Bob Clark

[Ken Harbart]

Oddly enough, I had considered this to be a dead topic, but since there was a reply directed specifically towards me, I'll entertain it one more time.

Well, I knew from the getgo that my opinion of certain aspects of Bob Clark's ethics wouldn't be a popular one. After all, I had the audacity to criticize an icon of the industry- a person whom apparently many feel is infallible. Thomas Jefferson summarized it best when he said, "Money, not morality, is the principle commerce of civilized nations."

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Many people replied with praise about both subjects, his service and his animals, and though you(Ken) also said he would be satisfied with a purchase from Bob clark,it seems that you couldn't resist putting him down as well...</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>I'm sorry, but I felt that the ethics of selling Nile crocs to 15 year old children, et al., and creating a scene when told that he wouldn't be allowed to break the law at the Arlington expo bore some relevance. After all, when people make an inquiry, they usually want to know both the good and bad.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> personally do NOT think that it was necessary to lash out this way. You could have said that you didn't like the fact that he sold nile crocs and left it at that, but you went a bit further and started a p*ssing match, by incinuating that Bob(unlike the barkers) doesn't care who he sells to or doesn't care about the animals he sells."</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
To begin with, the Barkers were mentioned because it was posted (along with some other misinformation about them), that Bob was superior to them in all aspects.

As for this being a pissing match, nothing could be farther from the truth. Were it such a contest, I would have been responding in kind to the various ad hominem that was thrown out there. On the contrary, this thread has remained quite amicable on both sides of the issue. It had the potential to  degenerate to the level of some other threads which are rather impolite.

The questions that I postulated earlier in this thread still stand. Namely, how many of these crocs do you think actually survive to maturity, and where the next introduced crocs will surface.

Most people in the private sector simply do not understand what becomes of these animals after they're no longer managable. I've lost count, as I know Kelli's husband Steve most surely has, of how many times people who bought crocs without any forethought called zoos, trying to donate/sell them. Generally speaking, they're turned away, and about a week later the croc turns up in some local waterway. Here in Detroit, Bell Isle is a pretty popular spot for releasing crocodilians.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Every one is entitled to their opinion, and mine is that if you don't "mean" to attack somebody's ethics, then learn how to phrase it as such. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I have no regrets about the way my reply was phrased, nor do I make any apologies for my opinion of Bob Clark's ethics.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And stop bellyaching over something that "one person" can't hold the blame for. It is the responsibility of all, breeders, owners, parents, herp society's, and our communities to make sure that previously mentioned incidents do not occur.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Indeed there is a collective responsibility, but that does not negate individual responsibility. "One person" is responsible for their own actions or inactions.

Cheers,
Ken

 

[Lucas Denning]

Ken, I totally agree w/you about Bob selling to minors...or anyone for that matter that has no plans of housing an adult nile.  I think that although one breeder can't be held responsible for a future death or injury of someone down the road....I personally would feel extremely guilty.  If he doesn't already do so, he with out a doubt should check out who he sells these to.  There is a huge difference between an American Alligator and a nile croc.  For one, niles regularly feast on prey much bigger than any person.  As herpers, if we want to continue to be able to keep animals like big snakes and nile crocs, we need to pay attention to who we sell them to.  If a couple people are eatin down the road by these guys, are they going to continue to be legal?   I kinda doubt it.....

 

[King Diamond]

I know a guy who used to sell black fattail scorpions. He doesn't anymore because he claims he sold one to a guy a few years back, and it came around to him by word of mouth a while later that the person died from being stung by that very scorpion. He said he couldn't sleep for weeks becuase all he could think about what that guy dying from an animal that he sold him.

That's what he said, anyway.

 

[King Diamond]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Dale Ward @ June 06 2002,20:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm reading comments by people that are jealous of Bob. No more, no less.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Yep, I am really jealous that he got busted smuggling gila's out of arizona or new mexico or something to that effect at one point in time.

That one has me red with envy.

 

[Dale Ward]

"That one has me red with envy. "

Don't you mean "green with envy" ?  I believe that's the correct phrase

 

[King Diamond]

why yes, yes I do!  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

 

[BigRetics]

Kelli wrote:

"I personally wouldn't buy anything he offers for sale because I don't agree with his "Anything to make a buck" attitude, my morals and ethics are quite different than his, and I am proud of that."



WOW! It must be nice to be a saint!

