Bob Clark (Industry and community irresponsibility?) INQUIRY

[Wraith]

Maybe a tame ball python that has been under a heat lamp all day? Even then...

Not a live Dinosaur.

Technically speaking, the paleontologist's classification system essentially makes birds true living dinosaurs. So buying a bird can equate to buying a living dinosaur. Also, sturgeon are considered living dinosaurs since they have been around for about 200 million years and "dinosaurs" per se only became extinct about 65 million years ago. I'm not sure how easy it would be to go out and buy a live sturgeon though. Best bet is to stick with the birdies.

 

[The BoidSmith]

In a nutshell yes. But if you doubt or question your abilities for even a second, then you're not ready to keep any kind of venomous snake.

Thus my initial question and I believe you have answered well, there's no good beginner's hot snake. Either you acquire the necessary skills to handle hots working with an experienced individual or you are better of leaving them alone alltogether.

 

[richardduckworth]

Thus my initial question and I believe you have answered well, there's no good beginner's hot snake. Either you acquire the necessary skills to handle hots working with an experienced individual or you are better of leaving them alone alltogether.

with common sense and the proper equipment, any of the southeastern pit vipers would be great starter snakes. sure there are those that are psycho, but most are rather laid back and don't freak out when you hook them. american copperheads are great snakes to start with. a/v is available, their venom isn't the most toxic and their yield is low.

i'd not start out with a forest cobra or any elapid but there are plenty who have chosen that route and been fine.

sure, a mentor is great but not always an option.

something else is that after you've mastered pit viper handling techniques, you gotta learn a whole different set of them if you deal with elapids.

if the person will take it 100% seriously, then some non-vens are great but most won't allow themselves to receive the full benefit of the experience.

 

[Junkyard]

Technically speaking, the paleontologist's classification system essentially makes birds true living dinosaurs. So buying a bird can equate to buying a living dinosaur. Also, sturgeon are considered living dinosaurs since they have been around for about 200 million years and "dinosaurs" per se only became extinct about 65 million years ago. I'm not sure how easy it would be to go out and buy a live sturgeon though. Best bet is to stick with the birdies.

I remember that from elementary school, but being that paleontologists are desperate to see a living dinosaur, I would not be surprised if they classified them as such just to satisfied their own desires. They have been known to be very wrong in the past. Besides, as scientists, it is all guess work anyway. Thanks for ruining my joke, I am going to go sulk in the corner now!

with common sense and the proper equipment, any of the southeastern pit vipers would be great starter snakes. sure there are those that are psycho, but most are rather laid back and don't freak out when you hook them. american copperheads are great snakes to start with. a/v is available, their venom isn't the most toxic and their yield is low.

i'd not start out with a forest cobra or any elapid but there are plenty who have chosen that route and been fine.

sure, a mentor is great but not always an option.

something else is that after you've mastered pit viper handling techniques, you gotta learn a whole different set of them if you deal with elapids.

if the person will take it 100% seriously, then some non-vens are great but most won't allow themselves to receive the full benefit of the experience.

The way I see it, these animals should be kept and handled with extreme care and respect. Not having that respect can end in disaster. I have a false water cobra, that is as close as I will get to anything venomous, even though she is handled during regular feeding and cleaning and has not struck at me, I will not put myself in a position to be bit. I do not need to experience all that much as it is, my 9 foot boa is enough for me to handle (well I guess I can't really handle her) and enjoy.

I can sit here and point out how much Bob disrespected that cobra, but we saw the videos. He needs to remember what that cobra is all about, if he mistakenly treats another one that has not been fixed, it may take him out, all it takes is that single moment of being too comfortable.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Nice conversation...btw: where's Pam Robertson? A supermoderator asked her a question which remains unanswered...

A.D.

 

[nora]

with common sense and the proper equipment, any of the southeastern pit vipers would be great starter snakes. sure there are those that are psycho, but most are rather laid back and don't freak out when you hook them. american copperheads are great snakes to start with. a/v is available, their venom isn't the most toxic and their yield is low.

i'd not start out with a forest cobra or any elapid but there are plenty who have chosen that route and been fine.

sure, a mentor is great but not always an option.

something else is that after you've mastered pit viper handling techniques, you gotta learn a whole different set of them if you deal with elapids.

if the person will take it 100% seriously, then some non-vens are great but most won't allow themselves to receive the full benefit of the experience.

There's a risk with any snake, just because a copperhead has low venom yield, doesnt mean the person who is envenomated wont have some kind of adverse/allergic reaction to the proteins. Its always a possibility.

Example.. with tarantulas.. I love love love em.. but I cant (well not suppose) to keep them as I am highly allergic to the hairs on their bodies compared to most people... not just the uricating hairs, but the hair on them in general.. i used to let my guyana pink toe crawl wherever she pleased and my skin would hive up where ever she treaded.. now imagine if she flicked hairs and inhaled them. i would either go into respiratory failure, or die. Same with the chilean rose hair T, her body hair would irritate the living hell out of my skin, but i still kept the 2 because that was a risk i was willing to take...

although i will agree, handling elapids vs pit vipers are 2 totally different stories.

