Inquiry Billy Gangemi, Russian Tortoises, HELP!

[Snake-Queen]

My questions are relevant here, not some misplaced discussion thread, in response to your PM, I know little of tortoises and their health … so I couldn't offer any sound advice on them.

Wow! This was a long read …

Some of my observations …

1. I see when you took the torts to the vet, but no mention of the date you bought them.

2. If torts are similar to any other species of reptile, a month is plenty of time for a new owners husbandry and/or lack of knowledge to cause the animals demise. So, the fact that William is offering a refund, despite the lack of communication before hand, is quite commendable.

3. Why did you not obtain his card or other information when you bought the torts? I always get the sellers contact info when making a purchase, I even did so when I first started.

 

[marke1]

Maybe the vet can prescribe an even greater number of shot-in-the dark antibiotics for a pathogen that was not yet identified. The treatment regimen was an everything-but-the-kitchen-sink style. Maybe toss more vitamin A in there, too, since that works so well with chelonians....

that was my thought after I seen the vet bills ...some of those drugs can be harmful , or fatal , by themselves .. my opinion is the vet is the one that cheated her........ it's been my experience that less is more when it comes to exotics , my vets would always do the least amount possible , and their success rate with my animals has impressed me .............. imo , proper care and minimal intervention is the best way to go ......

 

[lydiacourtney]

that was my thought after I seen the vet bills ...some of those drugs can be harmful , or fatal , by themselves .. my opinion is the vet is the one that cheated her........ it's been my experience that less is more when it comes to exotics , my vets would always do the least amount possible , and their success rate with my animals has impressed me .............. imo , proper care and minimal intervention is the best way to go ......

Then, moving forward, do you suggest to cease medication?

If so, what types of actions would encourage Taquito's immune system to fight the increased volume of parasites due to stress?

 

[Mike (The M)]

Then, moving forward, do you suggest to cease medication?

If so, what types of actions would encourage Taquito's immune system to fight the increased volume of parasites due to stress?

I can't really read the handwriting on the vet paperwork. So, it looks like a fecal was done, and it is confirmed there are internal parasites? I don't think anyone is going to recommend going against a vet. But, my concern here is the prescription of baytril, which is typically prescribed for the treatment of sepsis and respiratory infection.

Intramuscular injection is discouraged because it has a tendency to deteriorate the skin at the injection point (this is why it should be administered alternately in different muscles). The best method of administration is oral, but either way, Baytril can also cause kidney issues.

Metronidazole (Flagyl) is appropriate for parasitic infection, as is panacur. The administering of medication is stressful, so really, at this point the best thing you could do for this tortoise is give it some time to decompress.

 

[Chris Kennard]

Then, moving forward, do you suggest to cease medication?

If so, what types of actions would encourage Taquito's immune system to fight the increased volume of parasites due to stress?

I don't understand your thinking here Lydia. You are asking someone who is not a veterinarian if he suggests you cease medication? He, nor anyone else here knows what is wrong with it. Let's say Mark, or anyone here, advised you to cease meds (I don't think he will), and you haphazardly take that advice and as a result your tort dies. Would you be starting a bad guy thread on Mark? You need a GOOD, reputable vet with reptile experience who has actually run the tests needed to assess the problem.

 

[Chris Kennard]

Then, moving forward, do you suggest to cease medication?

If so, what types of actions would encourage Taquito's immune system to fight the increased volume of parasites due to stress?

Just curious. What stress is your tort under now?

 

[EdwardK]

, and you haphazardly take that advice and as a result your tort dies. Would you be starting a bad guy thread on Mark?]

Maybe not but she could certainly complain to a enforcement agency for practicing veterinary medicine without a licence and/or sue him for damages for not being a vet and giving medical advice.

See https://www.avma.org/Advocacy/StateAndLocal/Pages/scope-unauthorized-practice.aspx as this lists by state the potential penalties for it.

http://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo...without-license-criminal-civil-liability.html and here for her ability to sue the person giving the advice.

some comments

Ed

 

[bcr229]

I see when you took the torts to the vet, but no mention of the date you bought them.

Repticon Baltimore was January 21 & 22.

 

[Chris Kennard]

What tests are required to determine if a tort has worms?

