Inquiry Black Pearl Reptiles

[Phil Bradley]

I purchased two adult pairs of nasicus from Black Pearl Reptiles and was more than happy with the animals. Communication was prompt and the animals were flawless. Good guy in my book.

 

[sbreeden]

Here's a video of John's Drymarchon presentation from 2014 if you haven't seen it already. Very informative and might give you a sense of what he's like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3jENIVHuak

 

[englishaussie]

Alan Brutosky is the guy to talk to about Dry`s. He IS the man.
I got a unicolor for Black pearl & she was doing great but suddenly died a few days ago.
So i suspect it could be an issue with inbreeding or maybe i was just unlucky.
John is a great guy but! That said i won't buy from black pearl again.

 

[Its_JoeyHello]

Thank you again to everyone with the information, I will link up with the new material and see what I can dig up! Also apologies if the thread got slightly off topic, that wasn't my intention.

 

[Wilomn]

John is easy to deal with, easy to talk to, and knows his snakes. If you have concerns about his snakes, talk to him. If he satisfies your answers, great. If not, also great. You will then have information directly from the horse's mouth with which to decide on your possible purchase.

 

[Stanley M. Ordonez]

Indigo

There is one for sale from blackpearl. Contact the seller-posted a couple of days ago. The seller is upfront with his indigo, I believe you could trust him. Do your homework. If you don't buy this year, then wait. You will be happier in the long run. Stan

 

[TomC]

Don't wait! Buy your inbred indigo now before they get more inbred in the future!

 

[reelcoolfish]

Actually, there are several indogo breeders striving to improve our captive gene pool of indigos. Even going as far as completing genetic DNA testing of the parents to create pairings that are as unrelated as possible. If it were me, I would try to buy from one of them....which I did this year.

 

[CaliIndigo]

I recently bought 1.1 Eastern Indigos from Black Pearl Reptiles, here's my experience.

I bought a female Red Throat Eastern Indigo in Sept 16' after inquiry through the website, and ended up meeting in person with John. The Transaction was smooth and he was easy to talk to and work with.

I bought a male Black Phase Eastern Indigo from Black Pearl at NARBC Pasadena this month.

I wasn't aware of how common or how much of an issue Split Scales are in Eastern Indigos. I previously owned a 2013 Male Black Eastern that was produced by Robert Bruce that I no longer own, and I didn't even think to check the scales of that snake because I had no idea about the scales issue. ( I was aware of Husbandry requirements etc..)

Fast forward to now, I have done so much reading online digging for more information about Eastern Indigos and I recently discovered the issue of Split Scales/Genentic defects in inbred Indigos and it made me take a look at both my Eastern Indigos from Black Pearl.

I discovered what I thought were split scales on both my snakes and I emailed John asking about it and explained to him what I saw. (There are "slits" on both my snakes right above the vent) .. He explained to me that they were Umbilical Scars and that they would fade with age. After doing some more research thats what they turned out to be but after looking more closely at both my snakes again I have come to the conclusion that my Male Black Phase that I purchase is flawless in regards to any scale defects.

My Red Throat female on the other hand, does have about 3-4 sets of scales that look like Y shaped instead just | straight across.

exampled of scales | | Y | | | Y | |


In my conversation that I had with John via Email, He reassured me that what I was seeing were Umbilical scars and He said in regards to the any scale issue, defects.
That I should not hesitate to breed my snakes regardless of the aberration of scales.

He did provide me with the Sire and Dams info of both my snakes, and even a feeding schedule for my red throat and reassured me that my snakes came from unrelated parents, and that my snakes were not related.

Now, I haven't spoken to any other breeders about this issue, and John does seem to know what he's talking about and from my point of view, knows way more about Indigos than I do so I feel like can only go by his word and from what I read/watched/listened to online.

and from what I gathered, Is that malformed scales do happen in Eastern Indigos that are completely unrelated and there have been anecdotal evidence of cases of malformed scales in wild Eastern Indigos.

I do wish John would have pointed out the sclaes on my red throat prior to me spending my money with him, but other than that, John has been easy to talk to, open to any questions I have and open to talking about Eastern Indigos in general.

He reassured me that I need not hesitate when it comes to me breeding my snakes, but his word is really all I have.

Both my snakes seem healthy. My Male indigo is flawless and despite my female having 2-3 tiny Y shaped scales above her vent, she is flawless otherwise and has a great personality and is beautiful.

For now I can only go by his word and am going to trust that my snakes are "fine" but had I known about all these issues, I probably would have picked out my Indigos more closely or perhaps bought elsewhere.

My 2 cents for what its worth.

 

[CaliIndigo]

After looking again at my female red throat, exactly 3 tiny scales above above her vent are "Y" shaped.

She seems to be a healthy Indigo. She has an awesome personality and has been feeding well and doesn't show signs of any other abnormalities.


But like I said, I do wish that was pointed out to me prior.