 

[richardduckworth]

There's a risk with any snake, just because a copperhead has low venom yield, doesnt mean the person who is envenomated wont have some kind of adverse/allergic reaction to the proteins. Its always a possibility.

Example.. with tarantulas.. I love love love em.. but I cant (well not suppose) to keep them as I am highly allergic to the hairs on their bodies compared to most people... not just the uricating hairs, but the hair on them in general.. i used to let my guyana pink toe crawl wherever she pleased and my skin would hive up where ever she treaded.. now imagine if she flicked hairs and inhaled them. i would either go into respiratory failure, or die. Same with the chilean rose hair T, her body hair would irritate the living hell out of my skin, but i still kept the 2 because that was a risk i was willing to take...

although i will agree, handling elapids vs pit vipers are 2 totally different stories.

yeah, the only copperhead bite that became a death that i've heard of was due to anaphylaxis thanks to the antivenom. i remember that at first, they left the allergic reaction to the a/v out of stories.

i wouldn't risk much for spiders lol. i recently had to take care of a rose hair that needed a home and that is probably the most boring pet i've had other than my pet rock from the 80's. j/k, i'm just not a spider person. snakes for the win!!!

 

[Tim Cole]

Back on topic...

Looks to me like Pam and Kerry spoke their piece along with everyone else.

The last few posts have been totally off topic.

I move to table this since it appears to have died down.

Hopefully this has been a learning experience for all and not a broadcast to policy and law makers seeing the herp community split on the topic of venomous keeping.

 

[Wraith]

i wouldn't risk much for spiders lol. i recently had to take care of a rose hair that needed a home and that is probably the most boring pet i've had other than my pet rock from the 80's. j/k, i'm just not a spider person. snakes for the win!!!

bah. you must have gotten lucky and didn't get saddled with one of the psykotic bloodlines of rosies.

 

[richardduckworth]

bah. you must have gotten lucky and didn't get saddled with one of the psykotic bloodlines of rosies.

i wouldn't know, i don't know much about spiders. enough to keep them alive and while i find certain species fascinating (crab spiders and their intelligence, european wolf spiders and their sometimes necrotic bites, etc) i really have no interest in keeping any of them.

 

[dsirkle]

Since early on in Johnny Carson's career the showing of exotic animals has been a successful and popular bit on late night television. Humor deriving from the showhost's fear and apprehension of the animal has always been the main source of humor to the bit. This is nothing new at all and has been going on for almost 50 years. I can see where the timing of these televised stunts might make some people nervous with proposed legislation on the table but it should be viewed for what it is, entertainment. If a professional knife thrower was on the show and threw knives at a backstop inches from David Letterman while he feigned fear and nervousness would people be outraged at the reckless and foolhardy act?

 

[richardduckworth]

Since early on in Johnny Carson's career the showing of exotic animals has been a successful and popular bit on late night television. Humor deriving from the showhost's fear and apprehension of the animal has always been the main source of humor to the bit. This is nothing new at all and has been going on for almost 50 years. I can see where the timing of these televised stunts might make some people nervous with proposed legislation on the table but it should be viewed for what it is, entertainment. If a professional knife thrower was on the show and threw knives at a backstop inches from David Letterman while he feigned fear and nervousness would people be outraged at the reckless and foolhardy act?

seen any knife throwing legislation lately?

 

[dsirkle]

No I haven't. But the scheduling of entertainment on television isn't likely to ever be determined by possible future legislation. It is what it is. As I said, I can see how the timing could make some people nervous.

 

[LauraB]

But the scheduling of entertainment on television isn't likely to ever be determined by possible future legislation

Agreed. Likewise future legislation isn't likely to ever be determined by the scheduling of dumb animal tricks on television.
Congress is way too busy with major league baseball anyway.

~ Laura Bolt

 

[Sweeney's Serpents]

Here is my 2 cents on all this "stuff".

1. Every time I have seen Jack Hanna on a TV talk show, he come off as a dope. He has no credability with me and many others after reading bits and pieces on this thread.

2. Whether it's Bob Clark or anyone in this business / hobby that does it harm by acting irresponsible in a public forum should be called on the carpet by everyone in our reptile community.

3. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT! A polititian with a phobia is a dangerous thing. Politians outside of spending every waking moment thinking of ways to get re-elected, look for way to make a name for themselves by protecting us from ourselves. If individuals within our community gives them, the duly elected gas bags, ammunition to shut down something that brings all of us enjoyment then it is our own fault.

One question. Has Mr. Clark spoken publicly on this forum or anywhere about this matter? He should not be left off the hook.