First of all, most herpers would love to have HALF the success that Bob has had. He works extremely hard and you don't stay in this business  this long if you don't truly love what you're doing. I know him personally and have done business with him for years. BUT, this is NOT a biased point of view...From the first time we met he treated me like a friend, he showed me around his facility and to this day has not ever mentioned the price or asked if I was buying...If I wanted to buy or had questions I asked and he's always happy to help me out with any inquiries or purchases. Bob always stands behind his animals, he has even traded me out temperamental animals early in my python keeping, and never made me feel like an idiot....this goes WAY beyond good customer service, he helps people out in ways that he doesn't have to...The original question asked was what people thought of his animals/service. Well, his animals are incredible, and his service is second to none...Meaning, there may be other equally courteous dealers/breeders out there but he is at the top no matter what.
As far as selling nile crocs it's up to the lawmakers to decide whether or not you can sell or buy them in any given county. It's not Bob's job to be everyone's parent, that's just not fair. He sells quality reptiles, period. He's an honest man making an honest living, and I know if someone had a problem with keeping their croc, he'd do what ever he could to help them.

Paul Snyder

 

[KelliH]

Hey Paul-

I have never claimed to be a "saint" all I am trying to say is that I am a responsible person in the business of herpetoculture. YES, I am very proud to say that I have no need to import nile crocs at cheap prices and resell them to make a few bucks. And YES, I feel that it is morally and ethically wrong for anyone to sell a nile crocodile to an underage person. I also do not agree with someone breaking the law by doing such. Are you saying that you feel that this is perfectly acceptable and responsible behavior? Just because it is Bob Clark that is doing these things does not make it okay. By the way, I know Bob personally also Paul, and my husband has known him for more than 20 years. I have spoken with Bob about this very issue and he knows how I feel about it. Man, I don't care what you or anyone says, you are not going to convince me that it is a good thing for someone to sell the world's deadliest crocodilian to anybody who has the cash to buy it. I feel the exact same way about these shady dealers who sell venomous snakes over the internet to anyone who wants them and then ships them via USPS or Airborne right to their doors. But hey,  it's all just my opinion, you are certainly entitled to yours as well.

Peace

 

[BigRetics]

Thanks for clarifying a few points, Kelli, as well as your stance on the issue. I'm really glad that you actually talked with Bob about your feelings regarding the selling of these crocs, as in many instances people want to shoot off their mouths without ever speaking directly to the source of their aggrevation. And yes, we can agree to disagree...I do however agree with you on one thing...I myself, would never try to raise a nile croc! LOL! But I still believe Bob is a good guy.

Paul Snyder

 

[KLG]

Kelli may not be a "saint" but she's good people & sticks to her guns when so many others don't.  And this comes from having known her awhile, and having seen the way she and her husband do business at some of the aforementioned local reptile shows.  There are few people I've met in the industry who are as straightforward and honest as Kelli w/no BS.

I realize this is a bit off-topic, but couldn't let it pass w/o putting my $.02 in on the matter.

KLG

 

[KLG]

Ooops.  Forgot my whole name.  Kara L. Glasgow

 

[beaglegod]

Never bought from Bob and Im sure his animals are all healthy , nice looking yadda, yadda , yadda..............BUT I have sent questions via e-mail when thinking of making a purchase.

When looking for a breeder, I like to look for breeders that take a personal interest in those that have embraced this hobby,new or long time herpers.It shows their dedication and scincerity towards herpetology.

That being said, I think that if I sent an e-mail to Bob stating I wanted to buy a full grown wild caught retic,fed rabbits stuffed with jalepeno peppers, Id get the following response "Sure when can I send him to you?" Or if I asked something like "Ive only ever had a corn snake and want a blood python, do you think its a good idea?" The response would be "sure you ll do fine." Get my drift

If your experienced and know exactly what your doing I say sure but if you have any questions or need any guidance Id say try some one else for now.

 

[BWSmith]

Well, without direct quoting of others, I will say that I hold a dealer/breeders morals as the primary reason for doing business with them. I consider myself to be a moral person and have very strong beliefs on what I FEEL is moral and right. I have a long list of practices that I feel makes a business unworthy of my receiving my money. They generally focus on venomous and venomoid issues, but include everything from housing to breeding practices. There are many large scale dealers/breeders and many private breeders that I refuse to work with for these personal reasons. Thus, I feel that morals and business practices ARE relevant, not just quality, quantity, or price of stock. I also feel that the criticisms that have been put forth are relevant to this discussion and in no way a flame or attack. Noone is above criticism and noone is beyond having faults. He has chosen his practices, and they have served HIM well. But do to the "checks" next to his name on my personal list and the ones that just got added, this thread has reinforced my feelings and I will continue to refrain from dealings with him. That is a personal choice for personal moral reasons. I will not list reasons other than the criticisms already brought forth as not to turn this into a flame war on other ethical issues. But I feel the criticisms that HAVE been listed by others are valid and in no way an attack on Bob Clark.

 

[Tom C]

That being said, I think that if I sent an e-mail to Bob stating I wanted to buy a full grown wild caught retic,fed rabbits stuffed with jalepeno peppers, Id get the following response "Sure when can I send him to you?"