 

[Chris Kennard]

I meant parasites, as applies to this tort.

 

[Snake-Queen]

Repticon Baltimore was January 21 & 22.

Thank you. Shame the OP wants to pick and choose what she wishes to answer.

Chris, intestinal parasites are found in a fecal float.

IMO, the vet has been negligent in not preforming tests to determine the type of infection the tort has & blindly prescribing various antibiotics.
It is know that Baytril affects the kidneys and is absolutely the wrong antibiotic to prescribe to a dehydrated animal. If I was the OP, I would be finding another vet for a second opinion.

 

[Chris Kennard]

Thank you. Shame the OP wants to pick and choose what she wishes to answer.

Chris, intestinal parasites are found in a fecal float.

IMO, the vet has been negligent in not preforming tests to determine the type of infection the tort has & blindly prescribing various antibiotics.
It is know that Baytril affects the kidneys and is absolutely the wrong antibiotic to prescribe to a dehydrated animal. If I was the OP, I would be finding another vet for a second opinion.

I agree. The reason I asked is because Lydia told Bill in their text conversation that "both had worms", but also said during the same correspondence that "the doc is trying to figure out what parasites they have but they are not pooping so no dice on that".

 

[Donald C]

Thank you. Shame the OP wants to pick and choose what she wishes to answer.

Chris, intestinal parasites are found in a fecal float.

IMO, the vet has been negligent in not preforming tests to determine the type of infection the tort has & blindly prescribing various antibiotics.
It is know that Baytril affects the kidneys and is absolutely the wrong antibiotic to prescribe to a dehydrated animal. If I was the OP, I would be finding another vet for a second opinion.

I have had some exposure to treating intestinal parasites in reptiles. The vet I brought my animal to was able to observe parasites floating in the fecal sample under a microscope, confirming the presence of them.

Upon confirmation of them, a generic anti-parasite treatment was initiated while a fecal sample was set off to a lab to identify the specific parasites.

This may, I stress the may, be how the OP's vet is proceeding.

 

[lydiacourtney]

If you want to follow up on the topic of immunosuppression you may want to get a copy of Warwick, Clifford, Fredric L. Frye, and James Bernard Murphy, eds. Health and welfare of captive reptiles. Springer Science & Business Media, 2001..

some comments

Ed

Thanks for this. I'll check it out.

Lydia

 

[lydiacourtney]

I can't really read the handwriting on the vet paperwork. So, it looks like a fecal was done, and it is confirmed there are internal parasites? I don't think anyone is going to recommend going against a vet. But, my concern here is the prescription of baytril, which is typically prescribed for the treatment of sepsis and respiratory infection.

Intramuscular injection is discouraged because it has a tendency to deteriorate the skin at the injection point (this is why it should be administered alternately in different muscles). The best method of administration is oral, but either way, Baytril can also cause kidney issues.

Metronidazole (Flagyl) is appropriate for parasitic infection, as is panacur. The administering of medication is stressful, so really, at this point the best thing you could do for this tortoise is give it some time to decompress.

There were worms, dehydration, underweight on the first visit 1-24. (fecal in the office) We then treated them for the next two weeks with the Baytril (every 48 hours). Also Flaygl (every 24 hours) and Panacur (every 7 days for 6 weeks.) I'm completely at a loss about this now. I know that Torterra was having problems clearing something because of edema on his neck, and his neck skin was peeling. It was so hard to watch.. (Not melodrama, or pity card.. just allowing myself to have feelings, Chris)... so this seems like a puzzle piece to me that would suggest the Baytril kept him from clearing toxins and affected his kidneys.

Even so, it seems like a catch 22. Either you give them the meds, and the meds make them sicker, or you don't, and they develop pneumonia. When researching what to do, I saw many posts that suggested for russian Tortoise owners with wheezing to get antibiotics at the vet... and our vet is extremely well known and has great reviews, so I never questioned whether giving all of those meds at once could be the culprit, but retrospectively, it seems a likely cause, in which case I would owe Billy an apology because his advice was the most simple, in terms of post adoption care. (basically: lettuce and mulch)

Aw, poor guy. He hated those meds, too.


ps: Melissa, I wasn't choosing posts, I was working.

