult situation from the very beginning.  To those who will invariably feel the need to attack me for stating my ideas here, I live in the United States of America where Free Speech has been granted to me by the constitution.  As nothing that I have posted now or in the past has been slanderous or libelous, you have nothing to attack.

-Morti, No, I did not go to the same English class as Ken Harbert.   <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>
 
I sometimes wonder why I get on here, then I remember, "oh yah, it is to see if there are any new bad guys to beware of." Then I see crap like this everywhere! I really wish Rich would kick the idiots and abusers off of here. This board is meant to post facts in a professional manner. It is not a whiney, slandering, soap opera fest. I have to put my two cents in here. Bill owes this guy/kid (?) nothing. He knowingly bought sick animals and took that risk for a cheap price. I have done this myself, so I am not knocking him for that. I did not manage to save the animal, and it didn't have IBD, and I did not go back on the seller or slander her. The facts are, he took a gamble and lost. Vegas does not give back your losses! It is aweful that the animals had IBD and I know Bill would not have risked all this if he even suspected IBD. If this was handled professionally, the guy should have just clearly stated on here, " I just want to make people aware that IBD is still a major concern. I bought 2 knowingly sick animals from Bill who got them from so and so, and they have IBD. Bill was not aware of this at the time and I took a gamble and lost. etc etc etc."  Bill went above and beyond what he should have done. He had no obligation to replace those animals. Bill is one heck of a guy and does all he can to give the customer more then they should expect. It is very unfortunate that this happened to Bill or the other guy. I hope the initial owner did not know these animals had IBD. If he did, he should be taken out back and shot. If he didn't, then it is unfortunate for him as well. We all know, in this business, this stuff does exist. We know our risks. But to cause trouble for a good man is bull! <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'>
 
I'm sorry but I'll need to hear Bills full story on the animal in question before I'll ever believe he sent out an animal knowing it had ANY form of illness.

This isn't to call the poster a liar, I just know Bill and can't see him knowing sending out a sick animal OR selling an animal he hadn't quarantined.
 
There's at least a little hope for the rest of your animals if IBD is found in your collection.

A liver biopsy or fine needle aspirate may be taken of the live animal by any competent veterinarian and the results sent to a pathology lab that has experience looking for IBD. I recommend Dr. Michael Garner at Zoopath (zoopath.com), but any pathology lab with sufficient reptile experience can do it.

If you get a positive, the animal is a carrier and needs to be put down. If you get a negative, repeat the test in a month. You can get false negatives with this method but it does still offer some hope. The pancreas and kidney may also be biopsied in the live animal through endoscopy and checked for a higher chance of accurate results.
 
Hmm. I'm also wondering if IBD carrier boas could go to a trustworthy "single snake household" as a non breeding pet instead of being euthanized. They'd still be disease carriers and the owners would need to understand that they could never keep or even handle or visit any other snakes. I do know of a few people who are quite happy with their one pet snake and are not snake collectors or breeders.

I can potentially see a lot of problems with this idea (like, the adoptive owners not being trustworthy and ending up spreading the disease anyhow) but it's a thought anyhow. If I had a beloved pet that tested positive, I would want to at least think about it. I understand that a single-cat indoor home is considered one of the legitimate options for cats with serious, incurable diseases that can be transmitted to other cats. It might work for snakes too.

Anyone else have any input on how feasible a notion this is?
 
Mickey_TLK said:
The problem with that idea, is you cannot test a live boa for ibd as far as I am aware of.
Click to expand...

Yes, you can. A biopsy sample is taken of the liver, pancreas or kidney (in that order of preference, or all of the above). A fine needle aspirate of the liver is another possibility, though that is a less conclusive test. The results may be sent to a lab that is experienced in looking for this particular disease. I suggest ZooPath.com as one easy to access commercial lab where the pathologist (Dr. Garner) has a lot of experience looking for IBD in small tissue samples.
 
I wasnt aware of that, untill after I posted my statement, and then went back and look at what you said the post before the one I responded to.

I need to learn to read things fully sometimes...lol, but with a thread this long can you blame a guy.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
 
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