Scott Sweeney
Sweeney's Serpents

 

[richardduckworth]

No I haven't. But the scheduling of entertainment on television isn't likely to ever be determined by possible future legislation. It is what it is. As I said, I can see how the timing could make some people nervous.

people aren't worried about the act spawning legislation. they're worried about the act hurting the hobby by making us "non-experts" look like out of control morons, increasing public unawareness and that leads directly to legislation. as you can see by what happened in texas, it's not a fair or even ethical fight. right and wrong are overlooked for the good of mankind. the good of mankind has never been threatened by venomous snakes, in the wild or captivity. over 99% of the bites in the US are from wild snakes. people don't care and what else can you do when pertinent statistics that prove the hobby isn't a public danger are ignored?

certainly, showing an "expert" who seems to be unable to control a snake, while others cower in fear and spout off misinformation certainly HURTS the hobby.

this isn't about entertainment, most of us see the value associated with stunts like that. this is about so called animal lovers hurting the perception of a hated group of animals.

if people hate something, they simply don't care to protect it. this stunt, at the very least, validated that hatred for many viewers. an out of control killer doesn't make you feel warm and fuzzy inside, and that's what people were allowed to believe they were watching.

this stunt DOES matter and IS a negative thing. every passing second is a volatile point in time for the hot keepers in this country.

like in alabama. there were no laws. some irresponsible SINGLE ADULT sold a cobra and mamba to a 14 year old kid. that 14 year old kept them in a cardboard box in his parents apartment. when everyone found out, it made state headlines and before you know it, exotic venomous snakes are banned without a permit and no one in this state has ever been issued a permit and while a permit system is theoretically in place, it's 100% impossible to get one. there is no application, no forms, nothing. they're banned because of one incident where nothing dangerous ever happened. potentially dangerous, yes, but no incident. no one was bitten, the snakes didn't escape, it was an apartment complex in a rural area in Moody, AL but that's all it takes.

at any given moment, it can and sometimes IS all taken away

 

[dsirkle]

I have personally seen these animal acts on late night television for at least the last 50 years and it is just hard for me to be shocked or outraged by this or to react as though this is something new. I agree that legislation has occurred in the past concerning firearms, dog breeds, etc. based on emotion without fact. I don't know what you would propose to do other than handwringing about the fact that television exists and things are televised everyday that somebody disapproves of. I do understand and sympathize with the idea that you wish that this had not been televised with proposed legislation looming. I am an Endowment Life member of the National Rifle Association. I feel that the argument for gun control legislation is primarily based on knee jerk ideas stemming from fear and ignorance much as you view the anti snake contingent's views. 2nd amendment rights have not been lost in this country and have overall become stronger in the last several years due to the efforts of people who have argued using logic to confront ignorance and by people giving financial support to groups dedicated to supporting the rights of gun owners. I would recommend efforts of this nature to be used by reptile hobbyists rather than a fruitless effort to silence or censor the views or actions of people that you aren't in agreement with.

 

[Junkyard]

Throwing knives at Letterman with his approval is far different then improperly handling of a venomous snake that would probably have not been then if it was given the choice. It is not television that is complaint here, it the fact that two men acted like fools who should not have put on a show such as that. These two men have been looked up by the animal community for years, yet here they are jumping around like Tom Cruise on Oprah.

Will politicians make their vote based on what they saw on that show? Maybe, maybe not. Yet they will let someone like Nichole Richie out of jail after 90 minutes but not two border patrol agents who were doing their job trying to stop an illegal drug smuggler. Some politicians make their choices based on fears and money, if they have no money in reptiles they may have fears.

It is up to those who are looked up to in this industry to walk the higher ground and not be a clown in public. Be what it is, they put themselves in their position and they should hold it responsibly.

 

[dsirkle]

I feel sure that the whole scene was scripted and I feel just as sure that the snake was void of venom. I would also think that Bob Clark is aware of this thread and may give it due consideration when he is next offered a TV appearance. He does have a prominent position in the reptile industry and may heed some respectfully made pleas for responsible handling in public. People will undoubtedly continue to make appearances on late night television with exotic animals and if the script calls for snakes somebody will bring them and there won't be any entertainment value without the foolishness no matter who brings them. As they say "That's show business!"

 

[richardduckworth]

I have personally seen these animal acts on late night television for at least the last 50 years and it is just hard for me to be shocked or outraged by this or to react as though this is something new. I agree that legislation has occurred in the past concerning firearms, dog breeds, etc. based on emotion without fact. I don't know what you would propose to do other than handwringing about the fact that television exists and things are televised everyday that somebody disapproves of. I do understand and sympathize with the idea that you wish that this had not been televised with proposed legislation looming. I am an Endowment Life member of the National Rifle Association. I feel that the argument for gun control legislation is primarily based on knee jerk ideas stemming from fear and ignorance much as you view the anti snake contingent's views. 2nd amendment rights have not been lost in this country and have overall become stronger in the last several years due to the efforts of people who have argued using logic to confront ignorance and by people giving financial support to groups dedicated to supporting the rights of gun owners. I would recommend efforts of this nature to be used by reptile hobbyists rather than a fruitless effort to silence or censor the views or actions of people that you aren't in agreement with.

right to bear arms (from the constitution)

nothing about the right to bear snakes. the gun related issues are nothing alike.