I highly doubt that Bob gets a bunch of calls for large WC, "het for nothing" retics.

That is a rediculous example of how Bob does business.Bob offers quality CBB normals and Morphs.If you choose for him to find you a WC adult, I am sure he has the connections of doing so, but that would be your choice, not his.

I have a long list of practices that I feel makes a business unworthy of my receiving my money. They generally focus on venomous and venomoid issues, but include everything from housing to breeding practices.

I wasnt aware of Bob selling venemous or venemoid,so how is this relevant??

Why Is Bobs housing and Breeding practices in question??

Have you been to his facility?? I havent, but I would definately like to know what is wrong??

Thanks..

Tom Coonan

 

[BWSmith]

wasnt aware of Bob selling venemous or venemoid,so how is this relevant??

Nowhere did i refer to those specifically to Bob.

I have a long list of practices that I feel makes a business unworthy of my receiving my money. They generally focus on venomous and venomoid issues, but include everything from housing to breeding practices.

If you read it, "I have a long list of practices" and "They generally focus on venomous and venomoid issues, but include everything from housing to breeding practices" Nowhere did I atrtribute any of them to to bob in particular. I further qualified that statement later with "I will not list reasons other than the criticisms already brought forth".

My point was that there are those that were basically saying that ethics does not come into play. I feel it the primary deciding factor in dealing with anyone in this industry/hobby.

 

[Tom C]

Nowhere did i refer to those specifically to Bob.

My point was, If you specifically deal w/ venomous, why even have his name on your list, let alone w/ a few checkmarks??

Maybe you do keep pythons?? If that is the cae then I could understand your point. yet, I havent seen any details on bad housing and breeding practices??

I absolutely do agree about having good ethics in this hobby and industry.
BTW.. Have you ever been to Bobs facility??

If so, what were the issues w/ caging and husbandry.

Thanks..

Tom Coonan

 

[beaglegod]

quote:

"I highly doubt that Bob gets a bunch of calls for large WC, "het for nothing" retics.

That is a rediculous example of how Bob does business.Bob offers quality CBB normals and Morphs.If you choose for him to find you a WC adult, I am sure he has the connections of doing so, but that would be your choice, not his."

-----------------------------------------------------

My example was simply hyperbole and not to be taken literaly, it was merely an outrageous illistration of how I have felt in the past when sending inquiries, and for all I know the replys may have not even been from Bob himself. Perhaps an emplyee since Im sure hes quite busy. Please try and look at the context of my post and youll see Im not bashing him. Im merely stating as a newcomer I like more feedback from a breeder, but I would not hesitate to buy something from him that I had ALREADY kept in the past and was NOT a new species to me, since I know his animals will be top notch,CBB,etc.
As far as delving into a new species I opt for someone I can contact from time to time who will have the time to answer questions or help me with concerns that I cannot find on my own.

 

[BWSmith]

Yes, I deal primarily in venomous. But I also work extensively with boas, pythons and colubrids.

No, I have not been to his facility. I have no desire to. And I have only met him once, several years ago. I was simply validating the critisisms voiced earlier, however you seem very adamanet about wanting to hear my PERSONAL reasons. I know nothing of his caging or husbandry, I disagree with breeding ethics. quite simple. I do not deal with breeders or dealers that inbreed/linebreed a species to what I feel is a dangerous level. Hell, I generally would not even buy from anyone that OFFERS related pairs. I am not anti-morph, per-sa. I simply feel that it is up to morph breeders (and breeders in general) to take their time and preserve the entegrity of the bloodline and genepool. I admire the beauty of some morphs, and may own one if it came in free. And yes I would breed it eventually. But I am choosy enough who I sell to, much less if I were selling or giving away morphs. The same rules I go by for any species would apply. NOONE gets a related pair, if a dealer get some then they are ALL the same sex. Make no mistake, I am i no way saying that Bob Clark is the Devil and he is the only one producing morphs by linebreeding/inbreeding, it is common practice throughout the hobby. But common or not, my personal feeling have not changed. But that is just me. As I said, this are simply MY personal reasons and preferences which you asked me to explain.

 

[Tom C]

As far as delving into a new species I opt for someone I can contact from time to time who will have the time to answer questions or help me with concerns that I cannot find on my own.

I am sure Bob is a busy man, but he is definately the kind of business man that is there for you before and after the sale.

Tom Coonan

 

[Tom C]

I was simply validating the critisisms voiced earlier, however you seem very adamanet about wanting to hear my PERSONAL reasons.

Yeah, I think its best If people do state There "own" personal reasons, instead of trying to validate hearsay.

Bob does offer non-related pairs to breeders, most of his morphs listed on KS do list this as an option to breeders.

Well, to each his own.

Thanks for the reply..

Tom Coonan