 

[lydiacourtney]

I wish

I have had some exposure to treating intestinal parasites in reptiles. The vet I brought my animal to was able to observe parasites floating in the fecal sample under a microscope, confirming the presence of them.

Upon confirmation of them, a generic anti-parasite treatment was initiated while a fecal sample was set off to a lab to identify the specific parasites.

This may, I stress the may, be how the OP's vet is proceeding.

I'm not sure how the fecal was done, but it wasn't sent to the lab, as far as I know. When we returned, they were both pretty sick and he was unable to get any fecal matter, so further parasite testing was not possible. He prescribed more meds as well as shots because of how very sick the torts were, but I now wonder if the excess stress to his system wasn't the culprit.

I think one of the meds currently prescribed to Taquito is going to have to go. I'm weighing the options of what she needs least.

Lydia

 

[lydiacourtney]

wow.

IMO, the vet has been negligent in not preforming tests to determine the type of infection the tort has & blindly prescribing various antibiotics.
It is know that Baytril affects the kidneys and is absolutely the wrong antibiotic to prescribe to a dehydrated animal. If I was the OP, I would be finding another vet for a second opinion.

This makes so much sense, retroactively. I think I may nix the Baytril for Taquito.

 

[lydiacourtney]

not sure you fully understand.

Lydia, in life, do you get to choose who gets to communicate with you? If you have a job, how does that policy work out for you?

Yes. Pretty great.

I'm sorry that everyone didn't just lay out the red carpet for you and say the seller is the worst person on earth. I know you tried for that quite intensely. You simply started this thread, you're not in control of this thread or any other on this site. If you think that you are, let me know how that works out for you as well. But please, continue the "Only nice questions, please." policy. It makes you look like you can't defend your actions (which I'm pretty sure you can't).

please let me remind you how this conversation started. (see attached)
and how I have tried to let people know that I didn't think Billy was a bad guy. If I did, I would have put "bad guy" at the beginning of the post. That would have been easy enough.

 

[Chris Kennard]

There were worms, dehydration, underweight on the first visit 1-24. (fecal in the office) We then treated them for the next two weeks with the Baytril (every 48 hours). Also Flaygl (every 24 hours) and Panacur (every 7 days for 6 weeks.) I'm completely at a loss about this now. I know that Torterra was having problems clearing something because of edema on his neck, and his neck skin was peeling. It was so hard to watch.. (Not melodrama, or pity card.. just allowing myself to have feelings, Chris)... so this seems like a puzzle piece to me that would suggest the Baytril kept him from clearing toxins and affected his kidneys.

Even so, it seems like a catch 22. Either you give them the meds, and the meds make them sicker, or you don't, and they develop pneumonia. When researching what to do, I saw many posts that suggested for russian Tortoise owners with wheezing to get antibiotics at the vet... and our vet is extremely well known and has great reviews, so I never questioned whether giving all of those meds at once could be the culprit, but retrospectively, it seems a likely cause, in which case I would owe Billy an apology because his advice was the most simple, in terms of post adoption care. (basically: lettuce and mulch)

Aw, poor guy. He hated those meds, too.


ps: Melissa, I wasn't choosing posts, I was working.

You have based your campaign here on a moral issue and said you don't care about the money, just the welfare of your torts. That's awesome. Your main concern as amplified to Bill was where the torts came from so your vet could somehow establish what parasites it might have because, according to your text to Bill, there was no poop...no dice. Therefore a fecal test was nonexistent. Now all of a sudden, you're saying there was a "fecal in the office". Why did you lead Bill to believe there was no fecal done? Anyone reading those texts, and your posts here, can clearly see they don't match up.

 

[lydiacourtney]

clarification

You have based your campaign here on a moral issue and said you don't care about the money, just the welfare of your torts. That's awesome. Your main concern as amplified to Bill was where the torts came from so your vet could somehow establish what parasites it might have because, according to your text to Bill, there was no poop...no dice. Therefore a fecal test was nonexistent. Now all of a sudden, you're saying there was a "fecal in the office". Why did you lead Bill to believe there was no fecal done? Anyone reading those texts, and your posts here, can clearly see they don't match up.

visit 1: 1-24, fecal done, it was established that they had worms

visit 2: they were too dehydrated to get a fecal done to check for additional parasites.