 

[Phil Bradley]

The connection between split scales and genetic bottlenecks is anecdotal at best. Is there any credible evidence that animals with split scales have noticeable issues when compared to animals with none? The relative frequency with which split scales are found in wild populations of snakes would suggest that inbreeding may not be the culprit (but may exacerbate the condition). It certainly is a good thing that hobbiests are interested in the health of their captives but to cast aspersions on a breeder when you have zero scientific proof of your claims is dangerous at best and opens doors for less upstanding competitors to slander ones name. We need to stick to the facts and anecdotal observations don't cut it.

 

[CaliIndigo]

The connection between split scales and genetic bottlenecks is anecdotal at best. Is there any credible evidence that animals with split scales have noticeable issues when compared to animals with none? The relative frequency with which split scales are found in wild populations of snakes would suggest that inbreeding may not be the culprit (but may exacerbate the condition). It certainly is a good thing that hobbiests are interested in the health of their captives but to cast aspersions on a breeder when you have zero scientific proof of your claims is dangerous at best and opens doors for less upstanding competitors to slander ones name. We need to stick to the facts and anecdotal observations don't cut it.

Hi Phil,

I tend to side with your statement here, but like you said, "We need to stick to the facts and anecdotal observations don't cut it"

based on that statement, you can flip what you're saying on it's head.

Where's the scientific evidence or proof of Indigos in the wild with these scale aberrations? From what I have gathered online, it's only hearsay. Albeit, coming from breeders as well.

I visited East Coast Drymarchon's facebook page, and he is one of the big name breeders of Drymarchon who seems to believe any scale defect is a genetic flaw due to inbreeding. (Based on what i've seen/read on his facebook page)

And I have another Big name breeder of Drymarchon in Black Pearl, telling me it's not a slam dunk indicator of Inbreeding and these scale aberrations happen in completely unrelated Indigo offspring. and to need not worry about breeding.

As a hobbyist and someone who is still relatively new to Drymarchon, This is my first time actually diving deep and doing research as I want to breed them and It's really hard to form an opinion.

The people who's words I would deem trustworthy, are those who have experience breeding Indigos, Those Having seen/handled/worked with wild variants (not capturing obviously). and John does fall in that tiny category so I'm going to by his word.

BUT there are also those who fall into those categories or claim to, that are giving so much contradictory information online.

All this said, I believe there is a bit of over-dramatization about the issue from people who have never even bred Indigos or owned 1 or none, that like to put their opinion online or anecdotal evidence about "Genentic scale defects due to inbreeding"

As someone who is trying to do right by these beautiful creatures it makes it a little tough to form an educated opinion on the matter.

John does seem like a trustworthy guy and has replied to any questions I have had about my Indigos. He has even expressed willingness to share information to help me successfully breed my Indigos and like I said before, I'm going to go by his word and hope all is well.

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone

 

[CaliIndigo]

Just wanted to mention that I hope it does not seem like I'm casting any aspersion toward Black Pearl Reptiles or anyone.

Just trying to share my recent experience of having bought 1.1 Eastern Indigos from them and want to provide the original poster with as much information as I can share so he can be confident when purchasing himself.

Bottom line: I purchased 2 beautiful Eastern Indigos from Black Pearl Reptiles, 1 absolutely flawless Black Phase male, and 1 Red Throat Female that does have 3 "Y" shaped scales above her vent (if that even matters). from the 3 months I have owned my red throat female, She seems to be an amazing indigo and 100% healthy, I have only owned my black phase male about a month, but he also is absoultely beautiful , flawless and seems to be 100% healthy.

 

[Skinker]

I bought my first Drymarchon this year from John at Black Pearl Reptiles and would not hesitate to do business with him again. I did my research, which probably brought as many questions as answers to the table. John was very helpful in providing answers and he sent me exactly what we agreed upon.

 

[reelcoolfish]

I have to say, unless you do scienitific genetic testing on an individual Indigo pair to prove otherwise - the captive Indigo gene pool is so small, that most indigos ARE somewhat gentically related. People breeding unrelated adults together, even if they are from different lines and different parents, are probably still somewhat related. So, breeding two "unrelated " adults together and producing babies with split scales is probably still a result of inbreeding. In the wild inbreeding could easily happen with the bifercated non continous usable habit and limited numbers of indigos. The question is how does it effect the livelihood of the animal that has a few split scales it....it most cases a few split scales probably doesn't effect the animal. But the next step of inbreeding is dwarfism, heart issues, ect that have happened in indogos and does effect the animal.

 

[mandoman70]

I have one black phase eastern female (2015) from Black Pearl. Awesome snake, scales are 'perfect' and I am very happy. I also request numerous pics to the point I'm anal about it, and John was professional about it. He is upfront about the issues with eastern indigos. His service is excellent and he is always there to share his insight when needed. It seems you are doing the right thing and doing all your homework. Good luck from whomever you get an eastern from and I hope it's perfect for you in every way.

 

[snakesareawesome]

I have not purchased from John but he answered all of my questions I had emailed him very promptly and politely. That alone casts a good light on someone. As far as inbreeding, the fact is with many reptiles that are protected or rare in captivity, it's going to be somewhat inbred. If that causes severe disorders, of course the line should be stopped. If it causes a minor cosmetic issue, I would rather have that than no access to the animals at all. IMO people who complain from the sidelines are not the ones who are going to push herpetoculture forward and I tend to ignore them.